SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

You share that with him, with a sense of hope because you are trying to be open and honest. He FREAKS out. Because this is for many men their worst nightmare. That he is the safe boring unsexy predictable man. He now seems more miserable than before and you think that not talking is actually the right path! Or that you should go deal with your stuff on your own.

I hadn’t thought of that. I suppose he could take it that way.

My first though is some men may look at it as a woman feeling safe is her ultimate goal. I know that is high on my priority list to be with someone who I I can be authentically me and safe rather than a transactional situation where I have to be someone else in order to get praise in order to falsely bolster her view of herself.

My guess is your view is more accurate, Pippen.

Because the follow up of what I just said would inevitably be "why do not see the praise I gave you as enough?"

For me, that answer would have been this:

"Because of my lack of self worth, I thought you were just doing what you were supposed to do. I didn’t feel good enough about myself to believe it because you know who I truly am

In my affair I pretending to be someone I wasn’t because the only way I would internalize praise is by pretending to be something more than I am."

Like you said though no matter how you slice it, it’s shame-based distorted thinking.

Very good insight, it threw me but I agree that’s probably more accurate as to how he sees it. I don’t recall that being the way it went at my house but I have been reading here a long time and I recognize it as the more often reaction.

It boils down to this- when we had an affair we made our husbands believe they were not valuable to us and they will piece it together as what are they lacking that we needed. That part I did experience. It took a long time for him to see this was about my lack, not his.

Great catch, Pippen. It also demonstrates that peeling of an onion of how one epiphany breeds the next. And how the feelings of a bs will always be "but why not me for that" even when we are saying we were being super inauthentic.

[This message edited by hikingout at 8:45 PM, Friday, March 21st]

Hikingout,

Thank you for helping me not feel so crazy and alone and for helping me to feel hope. Your post brought tears to my eyes.

One of the things I realized today as I was reading this is that I think I get empathy confused with feeling responsible for his emotions. Everyone says I need to give him room to feel and express himself without freaking out. I always panic because I assume I’m the one who upset him. So I feel responsible and afraid and ashamed. And like I’m not in control, which I hate. I need to work on that. But I seem to delude myself into thinking that’s empathy somehow and then I don’t understand why he’s not perceiving it that way but now I kind of get it. I’m always making it about me.

I am so out of touch with myself, I don’t even know where or how to begin to get in touch with myself. I am totally foreign to me. It may be partly why he felt so closed off from me (in addition to me leaving him in the dark about many things for so long). Maybe I was closed off from myself, not just him. Maybe that’s why he could sense it and I couldn’t.

What you say rings true about me wanting to be the fun girl with feminine allure but I’m hesitant to go there because of what Pippin said about him not liking being the safe one. I’ve always loved how secure I felt with him but it’s like he thinks that’s the worst thing in the world and it makes me really sad. Thank you again for sharing your hard-earned experience and wisdom with me.

I definitely can relate to the problem of coming across as wishy washy and trying to wiggle my way out of this.

Unfortunately, I think I’m being more self-aware at work lately than at home. Not that it’s a bad thing, I just wish it felt at least equal.

It blows my mind how much I was lacking self-awareness, like I was just going around on autopilot. I guess it was because I was intentionally living in the dark.

I’m glad that you can see that I care and I want my husband and my marriage.

I also appreciate you reminding me that being hard on myself isn’t helping. You’re right, it’s me trying to make it better but I guess it’s making it worse because it’s an unnecessary distraction.

I do want to give him what will help him. I’m still having trouble figuring that out which is why I am so thankful for you guys taking the time to read my thoughts and talk through things with me.

I am so afraid. I’ve been able to exercise my faith in my anxieties about work or changing my bad habits but for some reason I’ve been struggling when it comes to this. Possibly because of a desire to control. I need to work on the surrendering part, like you said.

Thank you so much for being a guiding light to me.

Pippin,

You describe perfectly how the last year has been. Moments of reprieve met with confusion on my end when things get tumultuous and exasperation on his end that I don’t understand why.

You hit the nail on the head! That is exactly what happened. I thought I had this great revelation and then he felt exactly how you described. Then I felt guilty for opening my mouth and wished I hadn’t said anything. And so the cycle has gone for the last 14 months.

I definitely thought there were shameful parts of me that I couldn’t see how he could possibly love. The idea of him not wanting to deal with me is really scary but so far he’s shown that he’s willing to be incredibly patient with me. I want this to be over as soon as possible for him while at the same time not rushing through everything and doing a bad job or making him feel like I just want it to be over with for myself. I would love to help him without worrying what it means for me. I guess that would look like relinquishing perceived control of the outcome and that is terrifying to me even though I know it is imaginary and not helping out.

Hikingout, I am curious how he came to see it was your lack and not his? Time and therapy?

Another thing I just realized I’m doing. If someone says something that upsets or scares me and I go into that knee-jerk panic reaction mode, it’s like I’m trying to preemptively influence his reaction to what someone else says. I’m not sure if I’m explaining that very well but I guess a lot of this seems to be coming down to control for me somehow. It’s like I want everything he reads to go through a filter (me) first and then I try to manipulate his perception of it. I don’t know if I’m making sense. I just realized it’s like I don’t even trust him to come to conclusions on his own without me intervening somehow.

[This message edited by Pleasehelpmebebetter at 9:57 PM, Friday, March 21st]

One of the things I realized today as I was reading this is that I think I get empathy confused with feeling responsible for his emotions. Everyone says I need to give him room to feel and express himself without freaking out. I always panic because I assume I’m the one who upset him. So I feel responsible and afraid and ashamed. And like I’m not in control, which I hate. I need to work on that. But I seem to delude myself into thinking that’s empathy somehow and then I don’t understand why he’s not perceiving it that way but now I kind of get it. I’m always making it about me.

Yes! That’s what I was trying to say when I said you are making your feelings more important than his. Great realization!

I am so out of touch with myself, I don’t even know where or how to begin to get in touch with myself. I am totally foreign to me. It may be partly why he felt so closed off from me (in addition to me leaving him in the dark about many things for so long). Maybe I was closed off from myself, not just him. Maybe that’s why he could sense it and I couldn’t.

Yes. In a close intimate relationship our overall shame blocks us from connection. You will see that concept as you continue reading rising strong. And he can still sense that shame and it’s one part of why he still feels you are withholding truth from him. You feel "the same" to him. That and he can still poke holes in your stories which is still a lingering concern for me. That’s why I keep saying let out all the truth you have, because then the poison is gone and can be stitched up. If you stitch it up with the poison still there, it will fester and get infected again.

What you say rings true about me wanting to be the fun girl with feminine allure but I’m hesitant to go there because of what Pippin said
about him not liking being the safe one. I’ve always loved how secure I felt with him but it’s like he thinks that’s the worst thing in the world and it makes me really sad

.

The truth is the truth even if he doesn’t like it. If he thinks you will always appease him how can he trust you?

I get that it’s sooooo positive that he is safe for you. I get that you were playing a role. In some ways we people pleasers are always playing a role. He needs you to not play the role with him. He needs you to get to the truth and just say it. As I said his intial reaction is not his permanent reaction. You have to tell the truth, process it, and help him to process it. Like he said to you yesterday it will feel better to him if you can explain it. Get underneath and really dig.

I definitely can relate to the problem of coming across as wishy washy and trying to wiggle my way out of this.

Yep. Only tell him answers you know. But hood the questions and try and work out what they are.

It blows my mind how much I was lacking self-awareness, like I was just going around on autopilot. I guess it was because I was intentionally living in the dark.

Maybe. But a lot of us do that. I had to realize the same thing 7 years ago. I am way older than you.

I also appreciate you reminding me that being hard on myself isn’t helping. You’re right, it’s me trying to make it better but I guess it’s making it worse because it’s an unnecessary distraction.

Yes. If you wallow in it you can’t get anywhere, he can’t feel safe in talking to you. You are piecing this together very well. Good job! That’s not sarcastic- you have said a lot of hood epiphanies here.

I do want to give him what will help him. I’m still having trouble figuring that out which is why I am so thankful for you guys taking the time to read my thoughts and talk through things with me.

My suggestion here would be what Pippen said. Get curious about yourself. Forget what will appease him because you will be wrong. Focus on getting to the truth, telling that to him and being there as he processes it. He will react all over the place because of being traumatized. Trying to control that will be manipulative and unproductive.

I am so afraid. I’ve been able to exercise my faith in my anxieties about work or changing my bad habits but for some reason I’ve been struggling when it comes to this. Possibly because of a desire to control

.
Exactly. Accept you have no control of him or the outcome. But your best shot at leading a happier healthier life will likely align a lot with what he actually needs.

I need to work on the surrendering part, like you said.
Thank you so much for being a guiding light to me.

Thank you for trying to take it in.
I am not in as much in the weekend but I will make it a point check in for further posts from you.

Oh and how did he learn it wasn’t about his lack? I will tag Pippen in for that question. Mine find out because he had an affair after mine and he had to do some processing of his own lack. So my outcome is unhelpful I am afraid.

Also for those readings I do not recommend that as a means for a bs to process anything, he has gone through extra he’ll that could have been avoided. Same as me.

[This message edited by hikingout at 10:31 PM, Friday, March 21st]

Pippin- I am sorry I keep spelling your name wrong. I will do better!

I feel like I have told him everything I can possibly think of. I have been racking my brain trying to remember for over a year. When I am not trying to however, occasionally I will have a random memory pop into my head that I hadn’t thought of previously. When I met with the therapist last, said she would help us come up with a plan for when that happens. I don’t enjoy it though because I know it re-traumatizes him and shatters his trust in me all over again.
You’re right about me always wanting to appease him. I’ve been like that in our relationship since it started, which was a year and a half before all of this happened.
I get what you’re saying about me needing to not play a role with him. It also feels very unfamiliar to me at the same time.
Thank you for being so encouraging when I needed it the most. When the depression starts to lift and hope starts to glimmer, the smallest thing can set me back and I am spiraling again before I even know it.
I’m not sure how to get curious about myself but I’ll try to figure it out.

It’s simply, why do I do what I do, why do I think what I think, how am I holding myself back? What are my values and how can those shape who I want to be? What are the things I want? Need? Care about? How can I become more authentic and less concerned with repercussions of that authenticity? That last one is hard for me. I am light years better than I used to be but I have to really work on that at times.

It’s just the process of being self aware.

It feels safer for you to do that at work right now, not as much on the line.

I also think when you are not trying to remember you are more relaxed and not being shut down in fear. You have to find a way to let go of the outcome and cling onto what truly is.

Just like earlier, you were starting to get your answer about the drinking but you feared what that would do to him?

There is a difference between what insensitivity does to him versus what telling the truth does to him. The truth can not be altered by how he reacts.

You have been doing some good work over the last several days. Try and get some relaxation, read that book, and it probably would be a great idea if you guys could manage to do something you enjoy together. It is important to still tend to that bond if you can. Taking breaks will help you come up with some of those epiphanies.

Both of you need to keep perspective this is a marathon not a sprint. Take breaks so you are refreshed to go hard again.

A good activity I liked was we got the dr. Gottman question game. I think they have an app now. Some of those questions seem simple but when you sit down and talk about those it can become a very intimate conversation (it’s like memories, things you like, light stuff)

[This message edited by hikingout at 12:34 AM, Saturday, March 22nd]

These questions seem so simple and I am really surprised by how hard they are for me to answer. I will keep working on it though.
That’s a really good point about there being less on the line at work. Thanks for helping me understand that. And a good point about being more relaxed and not shut down in fear. I really have been trying not to clam up as much as I was before.
I guess it’s just that making up answers about why I did what I did feels insensitive. The me myself not knowing and trying to figure it out.
Thank you so much for your invaluable advice. And thanks a lot for telling me out the app! I got it and can’t wait to try it. That sounds really fun.

They are not simple answers. Some of those took me over a year to answer fully. You don’t know or understand yourself well, neither did I.

It’s questions you hold so you can notice the answers. Over time you will uncover a lot of things that will make you understand yourself better.

And then if you can do that, he can do that. It’s frustratingly slow but when you have been people pleasing and guessing what’s expected and hiding and being avoidant those things are underdeveloped in you. This is how it was for me too. I get it.

Thank you for helping me not feel so crazy and alone. I really appreciate you sharing your wisdom. It’s helping me not get discouraged as easily as I was before. Thanks so much for understanding. It really makes such a huge difference.

I started trying to answer some of the questions but so far they are very brief and not super fleshed out yet.

We did play the questions game. I really enjoyed it. It seemed like he did too.

We got into it again. I think it was about him not believing me and I fell into the trap of trying to convince him I was telling the truth rather than just saying, I understand why you wouldn’t believe me. He’s very frustrated with me "not getting it." During conflict, I freeze up and can’t think straight. I’m not sure if it’s because my parents fought a lot when I was a child or what but I know he’s sick of my excuses.

[This message edited by Pleasehelpmebebetter at 1:49 AM, Sunday, March 23rd]

Hi Pleasehelpmebebetter, It took me a LONG time to really understand, believe, and live out the idea that being upset is not a bad thing. It can be an incredibly good thing. When my husband is upset about something, just being present with him and allowing him to have his emotions can be healing for him and draw us closer. I don't mean that I refuse to answer questions, but I answer calmly and reassure him that I am on his side, he's not alone, there is no space between us, (these are things that I have learned are helpful to him) and the emotional flood passes through. I see this also with a friend of mine whose young son died of a stroke not quite a year ago. She will be flooded with grief and howl, but if I am patient and stay near her, the emotions eventually pass (then I have to reassure her that I want to be with her during these times - many friends can't take it). You can learn to be calm when he is having big emotions, do your breathing, do your self talk, pray, name three colors in the room etc. All that mindfulness stuff, to stay present and calm for him. And tell yourself that being able to have difficult, uncomfortable emotions in the presence of one another is intimacy.

I am going to be traveling with my family for a week for spring break and might not check in much (I try not to do SI when my kids are around), but if you'd like, I will keep you in my prayers, and I will check in when I get back. Take care.

One more thing before I go for a bit (I am procrastinating laundry and packing! I will pay for it tomorrow - I remember reading you were raised some kind of Christian? I can't remember if you rejected that or if it was just lukewarm in the first place and not a big part of your life? I'd like to recommend prayer as a regular practice - you don't even need to have a specific God in mind, just a benevolent beautiful mind. For me the most important reason is because there is a powerful force for good that will line up with you when you ask. Another reason, not as important to me but maybe will help you to start, is that the processes of prayer are psychologically sound. I don't have a strict definition myself but many people use the acronym ACTS. A is Adoration - an easy way to do this is to think of something beautiful, maybe in nature, and ponder the beauty of it and its creator. C is confession. Even if it's just to yourself, there are often these little monster thoughts lurking at the edge of your consciousness, and you need to bring them fully into consciousness in order to deal with them. I will give you a non-infidelity example. A few years ago I was tired of academia and taught preschool for a year on sabbatical. I used to take a prayer walk every day at lunch, mostly to deal with anger at my director and the systems that resulted in crappy conditions, but one day I was pretty angry at the kids. It was hard to confess that I didn't like them! But I didn't! I couldn't even bring that thought into my mind, it's a shameful thing for a teacher to not like little kids. However, once I brought that thought into my consciousness, I could start to wonder why. And I realized, they were using each other's names with harshness and a touch of cruelty, and it really bothered me. So I was able to puzzle through the problem, and we did a whole unit on names and their origins, how their families named them, we named our stuffed animals, etc etc. It was wonderful. But avoiding that thought of I really don't like these children! was blocking all of that good work. I needed to confess it. Then T is thankfulness, that's the gratitude practice which has proven results that are good. And the S is supplication, when you ask for what you want. Go ahead and ask for anything you want, even if it's I wish my husband would stop asking me questions! because on saying it out loud and pondering it, you might decide that it's actually not what you want, and anyway, the holy spirit cleans up your requests into what they would be if you knew what you should be asking for. But this would be a wonderful ask in prayer:

I want to make him smile again.

You may find other ways to pray, but the key thing is to invite in that benevolent witness and be in the presence of loving support.

I don’t understand how one goes from being an innocent little child to something so evil. I don’t understand how it could have gone so horribly wrong and how it all got so messed up.

Hmmm. I don't actually believe children are innocent! I love them, I love to work with them, I think they are marvelous, but we all have the seeds of selfishness, self-centeredness, and self-protection in us. Original sin and all of that. Feeling loved by parents or some other adult when you are small can be protective. Being guided to grow in wisdom can be protective. Feeling accepted and seen can be protective. But at some point, we all have to face our selfishness and decide that's not what we want to be, and choose something else.

How do I start clean if I can’t change the past?

Oh boy do I have good news for you . . . (That's a joke about the gospel - gospel in greek means "good news"). Knowing that you are loved and forgiven while you are still a sinner, makes you want to be good, to stretch into the person God made you to be. It's the opposite of working to earn love and trying to figure out how to repay the debt you've accumulated, which you will never be able to do.

And maybe start to write your story? Start with a skeleton of: my mother was controlling and this left me no space to make mistakes. My father was benign but not exactly interested. I went out into the world with little wisdom about how things really were, and not a great model of relationships. My first relationship . . etc etc etc. This is not an excuse-making exercise. This is an exercise in understanding yourself and being honest, curious, confessional. You may go through many, many, many drafts. Try to see yourself as someone whose decisions made sense at the time, given what you were working with, and now that you know more, you can do better.

And now. Laundry and packing.

[This message edited by Pippin at 4:37 AM, Sunday, March 23rd]

Pippin,
Thank you so much for your advice. It’s very helpful, especially the part about feeling the emotion and letting it pass. I almost always forget that’s an option. I’m usually just panicking and trying to fight reality I guess. You are gifted. I hope I can be there for him in the way that you are for people.
And thanks for reminding me about the deep breathing and such. That was really helpful too.
I would love for you to keep us in your prayers. Thank you very much.
I appreciate you taking the time to write this while you were trying to get ready for your trip!
Yes, I was raised Lutheran. I actually was and still am really into it. At that point in my life though, I wasn’t really reading the Bible a whole lot or listening to church online like I do now (I work weekends).
That is a really neat acronym! I’m surprised I haven’t heard of it before. You made very good points about the confession and supplication parts.
That was also a very insightful point you made about children. I hadn’t thought of it that way before but it makes perfect sense.
I guess the problem I’m having with my faith is what a hypocrite I’ve been. Back then I used to tell myself all kinds of horrible rationalizations about how Jesus loved the prostitutes and that sort of silly thing. Now, while I am thankful for God’s forgiveness and know that it is all I really need, I feel so guilty for wanting my husband’s forgiveness so badly. He has said as such but I know it was hard for him. There I go making it about me again.
Yesterday and today have been pretty tough. He’s been really sad. Last night I made him mad but then I was able to just listen to him and hopefully that was helpful. Today he’s been really quiet and I’ve just been trying to breathe like you said and not let my fearful emotions overwhelm me and send me into control-mode.
I hope you are enjoying your trip! Thanks again for reading all of this.

I find that I am getting better at being present with him when he is sad but still need to work on being more mindful when he is mad. I can see I have traumatized him so badly and it’s almost like no matter what i say is triggering, especially if it’s related to my insecure feelings because that’s selfish. This morning he asked me if I would give him an amicable divorce and I said, is that really what you want? And he said no, and I said me neither. I almost feel like at this point we are in a cycle of just hurting each other but we don’t want to. I thought I was doing better but every time I read something that someone says that discourages our being together it really devastates me. Yesterday I tried to tell myself I was comfortable no matter what the outcome. I’m trying to increase my faith and surrender to whatever fate decrees, but to me that feels like I’m giving up so it’s hard. I was so depressed last week and I’ve been so numb this weekend. I can see how much he’s in pain and it’s killing me because no matter what I do, I seem to be making it worse.

[This message edited by Pleasehelpmebebetter at 4:38 PM, Monday, March 24th]

It makes it worse when you can’t handle it. When he is rewarded with his vulnerability by hearing you can’t get out of bed.

That’s not a swipe at you. It is very hard to deal with these feelings especially if you are prone to depression. But what you need to do is find ways to cope.

Know that no answer you have will be the right answer because you can not control the rate in which he heals. You can only control your own healing. The more you think you have any control over his the more you will blame yourself.

He wants answers yesterday. You can not accomplish all his list at once because each of those things take time to get right and show a long good track record for him. Make amends with honesty and by working on yourself. It’s all you can control.

So I am going to switch gears and help you dig in a few of the answers he wants.

Let’s talk about the idea he wanted to bring another man into your bedroom. He doesn’t understand why you wouldn’t agree. I think I understand this because it’s a dynamic in my own relationship. What do you say to that aspect?

I don’t feel safe talking right now because I feel like it’s just making things worse.
I am rewarded with my vulnerability by more guilt.
I know, me me me.
That is very personal and I don’t feel comfortable talking about it because I don’t want to inflame things.
I couldn’t understand why he would want to do that.
I thought it meant I wasn’t exciting for him enough on my own. I didn’t understand why that wouldn’t make him jealous. The version of "love" that I grew up in my nuclear family with was jealousy. I thought if he wasn’t jealous of me, that meant he didn’t love me. I know that is really warped.

[This message edited by Pleasehelpmebebetter at 5:05 PM, Monday, March 24th]

That’s okay. You don’t have to talk about it here. That’s completely understandable.

That’s a fine boundary and that’s not making it about you. If certain things need to stay private while the two of you work through them I respect your right to protect your relationship.
And in hindsight that was a pretty tender question to ask.

I have some theories about it, but only because my husband and I when we were first together had a different arrangement than a typical romantic relationship. We did bring others in. I stopped it when I realized that I would rather be more traditional with him. And so upon discovery of my affair he didn’t understand why I would cheat instead of reopening discussion.

But it wasn’t about sexual desire for me. What I was seeking was not in that kind of arrangement.

That’s all, and don’t worry about it if some of these things are not things you want to discuss here. You can just say that with no explanation because it would be tender to explore things before the two of you have had a chance.

I will try and not steer the discussion and keep responding to things you are struggling with. That seems to be helping open your mind and while it may not feel like it I can see that certain things are coming together for you. Thank you for your honesty.

I really appreciate you being so respectful.

Thank you for sharing about your experience.

It was an idea he had before any of this happened because of his last girlfriend cheating in a previous relationship. I didn’t fully understand at the time that it was because of the trauma he had from that. I also couldn’t understand why he didn’t want me just for himself but I know it is a sore spot for him and that’s why I’m hesitant to overshare.

I know I’m probably giving you mixed signals but I actually appreciate you steering the conversation since I’m feeling directionless and me having a pity party for myself is not going to be productive.

Thanks for helping get me back on track.

[This message edited by Pleasehelpmebebetter at 5:47 PM, Monday, March 24th]

No problem at all, and no worries about not wanting to overshare at all! Anything you think will be made worse by talking on this board instead of with him is probably best. Then you can always let us know where you are struggling in those conversations.

Have you considered trying to undergo hypnosis? I know it might feel like junk science, but what it really does is lower you into a sense of relaxation and clarity. Think of booting a computer in Safe Mode. You can enter the machine without the bugs that are preventing it from operating correctly and potentially fix the bugs (I've seen behavioral changes result from hypnosis), and it wouldn't seem out of the ordinary for someone in your situation who is having difficulty opening up due to shame as well as difficulty remembering what actually transpired.

It could be a very strong bonding experience for the two of you if he's present in the room and can ask you questions when you're in your relaxed state. If getting to the bottom of the unanswered questions is your goal, you might both want to consider trying it.

[This message edited by Icedover84 at 7:42 PM, Monday, March 24th]