SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

He knew he was being a horrible piece of shit.

I am not saying we re without shame when it’s happening, but the level of denial we impose is steep. I do not ever deny knowing what I did was wrong, even at the time it was happening. But that is different than having logical thinking, avoiding thinking of the consequences.

I also thought I would never be caught, but I think that delusion is what you use when the stress gets high to push it away.

You can know you are being a horrible piece of shit on one hand but still minimize the consequences. Those are two different things.

Let me suggest another way to think about consequences.

Understand that fear of consequences may cause some people to stay on the straight and narrow, but a large number of people are not deterred by fear. IOW, saying, 'If you cheat, you're gone' won't necessarily provide any protection.

After d-day, the BS will impose one type of consequence or another, ranging from denial to tacit acceptance (sweeping it all under the rug) to D (or worse, like criminal violence).

IMO, it's best to stop and think before acting. Figure out what you - the BS - want. Then act in ways that will get you as close to your goal as possible.

You can know you are being a horrible piece of shit on one hand but still minimize the consequences. Those are two different things.

I was responding to this:

Even if considered by a WS, it is necessary for them to dismiss the consequences as unlikely or worthwhile.

WS, as explained, are doing escapist stuff in the first place. They are ignoring reality, and so in their estimation of damage done also ignore reality.

Consider the following lines of thought:

1) "If I get caught and she forgives me, I won't lose anything."
2) "If I get caught and she doesn't forgive me, my marriage was already broken and not worth saving. Really when I started this A, the M was already over in my mind."

No matter how you slice it, the WS chooses to believe (as a lie to themself) that there are not really consequences to the A that wouldn't otherwise exist without the A. They are not, in their mind, a cheating piece of shit being horrible to you.

While I'm sure the two things that I highlighted are true for many marriages, I disagree that they necessarily go hand-in-hand. You can think that it's broken and be sabotaging the marriage, and still know in real time that you're acting like a piece of shit and be terrified of the consequences. Denial isn't always part of the equation for the WS. Sometimes it's calculated risk and entitlement.

I do not think that leading up to d-day 1, that my WH really gave a thought to being a horrible piece of shit. He was too caught up in the newness of his clandestine romance to really give me much thought. It's just a fact. After d-day 1 the A continued for a year before I caught him again (so a year of false R for me) - during that time WH tells me now that he "sometimes" did think about what a horrible piece of shit he was being to me and to OBS (who back then was a good friend of WH) and the longer it went on the worse he felt, which was part of his reason for breaking things off with AP, which he did multiple times during that year, but went back. When asked he said between dday 1 and 2, in the moment with AP, all the sexting and ego kibbles and proclamations of love felt great, but the second he checked back into "real" life he felt horrible, and that just got worse as time wore on, whereas before day-1 he did not feel that way.

In between d-day 2 and 3, which was about 5-6 months, the A was terminated for 3 months but he went back again but says now at dday-3, when I went nuclear (as honestly I had no intention of staying with him any longer so I didn't care who knew what) he says he was relieved (because he felt trapped and thought about being a horrible piece of shit all the time)...and his fantasy solution was to just disappear and leave it all behind - me, AP, all of it. But because he could not do that he felt miserable all the time instead.

[This message edited by ThisIsSoLonely at 4:06 PM, Friday, September 6th]

While I'm sure the two things that I highlighted are true for many marriages, I disagree that they necessarily go hand-in-hand. You can think that it's broken and be sabotaging the marriage, and still know in real time that you're acting like a piece of shit and be terrified of the consequences. Denial isn't always part of the equation for the WS. Sometimes it's calculated risk and entitlement.

I don’t disagree the whys and how’s people cheat can be very different. I don’t even really disagree with you on any of it, more I think maybe I didn’t express it in a way that resonated (and that’s always fine- what I am about to say still might not)

But I absolutely feel that entitlement is always present when people cheat. I don’t think most ws spend time feeling terrified of the consequences. I think we tend to justify ourselves away from those thoughts when they pop up. And I think all people who cheat, including myself make calculated risks. It is my belief we just think we are telling ourselves dime version of these stories the entire time-

1. I am clever and won’t let them find out

2. If they do find out, they will forgive me OR I don’t care what happens if they find out.

I was clever/didn’t care what happened. Both were obviously lies that I told myself because it obviously in the end, I cared a lot.

But I think without convincing ourselves we are entitled it doesn’t happen. I don’t think that is ever absent.

I also think that knowing they are doing shitty things is also something most are aware of, but with varying levels of concern. Generally justifications still steer that from being a long thought.

[This message edited by hikingout at 4:24 PM, Friday, September 6th]

Do you think that after d-day the WS can accept the consequences.

My WS seems to understand that the consequence for cheating could reasonably have been a divorce. But now that we are in recovery he seems to struggle with the idea that what his thinking was at the time of the cheating is still a possible dealbreaker.

Like if you cheated but felt guilty about it sometimes (even 5% of the time) maybe that’s something I can work with and we can get through this. But if you literally had zero guilt maybe that’s not gonna work.

Or…if you cheated but at least thought about not going along with it next time she tried to get physical (even 5% of the time) maybe that’s something we can work with and we can get through this. But if you literally never consider stopping doing such a shitty thing I’m not so sure.

I don’t know if other people do this same mental math

It is my belief we just think we are telling ourselves dime version of these stories the entire time-

1. I am clever and won’t let them find out

2. If they do find out, they will forgive me OR I don’t care what happens if they find out.

For my H, #1 is true. #2 is decidedly not.

I think part of the difference could be that my H didn't have one A, he had three As over a span of 14 years, starting very early in our marriage. He had a lot of time to stew in his own juices.

He knew I wouldn't forgive him because I had said so multiple times, and he absolutely did care if he was found out, which is why he was a stress monster for 14 years. And it wasn't only me that he was worried about, it was everyone. Everyone was stunned when they found out about the secret life of the stand-up good guy.

For my EA, #1 was not true. It was pretty much out in the open from the start, and my H was an active instigator. (Not all As are textbook, which is why I tend to be an outlier with many of my opinions. lol)

#2 was true. I "knew" that he would forgive me. I also cared more about the titillation and ego feed than my integrity. When I refused to transition to PA, I was dropped like a hot potato and I woke up. One could say that I cared enough about what would happen that I stopped before it got out of hand. (Another non-textbook situation. I sometimes chime in on speculative threads when people say that if the WS and AP were in a hotel room alone, they definitely had sex. Well, we were, and we didn't.)

Like if you cheated but felt guilty about it sometimes (even 5% of the time) maybe that’s something I can work with and we can get through this. But if you literally had zero guilt maybe that’s not gonna work.

Or…if you cheated but at least thought about not going along with it next time she tried to get physical (even 5% of the time) maybe that’s something we can work with and we can get through this. But if you literally never consider stopping doing such a shitty thing I’m not so sure.

I don’t know if other people do this same mental math

I do. I did. It mattered to me that he was tormented. It mattered that he went back and forth from being desperate to be with me to getting caught up in the A. I appreciated that his stomach was trashed due to stress. It meant that there was a man with a conscience in there.

[This message edited by SacredSoul33 at 7:36 PM, Friday, September 6th]

Thank you sacred.

I used to tell my H that if he ever felt he no longer wanted to be married, please don’t cheat. Come home and say it. Be honest.

Yes I will be upset but at least I will still respect you.

Sadly he came home and told me was cheating after he cheated. And expected me to be okay with him flaunting it in front of me.

Maybe the cheater doesn’t care about the consequences. But if that’s the case - no need to hide it.

The behavioral is illogical. And I stopped trying to figure it out a long time ago

Maybe the cheater doesn’t care about the consequences. But if that’s the case - no need to hide it.

The behavioral is illogical. And I stopped trying to figure it out a long time ago

I agree. I think it’s because the first line of defense is really they won’t find out. When you think about that failing, then you lie to yourself and say you don’t care. Of course you care, as you said you wouldn’t hide it, and when the chips had to be on the table I cared a lot. It’s just a lie I told myself with no backing it up.

I think it’s because the first line of defense is really they won’t find out. When you think about that failing, then you lie to yourself and say you don’t care.

W said she didn't think I'd find out. She also said she thought I'd accept her back anyway if I did find out. Then she realized I might not, but that wasn't until close to the end of the A.

I think realizing I might leave her was part of her decision to end the A. In any case, before she revealed the A, she had decided to take whatever happened when she ended the A. She didn't intend to reveal the A when she did, but she had decided to be honest no matter what, and I asked a critical question, so she revealed the A.

That's a variation on hiking's theme.