SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Another one for the list of "Dumb things cheaters say"!!

I forgot breaking your marriage vows by f*cking someone else was ‘morally’ right. Guess he really didn’t consider all the consequences of his actions when he chose that path.

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[This message edited by user4578 at 7:43 PM, Tuesday, August 20th]

So sorry to tell the rock star but the moment he cheated he negated all moral authority. There is nothing healthy about his actions.

So just to clarify a couple of things:

1. It’s only a JOB if it supports your life and your family. It’s a HOBBY if it doesn’t and someone else has to work an actual JOB that they find unrewarding and exhausting to support you and the family that you are also responsible for. So maybe if you’re going to talk about actual JOBS that either of you love, you can talk about what you’ve already sacrificed for years so that he could be a dad and partner who is free to not support you and the kids. But saying that this is the only job that he’s good and and has ever wanted—what even is that. How does he define job? How does he categorize this as his job other than that he spends huge amounts of time and energy on it that you foot the bill for?

2. As others have pointed out, he’s doing something he does a lot—turning it back around on you and saying that YOU are doing something morally wrong by forcing him to make a choice. This is a typical wayward move.

I suggest that you tell him that he is absolutely free to do whatever he wants. But the idea that YOU are at fault for his financial dependence on you is just something that should make you hit the roof. You didn’t force him to use your work and income to take care of HIS children and his partner and him. HE made the decision to keep riding on your back. So implying that you are doing something wrong (morally wrong? This is just laughable, pathetic and clueless.) by telling him that you’re not into doing that now that he also destroyed your life and security is just WAY too much.

I’m sorry, user, but he doesn’t get it. At all. He does not in any way accept that he is the one who has caused all of these consequences—mainly for you and his kids, but also the difficult ones for himself. He is blaming all of the consequences and results of HIS behavior on you, and not just the consequences of his A, but the consequences of all of his selfish choices up to now.

Every. Single. Thing. That he is complaining about right now: that he’s financially dependent on you, that he won’t be able to quickly make enough money to get his own place, that he is no longer able to use the person that he has devastated as his personal work and income producer, that his partner is no longer willing to be abused by his selfishness and neglect, that he is facing the horrible choice of having to become an adult and act like, well, every single other adult with families and responsibilities—all of those things are the result of his own bad and selfish choices, and honestly, most of us have to make the decision to support ourselves and be realistic about how to do that and take care of our families MUCH, MUCH SOONER, and we usually haven’t devastated and harmed and used everyone for years prior to deciding to grow up and enter the real world.

I’d like to give you hope, but honestly, his reaction to all of this right now says that he’s probably not going to be a good candidate for successful R whatever he decides here. My guess is that, if he decides to stay, he will use it to behave resentfully towards you and to not do the rest of the hard work to fix himself because he will feel that he’s given enough. He strikes me as that level of selfish and childish. He hasn’t at all realized the magnitude of what he did to you, so he’s going to feel that he hurt you (a little) and you hurt him (a lot—in fact, you took his most precious dreams).

So I’ll just say again that you don’t have to wait on him. You can decide. It might be good to tell him that you’ve thought about it, and you can see that his music is the most important thing to him. Since the financial part is holding him back, you’re going to decide for him and say that it’s best to separate for awhile. You could point out that your job pays the bills and you take care of the kids alone most of the time anyway, so he doesn’t need to worry about you and the kids. He is free to find his way with his music to actually making it a REAL JOB that supports him. This is what every single one of us has to do at some point: figure out if our dream can also keep us alive—literally, not just poetically.

It seems that he needs the chance to figure out on his own without you to blame whether or not his music is really a career. As long as you’re there to take care of all of the real stuff and to also take the blame for whatever goes wrong, he’s not ever going to do that kind of hard evaluation.

You’re still giving him all the power by making it his decision. You’re exactly right that it also gives him the power to resent you and blame you and draw a line that you can ONLY ask for this huge sacrifice and can’t then expect him to do the real work that you need from him (which is actually the important and extremely difficult part).

It’s your decision, of course, but my suggestion would be to tell him that he seems to need more time than you can give him while he’s hanging around bringing everybody down, so maybe it would be good for him to go to his mom’s for awhile to do his thinking.

And I’m sorry that he’s chosen the really worst non-decision possible for you. It seems that you’re going to have to be the one to do the work of moving things forward, as usual.

And just have to add: it’s still ALL about him. He is feeling sorry for himself and mistreated because you have stood up for yourself and your kids and told him what you’ve been feeling and what you need.

Shouldn’t at least a little of what he’s concerned about be you and the kids at some point in all of this?

User, I’ve been thinking about you often.
I have to agree with a lot of the people here when they say that this is his hobby , not his job. Trust me , if anyone gets how you feel I do.
My H just sold his music gear, almost all of it and now talking music or bringing up his old band makes him super sad. When I asked him why, I was expecting him to say " I miss it." But he didn’t.

He said " I spent so many years hurting so many people and spending so much money when I should have focused on my family."

Now, that didn’t happen overnight. I agree with a lot of other people when they say, you can make the decision without him deciding , you know your limits and i feel you’re a lot like me in the sense , a band has no place in your family or your marriage. It is what it is and it’s time he mans up and realizes that this lifestyle isn’t healthy for your or his children.

He can still love music and write and even record music without traveling , or playing gigs. My H wanted to go record some of his music he wrote before he sold his gear but he decided against it. He told me that his passion was gone when he turned around and looked back at the kids and I and the mess he created by being so unbelievably selfish and people pleasing to people that never mattered. I actually advised him to think long and hard before he sold all of his stuff and told him financially we didn’t need the money he would make from it. He asked me what I thought he should do and what I wanted. I told him that I refused to ever ask him to sell his gear because I refuse to be resented, it wasn’t my gear to sell , he’s extremely sentimental with his music equipment and I knew better than to ask him to sell it. He already quit the band, I didn’t feel right asking him to stop playing , I thought he loved it still. He gathered it all up and sold it, we put the money towards credit cards and he bought a new golf club.

I don’t think I have ever been more proud of him, of course I won’t celebrate outwardly because I know this is hard for him and he’s growing too but I’m so happy once I gave him the ultimatum he really dove deep into himself and why he truly wanted to be in a band. He came to all of the conclusions himself , if he wouldn’t habe , I would have walked and I don’t doubt that at all. He could have his "dream" that took and took and took from us financially , emotionally, and mentally and I would have raised our babies and that’s the real dream, not that.

Changing from being a selfish person is a long and hard road and I watch my H struggle sometimes but he doesn’t give up. Other times it’s easy for some things but I know growth is something your H and my H have to want in order to ever reconcile. They were/are both childish and selfish individuals, my H took about 5 months to see how awful he really treated people, mostly his kids and I.

I hope your H starts to see it too before he loses the real dream , and that’s you and the kids.

Honestly, I would not wait another minute for "his" decision. The fact that he needs time to decide between his kids and his band? That's a huge no from me. I don't want to be insulting to you, but I would be so mad at myself for wasting my time on someone who doesn't value his own children over a stupid band. It's beyond comprehension that anyone would need time to decide on this. It's just not time I'd even be willing to give.

I hope you’re hanging in there, user. You’re getting a lot of solid, hard earned perspectives that are hard to hear in a lot of ways, I know.

SackofSorry and Groot are so right. He is focused on himself and not on the kids. I can’t help but remember that a few days ago, they were trying to figure out ways to make dad WANT to stay home more. Even they can see that he isn’t prioritizing being home. And they’re trying to make being home (and themselves) more interesting and appealing to him. That breaks my heart. I know it breaks yours more. It is also very, very not good for them. Kids shouldn’t have to believe that they aren’t enough for a parent to be around.

Early on, I remember reading something over and over that I really needed to hear, both about myself and about my WH: Not making a decision IS a decision.

He isn’t just vacillating, he’s putting you and the kids and your life and everything, everything, everything in horrible uncertain stasis to avoid deciding. He’s going over and over in his head all of his usual rationalizations and excuses and blameshifting to make what you’ve asked of him the problem in his mind. At some point, I think we all have to realize that there is a whole world of dishonesty and delusion going on in the mind of a wayward in order to feel okay about being so selfish and disrespectful of the hearts and lives of others.

Do you think that he is thinking about you and what he’s done to you and them? Or, as you’ve said, do you think that he’s putting off deciding because he knows he’s financially dependent and wouldn’t be able to get his own place for a long time? Do you think that, as you said, he’s already feeling pissed off and defiant about giving up his music and not being able to decide to continue in the band without suffering economically? What does your gut tell you? Will he resent you and dig in on making any more concessions? Will he decide that what he’s given up just by staying at home with his family is the WORST suffering that has happened in all of this and feel resentful and angry at you? You probably have a pretty strong hunch on all this.

So just remember: not deciding IS deciding. It’s deciding on limbo. It’s deciding on avoidance. It means that when he doesn’t decide and also when you don’t. Sometimes we need to not decide for awhile. Sometimes there are good and healthy reasons to wait and not decide just yet.

Just make sure that the reasons that you’re not deciding are ones that are healthy for you and will take you forward to what you need. Make sure that it’s not stuffing yourself and trying to bargain with him to not leave.

I’m so so sorry that he didn’t come home devastated by what he’d done to all of you and ready to do anything to keep his family after reading what you wrote to him. We all know how much this hurts and how hard it is.

We’re here sending you as much wisdom and strength as we can. You are so strong and are doing better than you may think. Hang in there.

[This message edited by NowWhat106 at 8:34 AM, Monday, August 19th]

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[This message edited by user4578 at 7:44 PM, Tuesday, August 20th]

You have a teenager for a husband. He pays for HIS car and phone, that’s all. He has a job/hobby. He has no real responsibilities other than his own needs.
The relationship is totally out of kilter. Now told to man up, he deflects, pouts, and goes to his room. There you have it. You can stop this dynamic anytime you want.
The sooner, the better.

I think the main thing that’s been holding me back from actually leaving is that I know he sees things differently to me and that a lot of that is because of how he was brought up.

Nowhere is it written that you must get a betrayer to see the error of their ways before separating from them. That could be a forever wait, some never see it. His delusional bullshit cannot be allowed to dictate your life. It will snuff out your light if you let it.

You have a teenager for a husband. He pays for HIS car and phone, that’s all.

I think the main thing that’s been holding me back from actually leaving is that I know he sees things differently to me and that a lot of that is because of how he was brought up.

Where is it written that you and your WS need to agree on the way you get out of infidelity?

Sure, you need to both agree to R, but you don't need to agree if one of you wants to split.

You're apologizing for thinking about just ending your M. Gently, that's a reason for celebrating. You're taking responsibility for yourself! You're taking action on behalf of yourself and your young kids! Tou're even doing something to help your oldest kid - your WS, that is - to become an adult!

Right now, you're letting your H decide between staying and going. He's not agreeing to do anything to change from cheater to good partner. You're accepting way less than you deserve, and by letting him off without demanding that change, you're doing both of you a disservice.

You're making excuses for him. Stop.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 7:41 PM, Monday, August 19th]

Please know that no one here blames you. We all understand all of this because, well, we’ve ALL made some excuses for our WHs to continue behaving in wayward ways at some point. At the very least, most of us had been making excuses for behavior that we shouldn’t have tolerated for a long time before their As.

And making those excuses was a disservice to ourselves and our kids. It was also a disservice to our WHs and allowed them to continue to behave in destructive and childish ways. BUT it is not our job to mother and raise and CONVINCE our wayward spouses to grow up and take responsibility for themselves. That is a losing proposition that puts us in the position of being their mean and demanding parent while they continue to be spoiled children. It is a losing proposition.

Oh friend, ASK ME HOW I KNOW.

Like you, I made excuses for why my WH wasn’t coming around faster. It was hard. After you’ve spent a lifetime indulging your every selfish impulse and expecting to be treated like a special spoiled child by everyone, including yourself. After getting used to lying on the regular to everyone, including yourself, in order to just do what you wanted and not have to deal with anyone’s objections or complaints. It’s HARD to suddenly be upfront and honest. It’s HARD to decide to put other people’s needs before your smallest whims. I made all the excuses for him. He didn’t even have to work hard to make excuses for himself.

In fact, instead of making excuses, he was pissed. He was defensive. He accused me of wanting to hurt him back by demanding unreasonable things. He called me unforgiving.

And I made excuses for why it was just taking him awhile to get there. I told myself he was trying but it was harder for him to do what I had been doing every single day for the duration of our marriage and put my spouse and my kids needs above my own whims.

Spoiler alert—he wasn’t trying. And I continued telling myself that he was. Sister, I told myself that lie FOR FIVE YEARS AFTER THE A until one day I woke up (literally) and had the clear thought that he wasn’t doing what I asked because he didn’t want to. Period.

And he was expecting me to give up and give in like always. He was nursing his resentments like he had for a long time and telling himself that I was angry and was taking it out on him and asking for unreasonable things. But he was also waiting for it to blow over and expecting that he would ultimately be able to continue without changing.

Your WH may really be different. I don’t know him. But I can tell you that we’ve all seen this over and over. A WS that understands that he’s caused unspeakable pain and damage doesn’t stall and negotiate and deflect. If he does those things, he’s still seeing himself in the driver’s seat, and he’s still thinking that it’s up to him to decide everyone’s fate because he’s been able to call all the shots for a long time.

It is hard for both of you to change those patterns. I really, really know this. It’s just important for us, as BSs, to realize our own patterns to. So yes, I’ll tell you gently that you are making excuses for him that you wouldn’t allow yourself. Both of you are acting like he’s a child who operates under different rules than the grownups He pays for the car and his expenses. You pay for the actual life and kids and reality that he gets to benefit from. And he HELPS WHEN HE CAN. My sister, anytime that you look at what your partner does as optional HELPING OUT instead of as an equal responsibility that isn’t special or a gift to you, there is an unhealthy imbalance in both of your thinking. I thought this way for years. And so did my WH, the other parent of my children who he "helped out with" occasionally.

I’ve written another essay here. I"m sorry. I see so much of myself in your thinking. You’ve always been the capable one taking on all the burden. You’re strong. And you’ve allowed both of you to define him as special and needing more and not as able to handle the difficult realities of the world. It isn’t helping either of you for you to continue to make all of these allowances for him now.

Yes, it is allowing him not to have to deal with your pain and pull his head out of, er, the clouds of his rockstar dreams. But I’m thinking more about what it’s doing to you. Because I know really well how damaging it was in a very long-term way for me to give my WH so much time to continue to hurt me by not choosing me and my kids. I didn’t even realize that’s what I was doing. I was telling myself that he was working on it.

But instead, I was letting what I thought was his indecision and weakness continue to do damage to me and my kids. If he thinks that he gets to take all this time to think this over after months of watching you suffer through the pain of his A, I’m sorry, but I think it’s more likely he’s expecting not to have to decide at all. He’s telling you that he thinks deciding to do what you’ve asked would be morally wrong. He’s working at framing everything as something that’s being done to HIM. Something that’s wrong and unfair.

Does this sound like he’s trying to do what’s needed? Or does it sound like he’s trying to rationalize righteously continuing to pursue his dream as the RIGHT thing to do in the face of unfair demands?

If waiting is necessary or helpful to you and the kids, then wait. Sometimes, it just takes a little bit more time for the truth to come clear to us when we’re operating in trauma. And as many of us know and I surely do, that waiting can be damaging in new ways to us. That’s what everyone is worried about for you.

We all have to get out of infidelity in our own way based on our own circumstances and strengths. What others say here is meant to help and inform you from farther down the road we’re all walking. Most of all, please hear the care and concern for you and your kids in all of the posts here.

We’re here no matter what you decide. This shit is so hard. And it really sucks. Keep moving forward.

I know this crap is hard, but OMG, this man makes me so mad for you!

I mean, he needs to talk to his mommy and his friend? Rather than encouraging him to speak to them, I'd be reminding him that he's an adult and it's time he acted like one. I think it's high time that everyone stops enabling this man baby. And he has the nerve to talk about pandering to children? Everyone is pandering to HIM, and he's the biggest child I've heard of in quite a while.

I know that marriages work in different ways, and people have different ways of handling their finances but come on, again this is an adult that made children with you. He needs to be held accountable for that. He needs to support them financially, just as you do. Not chip in when he gets around to it and can afford to do so after taking care of himself. The audacity! Again, so furious for you!

You deserve so much more, and so do his children.

I am new to this site. I’ve read your story and I am so sad and sorry you are having to experience this. I haven’t posted about my story yet. I also don’t understand the abbreviations. I am the betrayed spouse.
One of the things I have learned to do on my journey which has helped me, is to reverse the situation. I get the impression that one of your fears might be what others (such as your partners mum) might think of you. I can tell you are a very kind person who is worried you might be making a selfish choice by asking him to make some changes to his life. Have a think about whether, if you had cheated on him at work, would you be behaving how he has behaved? Would you be angry with him for requesting that you maybe change jobs because he feels worried you might be tempted to cheat on him again. Would you feel grateful that he is staying and not running around telling everyone every detail of what he’s done? Would you be grateful that he is protecting you and your children by not telling them that you cheated? Try to think of every situation in reverse. It really helped me gain perspective doing this. I bet if you were in his position you would feel horrible about making him wait a minute to find out the fate of his marriage and his future. You are feeling the weight of responsibility of his happiness and what he might think of you for asking for some things that you feel might give your marriage a chance. If I was in your shoes I would say that by him needing time to make a decision on everything, it is making it very clear where his priorities are and that you would like a break apart to have time to make your own decisions. Your children are young so you will be able to think of a reason why daddy might have to go away for a bit that they will believe.
I do feel that he needs a big wake up call, I think you need to think about protecting your assets and your future security. I hate to be blunt but if it doesn’t work out, is he the type who might try to take half of everything? Take some time away to set yourself up to be AMAZING on your own, if in that time he has an epiphany and realised what an amazing woman he is losing, you can take your time to decide if taking him back is best for you and your children.
Don’t feed his narrative of him being the victim of you taking away his dream. We all have dreams. One of them is having the fairy tale partner who never betrays you. He’s already stamped all over that one.
For now I have decided to stay, I understand why you want it to work. I have told my husband in no uncertain terms that if he ever cheats again it is over. It’s terrifying but I feel very strong, it’s been about 3 years since I found out and so far he has made all the changes I’ve asked him to make. I have made it very clear too that if he wants the privilege of staying a part of our family unit, I will not tolerate any blame for changes he’s had to make for us to stay together. In no way am I saying I’m perfect but I never cheated, I know that any spouse/partner on the betrayed side could come up with all sorts of valid reasons why they could have chosen to cheat, but we didn’t because we know it’s not right. Your partner has made his choices and has to cope with the consequences.
Remember, reverse the situation, and don’t feed the victim narrative. Those are the two things I’ve learned so far that have kept me together.
You are stronger than you know and you are worth so much more than to be put on hold while he decides. You have to be your own best friend, stand up for yourself, treat yourself like you hope your children would treat themselves if they were adults in this situation. Don’t allow yourself or others to tell you you are being unfair. Like you say, you haven’t asked him to give up music, you are just asking him to do the things that might give you a chance to cope and keep your family unit together. If he can’t do that, that’s on him. There is never a perfect time to meet things head on. I do think that by giving him so much time to think, you are feeding his narrative that he is the victim and he has the power and you are the doormat. I so sorry if I’ve been blunt in any of this. I know everything hurts right now. You don’t have to make a ‘marriage or divorce’ decision but telling him you don’t want him in the house if it’s taking him more than a second to decide whether he’s prepared to fight for you all or not, is powerful and fair. You can do this. I am so impressed with how measured you’ve been so far. You can do this!

t/j

The list of acronyms is in the Healing Library.

end t/j

I fully understand the shock and confusion of this situation, especially in the beginning. You don't know which is up or down, you don't understand your own life anymore, what is true/what is false, etc. It's a horrible nightmare. I can say that when I first found out, like many/most, I didn't know what to do. Despite so many of us, including me, who thought I can't take that, if this happens, then that happens - meaning that so many of us think before cheating happens that if it ever happens, it's over. Then it happens, and everything is not so cut and dry when it's suddenly real.

So, I found out suddenly out of blue that my husband had seen a prostitute. Obviously, I was livid, I was confused, I was upset ... all the feels. I didn't know what to do. There was a 2 week period where life kind of went on, him lying, me trying to understand my life, me not knowing he was lying ... And then I got the opportunity to search his phones, and I found out that there were more prostitutes, not just one. And that was it. I woke him up, threw the phones at him and told him to get out.

Honestly, it was the best thing I could have done. It gave me a power. It told him (and me!) that I wasn't going to take it. I was willing to end the marriage based on what he did. I wasn't a door mat. I didn't have to give him a second chance. I didn't have to accept his lies and excuses. It was my choice what I was going to do about this, not his.

I couldn't agree more that him not making a quick decision is a decision.

Everyone else has covered a lot but this stood out to me.

I don’t know how much longer to give him. He has four gigs that he would have to do (last one is middle of next month) due to visa issues (they wouldn’t have enough time to find a replacement and get a visa for them in time),

You owe this band nothing! Not one thing. You don’t have to protect them from the consequences of his actions. Tough. So what if they can’t replace him. Zero extra points for you having to suffer longer so others aren’t inconvenienced. Please don’t set yourself on fire to keep someone else warm. What you need is what you need…period.

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[This message edited by user4578 at 7:44 PM, Tuesday, August 20th]

The overall conclusion to it is that I don’t want to be with someone who needs a week or more to decide if they want to be with me and do the work to fix what they’ve broken, that I’ve made the decision for him and I’m done.

With the atrocious circumstances you are in, that sounds like a very reasonable stance. I know it’s painful and terrifying, and undoubtedly there will be challenges in the future, but this is a strong step in a positive direction. I’m proud of you, you got there a hell of a lot faster than I did.