SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

How do I start clean if I can’t change the past? I

When I say start clean I mean make a commitment to yourself that you will be completely forthcoming and strive towards the woman you want to become . The reason I confessed on my own is because I wanted to restore my integrity, from that point, it was a clean start towards living wholesomely. And then I took it from moment to moment and resisted my natural instincts towards hiding from it and began striving towards acting like the person I was trying to become. That’s why I said write it down, who you want to be, refer back to it. Believe that this will set you free to become a better version of you.

When you can’t show up for your husband like you describe it’s because you are wanting to hide from the situation. You are making your feelings more important than his. He is showing you his pain, that’s the definition of being vulnerable. You need to return that vulnerability by rewarding it. Not creating more struggle. He needs you to see him.

How do you do it in the face of watching him writhe in pain? You realize it’s the cure. How do you feel safe enough? By realizing despite the hell that you have both been through this year he is still showing up, he is still looking for the solutions, he is coming here and professing his love for you despite strangers telling him there are a lot of red flags. Do you think if you were not fully loved by him he would be giving these chances? Do you see the strength he is demonstrating by continuing to fight for your marriage? Yes, he is very upset and is on an emotional roller coaster. He can’t control that any more than he could control bleeding after being shot.

What I am suggesting is draw the line in the sand by purging anything secretive that you know you haven’t told because you want to preserve his image of you. It’s doing the opposite. It’s letting it all out so you can let it go and that also will be true for him. Will his initial reactions be bad?? Yes, because that is also normal. But if he knows what he is forgiving he seems willing enough to try.

I feel like maybe this hiding has possibly been the reason the memories have been suppressed. You buried them because you can’t stand to look at it because no one wants to be the villian in their story. But truthfully you can stop that narrative. You are a human being who acted on her worst instincts. I do not consider myself evil that I cheated in my husband. I think of myself as desperate and sad, someone who let go of her values to feel good. I became someone who learned that the only way to feel genuinely good is to live her values. And maybe you are like me I had to sit and define them to myself to gain that clarity.

If you can learn to self soothe and be brave, and be the sort of person who can sit calmly and help your husband, who tells the truth even when it’s hard, who stands and fights for the things you want, you will actually begin to dissipate the shame. You will slowly walk into the person you want to become. And through that is the way that you prove your worthiness to yourself and to him.

You hate how it feels to keep hurting him and that is holding you down. I think you are in a state of feeling overwhelmed by your own feelings and that’s actually normal. But realize that those narratives you are telling yourself aren’t helping you. Tell yourself new ones- that you are redeemable, you are loved, you can do hard things. And be kind to yourself, nurture yourself because that is needed for you to have the strength you are seeking. You can’t punish yourself into submission because that’s how you got here. You have to live yourself enough to take a better path.

I can’t say the path will be easy, it’s not. But I can say the path is worth it and will take you to peace.

You fucked up. I am pretty sure all humans do at some point or another. But you are divinely loved and inherently worthy to step into the light and be the woman you were meant to be. The woman who can earn her way back and live a better life.

You need to be the strong one and stop asking him to carry his pain alone. I believe in you, you need to do the same thing. You can be a loving person, an honest person, and empathetic person, a strong person. But it takes tending to and nurturing, not just shrugging your shoulders and saying I just can’t. You really can. I can see it as you have started to actually show up to this conversation.

The way you see the good in yourself is to start doing the good. It’s about building the momentum. You just need to learn to talk to yourself differently. I hope you read the rising strong book, there are a lot of details on how to build that.

In the spirit of one who helped me learn to be gentler with myself when I came here, I will use her sign off phrase: Proceed with valor. If she only knew how many times I whispered that to myself when I was terrified.

[This message edited by hikingout at 2:20 PM, Wednesday, March 19th]

Oh and another great book- "How to help your spouse heal from your affair" by Linda McDonald. It’s a quick read but a good one that you can refer to over and over when you need it.

Hi there, do you have a good sense of why you engaged in these behaviors? They are debasing and not the mark of a healthy person (no judgment from me, I was worse).

I like to think of truth as the FULL truth. Not only the truth of what I did but also how it came to be that the way I acted made sense at the time. It had to be something different than I was a shit person. Once I had some understanding of how I ended up in that place, there was space for self compassion self love etc. and choice in how to be in the future.

I know it seems like a nightmare and you just want it to be over. I would have done anything to be able to snap my fingers and have it be over. But the process, the journey - don’t get me wrong, I would not repeat it - if you can think of it as an opportunity to remake yourself, as a heroines journey from the dark to the light, that might help reframe a little.

Be gentle with your husband. He doesn’t know up from down. One minute he thinks it’s fine, she loves me, and he finds evidence for that, then it flips and you humiliate him and he finds evidence for that and flips again and again. It’s exhausting and terrifying. Be patient.

Pippen- I don’t want to answer for her because I have no idea what the answer is. But I wanted to mention this all happened in 2014, at the age of 24. I truly believe whys are important and value them the same way you do, but because of the time frame it may not be simple to extract that, as she has far more life experience now and it would be hard to understand someone’s mentality then. Other than run of the mill seeking external validation?

Which complicates what normally would be the process, find your whys and fix them. She is instead probably going to need to look at the behaviors she has now, and the lying and use those as context to work on her issues. Not sure- would you have other suggestions with that time frame understood? I think she could use all she can get!!!

Hiking out, thank you. I thought a lot about what you said today while I was at work.
I don’t want to make his feelings more important than mine. Unfortunately, I am in such a dark place that I’m really struggling to see why he or anyone else wouldn’t be better off without me. I’m having a hard time seeing the good I bring to the world and the point in living in it. But I don’t want to give up. It’s just that every time I allow myself to really feel, I feel like dying. I’m not going to act on it; it’s just a very intense feeling.
I know he loves me and I am thankful for that but I can’t see why or how. Yes, he is the strongest person I know.
People have been tolerating me but I’ve been acting out a little bit at work. They’ve been making jokes about how I’ve been. They don’t know what’s going on.
You make some very good points.
Thank you for believing in me. The slightest word against me can send me into a spiral right now so I really appreciate it. I also appreciate your honesty because I know I won’t be able to grow without it.
I’ve noticed that I’ve made a lot of excuses but I didn’t realize I was making them while I was making them before if that makes sense.
I am currently reading through Rising Strong, maybe about a third of the way through.
I can’t tell you how many times my husband has asked me to re-read how to help your spouse heal from an affair. My memory is terrible. It’s like nothing sticks. And it’s not for lack of caring. I don’t know what’s wrong with me.
Hi Pippin;
Thanks for your reply.
That is a scary question for me because I’m afraid of answering it in a way that doesn’t show accountability. I would be open to you all correcting my thinking as I’m sure it’s probably off base and I apologize in advance.
Im sorry if context is irrelevant. I was 24, in my first relationship. We had just moved out on our own and I had just finished college and gotten my first job as a cart girl at a country club. One of the men was a customer, let’s call him P, who bought me drinks and gave me money in exchange for allowing him to put his hands on me. The affection I had for him was kind of like that of a father (my dad worked a lot when I was growing up, not sure if that’s relevant. Don’t want to make excuses). I hope this isn’t too graphic. I’m not sure if I’m supposed to be sharing this. He would finger me. He would also pinch my pussy in a way that hurt. I was a people pleaser. I was afraid to say no. I didn’t have any boundaries. I didn’t have any self worth. I also was afraid of being controlled because my mother was very controlling. Unfortunately, even though I try not to be like her, I have turned out to be a very controlling person myself.
Another one of the people was a coworker, we’ll call J, someone who I found less threatening than this first man. For some reason, I felt more in control with him. I could draw lines with him that we didn’t cross. I figured I was already ruined to the point of fingering but I wasn’t going to go beyond that. I also extracted some sick pleasure from withholding what he wanted from him. I was simultaneously attracted to and repulsed by him. I resented him for the advances he made towards me that I failed to adequately turn down. I know I was and am very messed up.
The last couple of coworkers were a one time incident (a male, B, and a female, K). They both fingered me in the back of a car after a concert. I was not attracted to either one of them. I have never been attracted to women. I still don’t know why I let that happen. It’s very hard to write all of this as I am so ashamed and also afraid of screwing this up.
Thank you for being so understanding. It really helps a lot.
Back to hiking out, I am working on trying to be more honest with people. I was adverse to it before because I was raised to believe that would hurt people’s feelings. Just like I used to think back then that I would hurt their feelings by turning down their sexual advances. I thought as long as I didn’t let it go past a certain point, I’d maintain a measure of control over it. I also saw it as some kind of weird form of charity. I know how warped this must sound. Thanks for listening.

Hi again, I'm sorry you are struggling so much. I remember the hardest days for me were awful. I didn't want to die, exactly, but I definitely didn't want to wake up in the morning. I have always been a reader and I couldn't concentrate on books, podcasts, TV shows, nothing. For a couple of years. It got better little by little, in such tiny bits I couldn't tell at first. I hope that happens (is happening) for you.

I'm glad you wrote out what happened ten years ago, I know it probably felt awful to write about it. I actually had a different question in mind. I wondered less what exactly happened (though it's good to be able to state the facts),
but more what led you to the place where that kind of behavior made sense. I suppose the first man is probably the key, because after the ones after that were probably related - you had already degraded yourself to the point of letting a man put his fingers inside of you, so that felt like nothing, but you could regain a sense of control by limiting it to that. And then the next. But what led to the first man? I suppose you might have just wanted drinks and money, but somehow that doesn't add up for me. I have several daughters, and my husband is attentive, loving, interested, and protective of them. They have different temperaments, but each of them has a strong sense that any man who is romantically interested in them had better be good to them. I think that's at least part from the attention from their father. So how did you end up with such a transactional view of sex, how were you uninstructed in being on guard against older wealthy entitled men, casual about the relationship you were in, etc. Who was the 24 year old who did that and what have you done to change (or what do you think you need to do to change) other than not doing the behavior?

HikingOut, even if it was a long time ago, I think it's really relevant to piece through it. I had terrible sexual behavior until I married my husband 25+ years ago. Then I figured I would never do THAT again. But when my life got hard, all of it came roaring back after 20 years of "faithful" marriage where I had never had any interest another man. I've described it as thinking I was locking the past in a box and dropping it to the bottom of the ocean. Even if the behavior is fine on the exterior, it's the unresolved stuff that led to it. A misunderstanding of the nature of relationships at best. She's 34 now, but in a sense she's still 24, 14, 4, etc.

Also, can you give a specific example of this:

Every time I try to be vulnerable, I feel like I botch it up and it makes me recoil.

Just so I can tell what that looks like for you right now.

I just keep messing up with my husband. Everything I say and do is wrong. My thoughts aren’t even right

I think that if you judge whether you are saying and doing the wrong thing by his reaction, you will feel like you are wrong all the time, because right now his reaction will be all over the place. The only way you can rest assured that you are saying and doing the right thing is if you are honest, truthful, looking for insight about your thinking patterns and behavior, willing to let him have his thoughts and emotions without having to manage your response. In time, those things will build a strong foundation that he can start to trust (although he may decide he can't stay with you). Learning how to tolerate distress and sit with uncomfortable emotions, and learn that you will not die from them, is helpful. I know it feels like death and I know it feels like things will never be better again. HikingOut is right, being super present in the now (in whatever way you find to do that, mine is prayer) and a strong gratitude practice will help a lot.

[This message edited by Pippin at 4:17 AM, Thursday, March 20th]

Pippin,

Thank you so much for your kindness and understanding. I’ve found kindness but I haven’t found understanding anywhere else yet. Yes, I can definitely relate to having difficulty focusing on books or shows which is especially hard when they’re sometimes related to this matter.

It was pretty tough to write about so I really appreciate your encouragement. I have never felt this heard before and it’s a big deal to me.

My father was very loving but not particularly attentive, interested or protective. He worked a lot. I really only saw him in the morning when he would take me to school and sometimes at night when he would put me to bed. Every once in a while we’d make pancakes or go for donuts or ice cream on the weekends. I always thought he wanted a son and would take more interest in me if I was a boy. I took up swimming and was very good at it to try and get his attention (he used to swim growing up as well). I can’t tell you how many swim meets he promised to show up to and missed.

My mother was also very jealous of any attention I got from him. To this day, I can hardly talk on the phone with him without having to merge her into the call with us. Unfortunately, jealousy is another awful trait that I have as well.

I didn’t get the sense that my dad thought a man had better be good to me, more that I had better be good to the man. He was always very conservative about those things and was heartbroken when I told him at 18 that I didn’t want to get married (probably because my parents fought my entire childhood).

My mother on the other hand gave me a pretty liberal view of sex. When I was in 8th grade, she told me her uncle had abused her as a child and somehow I thought that was my fault. I was apologizing to her for all of the times I was mean to her when I was a little kid. She always passed along the feminist idea that sex was empowering and women shouldn’t be shamed for it.

I’m not sure if this answered your question but basically I was taught two conflicting views from both of them.

My mom was actually very overprotective of me as a child and I was never allowed to do anything growing up. It wasn’t easy to have friends that way, especially as I got into high school. Maybe that’s part of why I never learned to protect myself, I never had to before. Maybe it’s partly why I went wild when I went to college, before I met my husband. I would sleep with people I wasn’t even attracted to and not know why.

I have since tried to learn that it is even an option to say no, that I have just as much value as a person as anyone else.

Thank you again for your advice. The part about practicing gratitude is very helpful and really resonates with me, as long as I can remember to do it.

I’m not sure if this is relevant but
I was raised Lutheran, I love Jesus. Somehow back then I was really confused and got things really mixed up. I don’t know if I was being a martyr or what but I told myself I was loving my neighbor as myself. I now can see I was not loving my husband or myself but at the time I saw myself as some kind of sacrificial lamb to be served up on a platter. Obviously on some level I knew all of this was wrong as I was keeping it from him for so long.
There was also a feeling of wanting to be socially accepted amongst a group at the expense of my husband and I am so disappointed in myself for that. I don’t even recognize the person who would do that.
So, a lot of conflicting thoughts I had going on at the time and still am trying to sort out. Probably lies I was telling myself to rationalize things and maybe still am.
Thank you again for reading all of my rambling. It really means a lot. I’m not sure if I’m going in the right direction.

[This message edited by Pleasehelpmebebetter at 12:54 PM, Thursday, March 20th]

Hugs to you. It’s a lot. I remember those days as well, it was a living hell in my mind.

I think there is this space where who you have been and who you are going to be meet. I think you are arriving there. In order to feel better just go back to the part where you are striving towards who you are going to become. After a good track record of that you may start the seeds of feeling like you have a good recent history. And as you build on that these things will click into place. One step at a time.

As for what I said about making your feelings more important. We all did that. You aren’t doing it intentionally or maliciously. It’s that these big feelings of shame hit you like a tsunami.

If you start walking towards where you are going that will calm down but I would ask your therpist to help you with tools on how to be in the present moment with him. How to keep calm when that tsunami wants to over take you.

This is all very human, and if you just keep trying and striving all this pain and heartache really can serve a. Higher purpose in you and your relationships.

I felt and sounded a lot how you do now when I got here. There is good living ahead. You are redeemable. You are lovable. You just need to find ways to ground yourself in your path ahead.

You keep showing up here, that’s brave. That shows you want to transform yourself. That shows that you do live your husband and want to be better for him. You are already taking the baby steps.

Try conscious breathing when you get over whelmed. Lots of you tube videos to look at on that. Humming can help calm your nervous system. What you are looking for are things to help bring you into the present moment and soothe the overwhelm you feel.

You can do this because you can’t afford not to. It’s destroying you. You can choose your way to a new place one decision at a time. Sometimes when we look too far ahead or look too far backwards that is how we overwhelm ourselves.

Change is something that happens when we are persistent, consistent, and focus on smaller short term goals.

I am not saying that you do not need to be retrospective and dig for truths. I am just saying when it gets too much find a way to calm yourself.

You can do it, and life will get better as you start choosing to believe that.

[This message edited by hikingout at 3:42 PM, Thursday, March 20th]

Thank you for your support. It means more than you’ll ever know. I really appreciate your advice.

I am struggling with some things currently. He is getting really angry (understandably) very easily at seemingly unrelated things and I’m not sure how to ride this out because I know I deserve it but at the same time I feel like I should stand up for myself even though I have no ground to stand on. I feel like because of what I’ve done, I’ve forfeited my rights as a human being.

It was selfless of him to encourage me to get support but at the same time I wonder if it is hard for him to see people supporting me if he thinks I haven’t earned it.

I am having a lot of mixed feelings and I’m very confused about the narrative in my head because I know if he came at me and said: I was young, I was drinking, I was taken advantage of; I don’t think I would see those as valid excuses. I would probably just say, well you shouldn’t have been drinking. If he brought up his past as to why he was behaving in the present, I would probably just see that as weakness.

So I am very confused with the conflicting views I am holding. And I’m constantly afraid of making him mad even though I know he says he will be patient with me.

Also, when I met him, I gave up a lot of myself. He didn’t ask me to, I was just afraid that if I didn’t have the same interests as him, he would get bored of me and he wouldn’t love me. So I’m not sure if part of this was trying to find myself and looking in the wrong places. I am so afraid that even thinking like this is going to upset him. I am so lost. I don’t know what I’m supposed to say. I’m just grasping at straws here.

[This message edited by Pleasehelpmebebetter at 4:38 PM, Thursday, March 20th]

I am only supporting and encouraging you to get better.

I could get in here and be critical, but that’s not what you need. You need some inspiration on where you are trying to go. You need someone who has been where you are and who climbed out to share things that helped them and to help you see how you grow is not to hide in your shame. You need to process your shame so that you can think beyond it.

If he gets angry that I am helping you to do that then he is more interested in you being punished. I do not read that from him at all. He seems to understand you are full of fear and shame and he wants for you to be strong enough to be honest with him, to be self aware, to show him empathy. But you can not do that if someone doesn’t hold your hand and introduce you to walking out into the light. That’s what I do here. I do think he understands that, but you should ask him.

I think maybe don’t think in terms of what you deserve. Think of it as you both deserve for you to become the woman you want to be for him. My gentleness is because I want you to be comfortable to share where you are stuck s this is all a very healthy thing to do.

So let’s talk about some of these things you are struggling with:

He is getting really angry (understandably) very easily at seemingly unrelated things and I’m not sure how to ride this out because I know I deserve it but at the same time I feel like I should stand up for myself even though I have no ground to stand on. I feel like because of what I’ve done, I’ve forfeited my rights as a human being.

Okay, first, you are earning your chance at redemption. You do deserve to be happy and have a healthy marriage, but only if you can offer him the same in return. And that’s why I am talking to you about writing down who you wish you could be, who you are striving to become.

A lot of the struggle that you are experiencing here is he does not feel like he has the truth. I see you were willing to do a lie detector test, and usually people fear what will happen and they refuse or they give a parking lot confession.

I don’t know what questions were asked but you passed. There are people who can beat a lie detector test but honestly you seem to be a big mess, (no offense- I think you know you are a mess) I would think someone that pathological would be calmer.

From his standpoint though, the story has changed and you have trickle truthed him. This is why I advise anything at all you are still holding or hiding out of fear, tell it all. Everything. Come clean. I am not suggesting I know there is anything else but this ongoing lying makes you very hard for him to believe. Think about it as you are building trust every day. You need to think about being very intentional about being transparent, open. Because your defensiveness makes it feel to him that you just want him to stop talking about it and let everything get back to normal. That is not going to happen, even if he wanted it to.

The reason I say that is this has caused him literal brain trauma. He is in fight or flight mode with you because he can’t trust you. So let’s think what could make him trust you:

Answer his questions truthfully -NUMBER 1 thing! And remember when you have already given him the truth, be calm when he keeps asking. It’s normal for him to react that way. Try and think of it as you aren’t forfeiting your rights, you simply need to be empathetic and valodate his experience. He has been lied to for over a decade, it’s driving him towards these behaviors. So you answer the same questions over and over again. Calmly, truthfully, and with empathy that he doesn’t know what the truth is. Your therapist will help the two of you level that out but do your part- no lies.

I am having a lot of mixed feelings and I’m very confused about the narrative in my head because I know if he came at me and said: I was young, I was drinking, I was taken advantage of; I don’t think I would see those as valid excuses. I would probably just say, well you shouldn’t have been drinking. If he brought up his past as to why he was behaving in the present, I would probably just see that as weakness.

Let’s remove the idea of excuses. I believe that there could be a power dynamic issue, alcohol issue. But you are right that does not excuse any of the behavior as it was repeated over and over again. If it had been a one time thing, that might seem plausible. But you kept going around these people, you stayed open to them, you hung out and texted them even if you weren’t working. That’s not to condemn you. That’s to bring you to this:

You participated in all of this to get something you needed from the situation.

Let me tell you a little from my experience and how I took accountability for my affair.

So my affair was with an older man who was a serial cheater and good at getting in women’s heads. I let him because I wanted his attention. I began to feel powerful, I started romanticizing myself to a certain extent. The affair made me feel younger, sexier, desirable. I was playing a role in my head in which I was this thing to be desired, cherished. That felt very good because I didn’t do those things for myself. I didn’t do things that were healthy to feel sexier, younger, or more interesting. I was a people pleaser too, and that meant I had bad boundaries.

Where I took that was - okay how could I be these things for myself so I will never look for them externally again? (This made me a safer more reliable partner)

So get honest about what you were getting from it, and then start working on how you can change these things about yourself. Your therpist will look at your childhood and help you see ways that you became that way. You will become more mindful of each thing because you are aware of it and you know why you have that in you, you know why the pattern began and realize it doesn’t serve you.

Don’t deflect, be brave. Like with the ap in the phone not blocked, accusing him of doing that doesn’t even make sense. It’s better to say "I got these things from him and I saw keeping his number as a security blanket" What I wrote just then may not be true, but look for what is true.

Finding your true whys takes a little while to unwind, but you have to look beneath the surface and not blame the external circumstances. Ask yourself, what did I get from that? Why did I do that? And when you are honest with yourself you will likely find the truth is not scary. "I didn’t feel like I was worth anything and they made me feel _____"

All this hiding has made your shame exponentially high. To undo the shame you have to take a look at what happened, what is the truth, tell it all, and fix it.

All I have been doing this whole time is tell you how to gravitate towards that light because the shame is what is keeping you where you are and it’s what is infuriating him. He wants to understand you, trust you, see you make progress towards being who he knows you can be.

So I am very confused with the conflicting views I am holding. And I’m constantly afraid of making him mad even though I know he says he will be patient with me.

All of us ws do that. We think this will be the straw that breaks the camels back" when it reality what really breaks the straw is the hiding from it, deflecting blame, not owning who were wer, what we have done, and making a stand towards being a better version of ourselves.

One thing I learned about being a people pleaser is that it’s selfish. I people pleased to be loved. I wanted my husband to think I was the most awesome wife. But what that did was create this expectation that I needed to do it to be loved and if I didn’t see love or appreciation from it then it made me try harder until I didn’t know who the hell I was anymore. But it was inauthentic behavior. A mask. This mask is part of why he senses he can’t trust you.

Growing up I used the emotional barometer of my mom to tip toe around her. If she was displeased I did everything I could to appease her. I then got married and put the emotional barometer on my husband. If he was unhappy it must be my fault. If he wants making me happy it must be his fault.

Not true- he is responsible for his happiness and I am responsible for mine. When we do that we have two healthy individuals who can create a very fullfilling and loving relationship.

My encouraging you is me saying get in a healthy space. Stop the self punishing. think about where you want to go and start looking for ways to get there. Sitting and doing nothing but feeling shitty is a cycle you have to break.

I hope that helps but I will keep trying to help you get to that light. I want you to become someone you are proud of, someone your husband can trust and rely on, and you have to step into your own power in this situation in order to get there. The power is trying to pick yourself up and start anew. The power is being that person that is trustworthy, loving, brave reliable, empathetic. Not the one who is just beating herself up and not getting anywhere.

[This message edited by hikingout at 5:26 PM, Thursday, March 20th]

One thing I think my therapist will be able to help me with is that I feel empathy but I seem to have trouble expressing it. When I was reading Rising Strong, I realized I seem to come across more as having sympathy. I’m not sure if that’s because it’s what I learned growing up.
I know this may sound silly but I definitely saw 25 as getting old and thought I was having a quarter life crisis at the time. If I look at myself back then, I am surprised by how full of myself I was because I thought some of the reason I did all of this was because of my insecurities.
I didn’t feel like I was worth anything and they made me feel special. Hence why I must’ve cried when they gave attention to other women; I realized I wasn’t special after all.
I can very much relate about tip toeing around your mom; I did it with my dad growing up. And you’re right, I do it with my husband constantly. I always blame myself if he is unhappy. I think it is very frustrating to him and makes it difficult for him to feel safe to express his feelings around me and be validated. It’s something I’m at least working on trying to become aware of when it’s happening and recognize it.
Thank you for your gentleness and your straightforwardness. I will keep showing up and trying to bounce back even when the going gets tough. I’ll try not to get discouraged so easily.

If you just focus on those last two things as goals and even when you mess it up keep trying you will see progress. You are stuck in cycles and just need little goals like that to help drive you forward.

Also your Comment about sympathy versus empathy is probably very true. Remember in the beginning when I talked about the difference between shame, guilt and remorse? You have to get away from the shame to feel the remorse and that’s when empathy can take the place of sympathy. All this downgrading talk you are doing to yourself to punish yourself is actually holding you back. Your husband will notice the difference when you can make the space for remorse. And this will be an improvement in your capacity to love which also will feel better to both of you.

You CAN do it! Just take it one bite at a time and try and not shame spiral so much. When you feel yourself doing it just learn to do some
Breathe work and bring yourself back into the present moment.

Thank you so much. That is very helpful.

I had what I thought was a productive session with the therapist and shortly thereafter repeated my same mistakes. I was telling him about something we had talked about related to my past drinking. He asked me why I liked to drink around other people instead of with him. I felt pressure and froze, got upset and panicked because I didn’t know how to answer it. I don’t have a good answer for that at the moment. At first I said I wished I didn’t bring it up. I tried to course correct later by asking him if it would help if I understood why that hurt him even if I didn’t have a good answer for it. He said yes. I also asked him if I could think on it and he said yes. I hope that helped at least a little bit but it’s so hard when these habits are super ingrained. I’m definitely still trying to work on the whole self-awareness thing.
All of this happened right before dinner and I am having trouble eating. When we talk about things and get upset, my appetite usually goes away. if I do eat, I feel so nauseous afterwards and the food just sits there. Meat is too heavy. All i really feel like I can eat is carbs or something that will digest quickly and easily. I used to suffer from bulimia and it has been flaring up again. All of this has become a problem because understandably it makes him feel like I’m holding a gun to his head, or as he said it, holding his feelings hostage.
Thank you again for not giving up on me and for helping me see different ways to think. I really appreciate the time you’ve been putting into reading my rambling thoughts and your thoughtful replies. It really is making a big difference. I know I have a long way to go but for the first time I see a glimmer of light.

[This message edited by Pleasehelpmebebetter at 1:06 AM, Friday, March 21st]

He asked me why I liked to drink around other people instead of with him. I felt pressure and froze, got upset and panicked because I didn’t know how to answer it.

Oh Pleasehelpmebebetter, these conversations are SO HARD. You brought me right about to circa two years ago and it is awful!

There is an answer to this question. You are not in touch with the truth of the answer to this question. There's probably a part of you that is so scared you will say the wrong thing and hurt his feelings even more than you already have. So you panic. Meanwhile, he suspects the answer is that he's the safe boring person and those people are the fun people and you are giving up having fun to be boring with him. Which makes him feel like dirt, worse than dirt. And you are afraid of being alone with your thoughts because you are worried there's an answer that you don't want to face, maybe you are just attracted to slime. At least, this is the circle that my husband and I used to run around. It was exhausting, depressing, I hated hurting him, he would try to stop asking but then the pressure would build because he either wanted to confirm or deny that I didn't really want him but I was settling for him. NIGHTMARE.

There's a difference between honest and truth. If you are honest with yourself, you might say I have more fun drinking with them than with my husband. That's a STEP toward the truth. Once you say that to yourself, and settle, you might then realize a deeper truth, which is well, it's not actually fun. It's avoidance, which feels good at the time but feels awful the next day. Then you settle with that realization and you come to the next truth, which is, something else. This is why you need to be curious about yourself, not ashamed, just interested in how you got to where you are. The truth is FAR less scary, though it's sometimes a very messy and unpleasant process.

In the meantime, please tell your husband something that will help him. Something like: I don't understand this part of myself. I'm working hard to understand it so that I can heal it. You are the man that I want in every way a woman can want a man, as a lover, a drinking buddy, a life partner. I'm trying to get out of my own way. Please be as patient as possible with me and I will work as fast as I can to heal.

There used to be so many ways in which I did not understand myself. I felt urges, compulsions, reactions, emotions that emanated from mysterious places and seemed to cause me to do mysterious things. With many years of reflection, confession, probing, I now understand basically every emotion, reaction, urge, basically to the extent that when I don't understand something it really bothers me. (I wrote a post a few months ago about an interaction with my mother that was confusing - the confusion really bothered me because I am now USED to understanding myself). With understanding and awareness, the difficult and uncomfortable parts have just dissipated and I feel incredibly peaceful almost all of the time. Strong emotions, of course - the hurt in the world is painful for me, the love is joyous, seeing others struggle makes me hurt. But it's all self aware and I can give it to God and feel my emotions. Pleasehelpmebebetter, it is absolutely wonderful. This is the path you are on. Please sit with the question your husband asked and either write or record or whatever your shitty first draft. It's the first step.

[This message edited by Pippin at 2:03 AM, Friday, March 21st]

Pippin,
I can’t tell you how much it helps to know someone else has been in my shoes. I thought for sure I was the only one. Thank you. You totally get it.
I was starting to get to the avoidance part but I don’t think I was explaining it very well to him. I tried to tell him that with him I didn’t feel a need to escape because I felt safe with him. Maybe that fell flat because I obviously hid all of this from him for a decade.
I can also relate to the idea that not understanding something has always bothered me a lot. I’m struggling with catching myself to be more self-aware in a timely manner. At least I’m noticing it now but I still feel like it’s too late. Thank you so much for taking the time to read my incoherent thoughts and for your heartfelt reply. I actually feel hope for the first time in over a year.
My husband told me about your prayer posts and I’ve only read a couple of them so far but they are very well written and I enjoyed reading them. I really appreciate your contributions. Please know what a difference you make.

This is why you need to be curious about yourself, not ashamed, just interested in how you got to where you are. The truth is FAR less scary, though it's sometimes a very messy and unpleasant process.

In the meantime, please tell your husband something that will help him. Something like: I don't understand this part of myself. I'm working hard to understand it so that I can heal it. You are the man that I want in every way a woman can want a man, as a lover, a drinking buddy, a life partner. I'm trying to get out of my own way. Please be as patient as possible with me and I will work as fast as I can to heal.

Great insight from Pippen.

Oh boy, yes, all the questions you don’t know answers to. It took me a long time to answer them all because I didn’t know myself. It’s such a mixture of feeling like you are failing, frustration and anger with yourself. And then the added dynamic of knowing I was failing him and the panic of losing him.

Self discovery is exactly the process she says. Be curious about yourself. If you could see where that can lead you, you wouldn’t be afraid you would run towards it as fast as you can.

I get what you are saying about feeling safer with him and not needing the alcohol. Let’s see if this rings true (don’t adopt it if it doesn’t) You needed liquid nerves to be around these guys. You wanted to be seen a certain way so it would be reflected back to you, but you weren’t yourself with them because they were not safe. You were feeling like if they saw you as this fun time girl so you would meet the image of what they wanted you to be all to get what you wanted from them - confirmation of your specialness, your feminine allure, etc? (The last part is a question because I don’t know what you were getting from it? I may be projecting what I was getting out of it and it may not be the same for you- I am just trying to help you dig)

Sometimes the truthful answer isn’t the one that will get a good reaction from

Your husband in that moment. But as you land on the truths it will paint the picture to you and you will understand it more deeply and that will allow him to see it all fits at that time.

Just remind yourself his initial reaction isn’t likely his permanent reaction. He will need time to process these things too.

Overtime, being curious about yourself will lead you to a deeper self knowing and your self awareness will grow. Be patient with yourself, it’s a process and you can’t snap your fingers and it all be there. Believe me there were long terrible nights that I prayed and prayed for it.

But, it’s much better to be honest you don’t know and will reflect in it because other wise you give answers that aren’t truthful they are more a dartboard throw. I found when I did that it sounded to my husband like I was wishy washy. It didn’t help restore his faith in me, he just thought I was trying to wiggle out of it with these half assed explanations.

I will caution you though, don’t use the "I don’t know" for things you do know. This will lead to further distrust and it will look to him that you aren’t trying, because that is the definition of not trying. Trying is honesty. Trying is digging and thinking and learning.

Also be patient with yourself. You feel you failed because you repeated your engrained behaviors. I see a tiny amount of progress because you recognize it. Day by day being awake to what we are doing and why is most of the work. And each time we practice we will improve just a little bit more, we will understand ourselves a little bit more. We will begin to "get it" and be less afraid and find that fear is what was holding you back from getting to the truth in the first place.

Progress over perfection.

Here is what I have learned about you so far:

1. You do care. You want your husband and your marriage.

2. You are super hard on and punishing of yourself, and I think in some ways that is you trying to show contrition. It’s just unproductive.

3. You want to give him what will help him.

4. You are deeply afraid. If you like Pippen’s prayers I would encourage you to expand your spiritual life. I certainly have. One thing that is true, God loves us and never leaves us. He wants us to be happy and healthy. He wants us to be a fountain of love to ourselves so we have it for others. He offers is grace. He offers rest when you need it - surrender to him.

5. You are like the rest of us were - you are trying but in the dark about the path.

I hope today is a better day.

[This message edited by hikingout at 2:52 PM, Friday, March 21st]

This is what the next couple of years (less if you’re lucky) is going to look like:

You avoid talking (and thinking/reflection/self knowledge). You notice that sometimes things are quiet (and you think whew) and sometimes he is distressed. You wait for the distress to go away. Terrible plan, thank goodness you are past that, don’t go back to it.

Next step: you start checking in with yourself honestly and you start having realisations. You realize something like this:

I tried to tell him that with him I didn’t feel a need to escape because I felt safe with him.

You share that with him, with a sense of hope because you are trying to be open and honest. He FREAKS out. Because this is for many men their worst nightmare. That he is the safe boring unsexy predictable man. He now seems more miserable than before and you think that not talking is actually the right path! Or that you should go deal with your stuff on your own.

This will feel like failure, but if you can be patient, at some point you will get to the next insight, which is likely that behavior was fueled by shameful parts of you that you think he doesn’t/can’t love. (Note the very important difference between "you are safe" and "I am shameful"). If you are honest, you hide it because you don’t want to face it, but there is also a part of you that thinks that he will reject you when he knows how shameful you are.

At that point I see three possibilities (for you).

He learns how shameful you are, he is relieved it’s you not him (probably still has to deal with some spillover uncertainty about his worth as a man but less than before) and he doesn’t want to deal with you. If this happens, it will be super painful but you will be OK.

He learns how shameful you were, sees that you don’t want to be that person anymore, gives you space to deal with it, willing to stay married and go forward now that you are getting better. This is a pretty good life.

He wants all of you, the shameful and the other, it makes him feel like a capable man and husband for you to offer your whole self to him, naked and vulnerable. You become self aware, settled, peaceful, wise. He shares the vulnerable parts of himself and you can help him without worrying about what it means for you because you are good. You grow in intimacy. Bliss.

[This message edited by Pippin at 8:12 PM, Friday, March 21st]

T/j

Hikingout, my friend, please humor me.

3 P

2 I

1 N

0 E

Think less great big sweaty NBA player and more tiny little Lord of the Rings betrayer.

I know you have forgiven me more than misspelling, and I also misspell, but I humbly ask, undeserving but hopeful.

Gracias.

End T/J

[This message edited by Pippin at 8:28 PM, Friday, March 21st]