SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Wow. Thanks everyone for taking the time to comment. It’s interesting to hear other perspectives on this and I tend to value the advice and opinions I read here.

As I mentioned, some of my readings lately have left me wondering the difference between the two (or if there is a difference). Not that I personally, not even for a minute, have ever thought one is "worse "than the other - at the end of the day it’s the same shit … betrayal/lies/deceit and repeat. I guess I was curious the ways in which it could make it worse being a BH or BW (ex. for a BH - paternity).

I hope I didn’t offend anyone with the question, I’m genuinely trying to understand infidelity better in general. Thank you (again) for the respectful responses. I’m truly seeing just how individual infidelity is and what one person experiences, will not necessarily be the same as someone else.

Thinking about how I kissed her or having oral sex with her within hours of her being with him still makes me want to throw up. Oral for her was a huge part of our sexual experience. Virtually every time. I liked giving, and she responded to it. I tried it only once after the affair and I actually came very close to throwing up. I told her to GTFO of the bed, and ran to the bathroom. It was horrible. She cried for days and I actually feel bad about as I that moment she had done nothing wrong, and the sex was actually going ok as I felt brave enough to go down.

WWTL, Ive read your account of this particular episode with a sharp intake of breath. The memory of that alone would have blown all of my circuits I think. The trauma had to be incredibly intense.

May I ask how soon after Dday did this particular episode come to light?

As another former BH I wish you well sir and far far better days ahead.

[This message edited by DobleTraicion at 11:51 AM, Thursday, August 15th]

May I ask how soon after Dday did this particular episode come to light?

It took about a week to get all the information about what went on. That was brutal. Imagine Jack Bauer without the physical part of the interrogation.

The episode that I described was well into a year after d day. I didn’t touch her for 8 months and this happened after I was getting a little more comfortable having sex. Unfortunately this episode sent me way back and made me realize it wasn’t worth trying to be intimate during sex and it was never going to be more than a physical release.

It took about a week to get all the information about what went on. That was brutal. Imagine Jack Bauer without the physical part of the interrogation.

How could it not be? It sickens me to read it. Beside the utter sexual humiliation, the stunning disregard for your health is staggering to me. Its one thing to put youself at risk (hpv, herpes, hiv, etc) but to do so to your spouse of decades and in one of the most degrading ways imaginable is beyond the pale. How could this one thing alone not absolutely devastate any hope for true sexual intimacy?

For what its worth, Im amazed you made it another 5 years with her (although I hung in there for 10 but was in a completely different place in life with small children which weighed heavily on me).

ETA: To the point of this thread, I know of incidents of this happening in reverse where the BW engaged in oral with her WH on the same day he was with his AP. Aside from the obvious terrible fact which you described concerning his sperm, still disgusting and endangering to the BW's health.

[This message edited by DobleTraicion at 6:07 PM, Thursday, August 15th]

I am sorry you misunderstand- I am saying this is how I have it in my head, which is only worth my two cents. I wouldn’t blame you for not trusting it! It’s just my own meanderings after reading this site over the years.

I didn’t misunderstand. I totally "get" this was just your opinion based on experience and spending years involved in this site, etc. My point was that IMO your "pulled out of the air" and "using fingers and toes math" isn’t any better or worse than "scientifically based research with strong methodology". I’ve seen statistics and output vary wildly (like the whole joke "what do you WANT the data to say") to the point of being somewhat useless. All does seem to fall back to the old tropes "men seek sex/women seek romance" and both use the other to get the one they want. I also think their IS validity to that and that’s why you see men who are in affairs becoming "Valentinos" and professing love in ways never before seen with their wives and women turning from "cold fish" to "nymphos" in affairs. And at the end of the day, why the BS is almost ALWAYS served up what we fear the most (emotions from WH for BW and sex from WW for BH). Those things are the "currency" of infidelity.

I do agree with you about women seeking romance for the most part. As you say, they also tend to twist all kinds of ugly relationships into "love". IMO, this is where some of the data becomes unreliable. Just like the revisionist history to make the marriage bad (or even outright sabotage of the marriage) to "justify" the cheating, I feel a lot of women want to be true to the "no sex without love" mantra they have been taught all their lives so as to create "love" were none exists to justify the sex. Here’s where I pull a stat out of the air. It seems like 80% of the women who are asked after an affair if they loved the AP answer with some version of "I thought I did but it wasn’t real love". Maybe "manufactured" to help justify the behavior? And yes, I understand the whole impact of Limerence.

In my own relationship and infidelity journey, I have heard the following form my wife (shortly after D-Day): "It wasn’t about the sex. I only gave them sex to keep the relationship going and I hated the sex and just wanted it to be over with". Like "not liking it" makes it all better somehow. I have talked to dozens of BH who have been told the same thing.

If it’s not about the sex, but sex is the agreed upon currency (and your own stated goal in pursuing the relationship), how does that work?

If the relationship is nothing BUT sex (no dates, no dinners, only talk to set up sex) and consists of only meeting in the commuter lot to have sex in AP’s tow truck, what is the "relationship" you are maintaining here?

Why would you spend 20 years of your life doing something dozens of times that you hate? All while risking your very way of life? That’s pathetic and sad.

At first, she would stare blankly back at me. After months of IC she sat me down one night and said "You know how I expressed all my cheating was not about the sex, how I hated it and only did that to keep them hooked? That was really me just twisting myself in knots to keep the narrative alive in my head that I may have done whorish things but I’m not really just a side piece…." No one wants to be the villain of their own story. That’s why lying is so prevalent in infidelity. Not least of which is to one’s own self.

I totally agree, imachump.

f it’s not about the sex, but sex is the agreed upon currency (and your own stated goal in pursuing the relationship), how does that work?

Well, for me it didn’t start out "I wanna have sex with this person", in fact he was much older than me. I didn’t see him like that. I mean sometimes for people it might be chasing money (I think that’s partially why my husbands ap went for him)

It started as banter, escalated to flirting and the attention/romance of that felt good. But when someone is out of balance (and I was a mess at the time) it became the high point of my day.

my affair was mostly long distance so keep in mind most of what I am talking about is texting. We didn’t do much talking in any other form). Quickly I was willing to look over certain things to keep it going. I wanted to be wanted essentially. It feeds into what I really wanted which was to feel interesting and desirable and younger. In many ways him being older made me feel like I was a catch.

It’s all stupid to write now of course. I don’t like everything Esther pearl says but for me, when she says a lot of people have an affair to experience another version of themselves - that is 100 percent true. It’s not that conscious thing, but something I can clearly say is true.

So he was a serial cheater, and probably knew how it goes. And it’s like you said they get sort of practiced at the whole dance. He would push one boundary at a time and I kept buying into it because at this point I am in LaLa land.

I can see how that sort of escapism could be addictive, and how someone could get stuck in a loop of needing to be that alter ego. It’s a loop, the escapism is a high that masks the things in your life. But it leads to more shame and self loathing. Then you continue the pattern to make yourself feel better. I did not go that route personally, because I couldn’t bear to go through that sort of pain again (withdrawal) and then it became I didn’t want to be that person, and I wanted to save my marriage. But I can see without reaching a rock bottom place that someone like your wife might do it again to get back in a state of escapism to avoid the negative feelings from the fall out.

But my affair was more of a boiling frog scenario where the sex became the high price of keeping it going, and also a natural part of this romance that was now full blown in my mind.

Not excusing anything I am saying or minimizing the damage or saying anything is justified. Just trying to answer from the context of your question which translates to "what were you thinking at the time?"

[This message edited by hikingout at 7:19 PM, Thursday, August 15th]

For what its worth, Im amazed you made it another 5 years with her

When I first got to these boards I was told that the person who did this was the real her. I didn’t buy that. I’m not that stupid that I could have been fooled for 25 years. We are talking about a woman who really had dedicated her life to helping others. Class mother, working hours volunteering in hospitals and food shelters, honored by the community. You get the picture. After my initial anger I tried to look past what almost felt like a psychotic break. The person that did this wasn’t who she was. I spent years trying to come to terms with it. Plus she was as remorseful a WS can be. She never stopped trying to get us back on track. It killed me to hear her cry when she thought I couldn’t hear.

Yet in the end it wasn’t enough. The hurt was too deep and as I have said here I hated who I became. What kind of monster I had become to not even try to comfort her when she was crying and in pain.

Since I couldn’t change the only out was when I realized that in the end the relationship was never going to be what it was or what it should have been.

I stayed way too long, but I had to work through the process.

wwtl -

I actually read your story in its entirety a few weeks ago. Pretty sure my mouth hung wide open the entire time I sat there reading it. Shaking my head in disbelief and disgust. It sounds like you gave it a valiant effort, but I can deeply understand why you couldn’t get past that level of betrayal.

I can relate when you say "the person that did this wasn’t who she was." My WH is not this "kind" of person either, he’s never once strayed from me or has ever wanted to be with anyone else, he’s actually a very simple man that just wanted to live a simple life and provide for his family. What he did is not his character at all … we’ve been together for 14 years and there’s just no way he would be able to put on a facade for that long. But it happened, he allowed it to happen, so now I’m trying to navigate through this muck. Like you, I’m working through the process with a remorseful spouse who would give anything to turn back time and who won’t stop giving up. I’m hopeful that one day the path will be a lot clearer than present.

I can relate when you say "the person that did this wasn’t who she was." My WH is not this "kind" of person either, he’s never once strayed from me or has ever wanted to be with anyone else, he’s actually a very simple man that just wanted to live a simple life and provide for his family. What he did is not his character at all … we’ve been together for 14 years and there’s just no way he would be able to put on a facade for that long.

I feel for you. In some ways I think having a non remorseful spouse, or one that restarts the affair is much easier to deal with. You just can cut bait and do so without any questions about whether you are taking the right path. I actually hoped I would catch her again doing something that would make my decision easier. She never wavered in her path to bring us back.

My EXWW affair stemed from a mid life crisis which manifested into the affair. Have you been able to pin point what led him to betray you? Deep down is saving the marriage what you want? If it is, it can probably be saved. If it is it’s a hard road with a lot of work, but others here have done it.

I was never committed and I think the result was we realistically never had a chance

If I might chime in on this exchange as well…

I believe it is entirely possible for an affair to be an aberration of the person that you have known for so long. I don’t believe that once a cheater always a cheater applies across the board. There are many like that and many not.

Everyone is light and dark, some have a different ratio than others.

But, there are things that I have learned about myself that make me understand why I was susceptible to these behaviors. And those are the things that were always there. They just weren’t manifesting in a way that was evil or destructive until the affair.

Like your husband, heartbroken, for 20 years I didn’t even notice other men. I was dedicated as a wife and mother. I was honest, I think I have mentioned here I had never even lied to my husband before.

This next part is really more about me than drawing an exact parallel but I am trying to get to why people say it was alway part of her.

Underneath the surface, I would not admit to myself that I resented the amount of sacrifice I had made through the path of life I chose. I had lost connection with what was important to me and as the nest emptied, I didn’t know who I was or what I wanted. That sort of transition after 20 years of getting time back, and suddenly being middle aged, and no longer finding anything in life fulfilling.

What I am trying to say here is if you do not have a strong sense of self, when you find yourself in periods of transition, stress, depression, loss, etc and you are already prone to not seek out personal fulfillment that darker side can easily take over. The selfishness, the lack of morality, integrity, and the callousness I was able to access without a thought, that is a a place I too easily went to for it to not be part of me. When someone is in pain and tries to ignore it, there is not applying any coping mechanisms or trying to process anything.

Numbing bad feelings numbs good ones. And people who are in pain will act out of their typical character.

I will preface what I am about to say as this is not meant to be a direct example because obviously WTL was a betrayed man and I can see he was the victim in this, and not the perpetrator. (And she caused his pain so I know how that made his callousness towards her really her fault. Where as what I did wasn’t my husband fault.) However, think about what a loving husband WTL was and then the pain of what happened made some of his darker side come out. He easily slipped into callousness and calls himself a monster. Pain can bring out the very worst in people.

The thing about pain though is it doesn’t always matter how it’s inflicted, you still might find the darker side of your human nature come out on display. I now see my affair as an inevitable result of how I conducted my life combined with some rough times, lack of self awareness. I have always relied on some sort of escape. Whether it be overly involved in planning trips or other things that I made a fantasy of and not understanding why I never felt satisfied with what actually happened because it didn’t live up to the escapist expectations I had. I spent a few years drinking wine way more than I should. (I don’t drink today unless you call a once in a blue moon cocktail on a special occasion or vacation- which I think the last time was New years). I gambled for a while (poker), I was always searching for things to fill that void.

All this to say is the types of cheater that you are discussing have it in them or they wouldn’t have done it. But I don’t think it defines them any more than it defines me. There was a long time I was a great wife and that was real. There was a a time I was a really terrible wife. And there came a time when I learned to have a different relationship with myself so that when I am in pain again I know better how to manage it.

It’s funny, but right now there is a ton of upheaval and stress in my life. In many ways it reminds me of how hard life was 7-8 years ago just prior to the affair. And because I have learned all that I have and practiced since that time, my solace, my comfort, is in the arms of my husband who patiently listens and encourages me. And I think to myself what a fool I was to not tap into this escape sooner. It is far more effective to be able to show up in my vulnerability and process it so I can let it go. All this avoiding I did with everything didn’t make me feel better, all it did was accumulate into something too hard to face and cope with.

So in other words, wtl, when I say this part of your wife was there all along, I don’t mean the adulteress who was doing these terrible things. I just mean the type of chewter she and I were was a sleepwalking avoidant who didn’t know how to make themselves happy or cope with the discomforts of losing our youth. Not just from a looks perspective. But as a girl I thought about my wedding, getting a house, having kids, all these milestones to look forward to. Then you reach middle age and you have to really know what else you want out of life to identify the new things there are to relish in or look forward to. It is the death of one part of life and the beginning of another. Everyone experiences that but the ones who lost touch with themselves through a lot of sacrifice it’s terrifying. So I believe you about the midlife crisis, that was a big part of mine too.

[This message edited by hikingout at 11:48 PM, Thursday, August 15th]

The physical aspect is the hardest thing for me. I was my W's first and only sexual partner. Her purity was so precious to me, it was something that was taken away and thrown away. It was given to some stranger she met in a bar, I can't imagine that loss would be easy for anyone regardless of gender.

wwtl -

I agree. I’ve been waiting for a major relapse in wayward behaviour, and although my WH hasn’t been perfect, he’s trying, learning and growing … nothing major enough to head straight to D land (not at this point anyway).

Pinpointing the whys as to how he could betray me is still something I’m trying to understand 10 months out from Dday. In those initial days he was adamant it was our M that lead him down that path. While I can agree our M had been deteriorating for a very long time before the A … I held on tightly to my morals and honoured my integrity (why is that) … he let go of his (why is that)? The situational reasons such as our shit M, was something he held onto deeply for his "why." Over the course of the months to follow, he’s gained more perspective that there’s more too it than that and he’s started to tap into his internal whys - primarily his learned behaviours and poor coping mechanisms. He has always been a typical "man" who has bottled up his feelings, lack of/poor communication skills and then developed a porn addiction about a year leading up to the A. He actually told me doing this "stuff" made him feel normal because "all the other guys he knows does it." 😑 He’s a very anxious and insecure individual. These characteristics have actually caused some mental health problems, with the A fuelling these immensely. Just like your ex wife, I think he kinda hit a midlife crisis or maybe a rock bottom in life crisis, where he just couldn’t keep fighting and instead he "gave up." My WH is actually starting with an IC tomorrow who specializes in "men’s issues," as well as specializes in areas of anxiety and insecurities. I’m hopeful that this will shed some much needed light into a deeper side of things for my WH (and maybe even help me).

Deep down I would love to save my M, but I’m not convinced yet if it’s worth saving or if it’s able to be salvaged. I’m hopeful, but also realistic. I’m still in those "early days" so to speak, so my path at this point for my M is still unknown.

H/O -

Your responses are always insightful and deep. Maybe one day I can tap into that kind of deeper thinking and wisdom 😊

I get what you’re saying. Looking back, there were (are) parts of my WH that are very broken and it kinda just slipped under the radar. I don’t believe my WH to have a strong sense of self and he didn’t "effectively" handle any of his life transitions well … he’s constantly one big ball of stress, whereas I am carefree like a bird. The selfishness in him very much took over and I believe he felt a sense of entitlement to his actions and behaviour (even though he knew they were wrong and he wouldn’t approve of me doing them). I don’t think he’s ever "loved himself" or had a strong sense of self worth.

Tanner -

You’re right. A blow like that is devastating (regardless being a BH or BW). While my WH and I both experienced being with other people prior, the innocence and purity I once valued in our relationship is forever gone.

Underneath the surface, I would not admit to myself that I resented the amount of sacrifice I had made through the path of life I chose. I had lost connection with what was important to me and as the nest emptied, I didn’t know who I was or what I wanted. That sort of transition after 20 years of getting time back, and suddenly being middle aged, and no longer finding anything in life fulfilling.

Hikingout: thank you for putting thar into words. Reading it, sadly but thankfully, is a bit of a light bulb warning sign going off in me about where IM at right now. I don't believe it could ever manifest itself in my having an affair, but reading you describe that about yourself pre affair and knowing that many waywards think it could never be them, that serves as a flashing warning sign to check myself. So thank you.

I think a lot of ws think they never would do that and do. However, I think it’s likely that you won’t. Knowing the destruction from experiencing it is an education.

I never thought my husband would do it, and neither did he- but I put him in a pain that he didn’t know how to deal with and while his coping sucked as much as mine did and he too had to work on himself after that. And I think about that- how WTL talks about this monster he became (even though he coped differently than my husband did) because it goes to show good people get in pain and it changes them.

[This message edited by hikingout at 1:06 PM, Friday, August 16th]

But as a girl I thought about my wedding, getting a house, having kids, all these milestones to look forward to. Then you reach middle age and you have to really know what else you want out of life to identify the new things there are to relish in or look forward to. It is the death of one part of life and the beginning of another. Everyone experiences that but the ones who lost touch with themselves through a lot of sacrifice it’s terrifying. So I believe you about the midlife crisis, that was a big part of mine too.

I think you pretty much detailed her thoughts almost exactly. You were just more honest by confessing and limiting yourself to how many times you betrayed yourself and your marriage. If you were my WS she would still be married, although things still probably wouldn’t be the same as pre affair.

Heartbroken, sounds like our situation was similar. I will say you are handling it much better than I did

I’m just jumping in here, going back to the original question.

I used to think BH had a harder time sir sex and BW had harder time with the emotional affair, I got schooled pretty good on this forum and don’t think that anymore.

What I have observed is that a cheating wife seems to involve/replace the BH with her AP
more then the cheating Husband. What I mean is that I’ve seen way more cheating wives have the kids around AP or other family members etc, vs the cheating H who keeps his side piece as just that, a side piece separated from his marriage.

Not all of course, for sure have been men who have done same. Just seems to be a more of a cheating wife thing.

That to me is the most fucked up aspect.

H/O -

Most definitely that kind of wisdom comes from first hand experience, compiled with many years of hard work and self reflection. I’m hopeful I can gain similar knowledge from "this side of the fence" based on my experience as a BS.

When you describe pain … looking back to this time last year, it was blatantly obvious my WH wasn’t the same person I knew him to be … he changed and clearly wasn’t coping well with those "inner demons" of his. He was in pain and I suppose I never recognized it at the time because I was in a pain of my own … we took completely different roads in dealing with it. Even though I do not consider myself naive … I was very naive and had an innocent way of thinking … I KNEW my WH would never cheat on me no matter how "bad" things got. In some ways I think the writing was on the wall … I see it now and it makes sense how poor coping mechanisms (ex. his excessive porn use) was a catalyst for further self-deterioration.

Wwtl -

From what I read from your story and what you endured, I don’t think anyone could ever fault you for how you handled it. In the end of it all you did the right thing for you and you x wife. Nobody wants to live like that.

HINHF -

I agree can definitely see that point. Obviously there will be the odd exception, but generally speaking I think that is definitely a difference.

I agree too. I wrote earlier on this thread that I think men are better compartmentalizers. There are different things between genders like that whether they are biological or a product of different taught roles, I don’t know but fully agree men tend to be more often the cake eaters while women tend to be more invested. Perhaps it’s because some majority men by and large believe they cheat for sex, while women are looking for the softer aspects.

I think from a bs perspective that gender line CAN feed into what wounds are harder for that individual but I think the overriding factors tend to lie in what they would have liked from their spouse that was given in the affair.

Some random thoughts....

1) My sitch is somewhat different from most folks', but the worst part of the A for me was the lies. We were supposed to be partners, and partners don't lie about things that relate to the partnership IMO. Everything about the A was awful. But the lies were the worst for me. The lies hurt far more than anything else.

2) I believe we have free choices WRT how we view the A. We all have our deal breakers, but we don't have the same ones.

I didn't (and don't) give much of a shit about the past - my choice to R was based on how I saw my future, and I still think that is the best approach to getting out of infidelity. In fact, that's how I got us together. I thought she'd never go out with me (which was really being unaware of reality ), but I saw my future as pining away for her even though I knew I'd probably connect with some other women. Expecting to be shot down, I asked her out. That way, I'd at least know if I had a chance or not. I feared rejection for monthse, but rejection was way, way better than not knowing. The same thinking led me to ask if she was cheating a few times, but she lied.

3) Affairs happen in good Ms, according to Shirley Glass, especially when the WS has poor boundaries. We had a good M. The ow somehow convinced my very smart W that she was entitled to even more than a good M.

I guess the trouble is we're never just one thing. My W was very smart, in a good M, co-d, and a whole lot of other things. In the A, I believe co-d took command.

4) As bad as I felt, I've never doubted that the WS has it worse. They have to live with themselves, even though they often pretend to be in great emotional health. But I know some of the differences between good and lousy emotional health. I know something about pretense. My W got to have an A, but I'm happy I stayed as honest as I know how.

5) When W & I were getting together, I thought our relationship wouldn't really start until we took each other to bed. Sex was absolutely the desire that was foremost in my head. My desire for sex with W2b seemed so much stronger than anything else I wanted from her that it was all I thought about.

But my real desire was for a deep emotional connection. Sex was a pathway to that connection. I didn't realize it, though. (The sad, joke's on me part is that if I had been more self-aware, I might have gotten her into bed sooner. )

I write this because I'm not sure people who say 'it's just sex' know enough about themselves; IMO, the just sex folks are probably looking for something besides the sex - some sort of validation is my guess.

6) My father was in the army when I was conceived and born. (No DNA test is needed to establish fatherhood. I look like my a twin of my brother, my father, and his father.) The people in the armed forces live through lots of pain. They had to stuff the pain or die or go crazy. Most stuffed their feelings. I glued myself to the TV from 1950-1953 watching half-hour weekly reports (Saturdays, 1 PM) of the Korean war, and the news was not always good. I still have tapes in my head of dog fights between F86s and Mig 15s, attacks with flame-throwers, 'strategic' retreats in bitter cold, etc. So yeah, I was brought up to stuff painful feelings, and I learned my lessons well.

But the feelings are in control. Always. Whether the person knows it or not.

That's part of why I have a hard time believing sex is just about sex.

7) I, too, believe men are conditioned to worry about sexual exclusivity and women, emotional exclusivity, but I also think the more objective view is how men and women treat betrayal when sex is not involved. Are their differences between men and women when betrayal doesn't have a sexual aspect? Do men and women go through different feelings when, say, a friend violates a confidence or when one biz partner betrays another?

8) My reco is to make your goals healing and making a right choice for you. We're all unique in some ways, so what works for one person doesn't necessarily work for another. Your future depends on making a right choice for you, whatever that choice may be (within the constraints of the legal system).

IMO, the just sex folks are probably looking for something besides the sex - some sort of validation is my guess.

I agree 100%. When two people agree to have sex, they are in some way validating each other. I mean I guess some folks only have sex for procreation, but how is that not a form of validation as well?

In other news, people get upset when their partners validate someone else, even by having sex with them. Sometimes especially by having sex with them.