SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I’m going to throw this out as it seems to be a common occurrence on this board where the cheating partner has some sort of mental issues going on. Be it sexual trauma at some point in their lives, bipolar issues, manic breaks etc. I’m sure that in a tie breaking situation that this would break the tie in favor of reconciliation. But is it a get out of jail pass? I have my thoughts on this, but since I’m not close to this, my thoughts are very flexible. I can probably be swayed to either side as like I said I haven’t lived this.

I do also recognize how difficult this can be and I understand that be it reconciling or divorce an over riding factor has to be the safety of the partner who cheated with issues in keeping them from any self destruction. But does this mean the BS has to stay no matter what the WS has done do to mental issues?

Again, this might be sensitive, but it comes up so often. Not judging, but trying to learn.

In my situation, I learned of levels of trauma in my wife that I never dreamed existed just in the months and even days leading up to D-day. For me, that created an environment where it created sympathy and compassion for her even in light of the betrayal and it gave me a sense of hope that if those traumas could be addressed that a future relationship could be much better than what I’d experienced up to that point.

Looking back, I think I confounded those things too much for too long, almost thinking that if she addressed the trauma that it would be equivalent to addressing the A. In reality it all needed to be addressed. She did seem to try to go after the trauma but was not interested in combatting the affair.

So all that to say, knowledge of her issues motivated me to try. But that was only one consideration in the grander picture, and eventually I burned out. Those issues were not a free pass.

Mental health issues aren’t the fault of the WS, but it is their responsibility. I am a survivor of CSA, and PTSD from my time in iraq. Never cheated. Never even considered it a possibility. No, mental health issues are not an excuse for any behavior. I once had a flashback and ended up yelling at a waitress. That was my fault, not hers, and I had to face the consequences for it. I am still responsible for my actions.

Everyone has issues and trauma. My WWs issues are not even into consideration as to why I chose R, and honestly if she blamed it all on that I would leave. Is it something that
contributed? Yeah probably and she needs to work on herself, but to me that’s a cop out not a pass.

So, I don’t say it all that often but I was having what they used to call a nervous breakdown around the time of my affair. They called it emotional exhaustion. I talked about it more in my earlier days here. I also had developed OCD, and high levels of anxiety with panic attacks that had become unmanageable. I just figured I wasn’t cut out for married and family life, I couldn’t do it. I couldn’t see that because I people pleased and was a perfectionist that I added tons of work for myself. To my husband this was invisible I did everything with a smile and an I love you.

Not all mental health issues mask right from wrong. I think for people reconciling where a mental health issue is at play must take ownership over their mental health issues (whenever possible) and still take accountability that they have other character flaws such as a lack of integrity to name just one.

I think like Inkhulk said, my husband knew that I wasn’t myself going into the affair, and that I felt in ways I normally wouldn’t so he was more willing to work with me on them. But the OCD came with intrusive thoughts about ap, and he really got exhausted in my deep abyss of not being able to recognize me anymore. I took up smoking there for a while which is outrageously not me. My nerves were frayed nd I was looking for anything that calmed me down. I sat aimlessly in parks staring at the water and trying to write in a gratitude journal to find some glimpse of a spark to get back to my life. I wanted to die but I couldn’t do it to my kids.

That meant we had about ten months of spinning our wheels with no return. And he just didn’t feel the same about me anymore.

After medication, treatment, hard work to find ways to cope, I finally was ready. But he was checked out, and seeing how hard I was working he felt he couldn’t just go back to asking for a divorce but he was done.

The complexity of his affair is part of me is glad he did that instead of divorcing me. That sounds really spectacularly crazy. But I would have given him the divorce with favorable settlements and we wouldn’t have made it. I am not happy about nor do I celebrate his affair, but I think we were meant to be together and stay together for many reasons and if this is how it worked out, after all I put him through I accept it. I almost didn’t do that either.

Don’t get me wrong, today if it happened or if he asked for a divorce I am now solid. I can take things and work through them and my happiness is my responsibility that I take seriously. But mental health issues do prolong recovery because until those can be addressed you can’t usually get to a place where reconciliation is possible. Some are more treatable than others, and it puts a lot on the bs to suffer through. After infidelity, I think it can Be considered or not considered as a factor but the ws should not be blaming it on that. They still need to be willing to take accountability for their behavior and lack of managing their life.

I have also noticed mental health issues being cited by BS as the cause of their WS cheating. How often do we see BSs talking about their WS being NPD or BDP? Very often.

I don't know if mental heath issues caused my cheating. Most everyone that knows me do say I am crazy.

I do know it was an ego thing. My friends always bragging about me being a babe magnet stroked my ego. Is that a mental health issue?

I should never have married in my 20s. I wasn't ready nor mature enough to be married until I hit my 30s. I almost didn't marry the ex-W. I was talked out of backing out because she was pregnant with my child. I was getting pressure from a lot of different sides. That is what you did in those days. Don't get me wrong. I did love her just not enough to not cheat on her.

In my opinion, NO! It isn't a get out of jail card. Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.

Don't get me wrong. I did love her just not enough to not cheat on her.

This is a fallacy.

I think someone who is capable of cheating is capable of it regardless of love. WS often have a skewed sense for what love is, that is true. But the way you are stating it says "she didn’t capture me enough to hold me" it makes it sound like you are trying to describe the amount of lovable she was.

Truth is, your cheating had nothing at all to do with her. External forces don’t cause cheating it’s lack of internal values and boundaries that cause cheating.

Whether or not you loved her is irrelavant. Someone incapable of cheating wouldn’t do it even if they didn’t love their spouse. I am not saying this to attack you, but because what you are saying throws the worst fears of a bs in their face. They think they weren’t enough for the ws. Reality is the ws wasn’t enough for them. They weren’t mature enough, they didn’t have enough integrity, they didn’t have enough balls to leave the situation if that’s what they wanted, or they are just a cake eater who wants whatever they want at whatever cost to others.

[This message edited by hikingout at 9:23 PM, Wednesday, May 15th]

But does this mean the BS has to stay no matter what the WS has done do to mental issues?

No in fact I left because of his mental issues. The serial cheating was a symptom of his personality disorder.

We actually examined if she had some sort of psychotic break that caused her to cheat, and in the manner she did. Turns out it was more of a mid life crisis, which probably could be argued was a mental breakdown. If you had looked at her history of head of the PTA, tons of charity work which was acknowledged by newspapers and awards, very tight boundaries, she was the last person you would had thought would have gone off the rails.

My daughters still think she just went crazy and was one of the reasons I became the bad guy. She in their minds wasn’t in her right mind, while I made a calculated decision to divorce.

I’m not sure that if it had been a psychotic break the outcome would have been different. But in cases of CSA or other mental illness I’m not sure how I woukd have handled it. I certainly woukd have been more sympathetic.

But does this mean the BS has to stay no matter what the WS has done due to mental issues?

You don't have to stay due to any issues.

My younger sister & I are CSA survivors. She's also bipolar and didn't get on meds until in her 20's. Neither of us cheated.

Like CBS, my XWH is NPD. I left because he didn't think there was anything wrong with him and he wasn't going to do the work to be a safe partner. After I was able to detach, I noped right outta there.

In terms of culpability, I think there is a GIGANTIC difference between someone cheating (spurred on by terrible coping mechanisms created due to a difficult or traumatic childhood) or cheating as a way to mask/avoid negative feelings or self-soothe during a depressive or quasi depressive episode (super common!!!) and someone who cheats during an actual diagnosed manic or psychotic episode where they have (clinically) experienced a mental break from reality (far less common). I don't think we should be lumping run of the mill unhappiness/discontent/mid life crises or even clinical depression with genuine, clinical psychotic breaks.

If we focus on the former, much more common group, I think those factors are important and relevant and important to understand and address if that WS intends to become a safe partner, but NONE of them are an excuse. None of it impacts culpability. Unfortunately depression and shitty childhoods and traumatic experiences are common, and yet all of us are expected to adhere to the social contract in order to live in our society. If you murder someone, you don't get to say, "I'm sorry I killed that person your honour, but I was sad and my mother was cruel and my father drank too much so it's not my fault". That backstory may be true (and may even be relevant at sentencing - ie the consequences stage) but none of that impacts your guilt/innocence. If you did it (actus reus) and knew what you were doing at the time (mens rea), you are guilty of the crime. Full-stop.

There are a few very rare exceptions where people are successful in pleading "insanity" because due to mental illness or whatever they truly were not capable of forming the necessary mens rea (ie. the less common group described abvoe), but bar for this is high and I dont think this is what we're generally talking about in most cases here.

So yeah, barring a very few extremely exceptional cases, I don't think it's a "get out of free" card. And let's be honest, no truly remorseful WS is looking at using this information in order to decrease their fault. For any wrongdoer, a bit part of rehabilitation is fully owing what you did and understanding why so you can make amends and make sure you never do it again.

No matter what "group" the WS does or does not fall into, I don't think the BS is EVER required to stay.

I do know it was an ego thing. My friends always bragging about me being a babe magnet stroked my ego. Is that a mental health issue?

Nope, it's typical validation issues. You were insecure and relied on others to prop yourself up. It had nothing to do with how much you did or didn't love your wife. You didn't know how to love yourself so you obviously didn't understand how to love someone else.

I disagree hikingout!

I don't cheat on my current wife of 40+ years because I love her enough not to hurt her. That stops me cold from cheating on her. With my ex-W and the shotgun wedding, it just wasn't enough to stop my roaming.

Atomic-
This is a bit of a thread jack, but you still have a cheating mentality. You’re blaming your ex for your actions, just as you are putting the responsibility of you being loyal on your current W. Honestly, I find it difficult to believe you never crossed lines again with this mentality. You, only you are responsible for cheating. No one forced you to marry, you just didn’t have the courage to say no. Your ex didn’t cause you to cheat, you just didn’t have the courage to D or make it work. Did you ever work on yourself at all?

Waitedtolong,

Mid life crisis is a cop out, and i personally don’t believe in them. It’s an excuse not a reason. I also don’t believe the "I wasnt my self" line. A lot of WS throw that out, to include my WW. Lack of character and courage to hold integrity mixed in with extreme selfishness, thrill of taboo, and the ignorance/denial that they will be caught. I’m sorry that your kids have blamed you, but I don’t think they understand. I get it, she
Is their mom, she will always hold that place in their hearts. You saw the real face, and did what was best for you

Waited too long,

I can see how the added part where she wasn’t doing well with her mental health created an extra layer of guilt for you. Sometimes I think that you are the poster child for why a ws might should consider pulling the divorce trigger. It must be very tough to get cheated on and then struggle with it for five years and finally come to the conclusion you must divorce and have that all contested by everyone too. It comes down to what we have been talking about- not everyone understands the effects of infidelity.

I am a CSA survivor too. I don’t think it led me to cheat, a lot of people are that. But I do think not ever dealing with it added to a load of shame that made me feel unlovable.

None of these excise the behavior. I wasn’t myself by a long shot, but I had gotten there by being asleep at the wheel. But as I have already stated, no it’s not an excuse to cheat or a get out of jail free. I agree with emergent that there may be some deceptions to the rule but I think they would be very rare.

Truth is some personality disorders do render you to have a lack of empathy or taking accountability, such as NPD, but in those cases the ba needs to accept that some of those things is unlikely to be curable. It’s not an excuse to cheat, but if I were a bs and found out my spouse was NPD, I probably would not try and reconcile due to the incurable factor. And likely if they are that they are abusive in many other ways too.

I don’t think I have been abusive in anyway other than my affair and and the aftermath but it’s always a valid reason to divorce regardless of the situation. Even if someone had a complete mental break like what emergent is pointing at, I still don’t think you have to stay married to the person. Someone who is having those deep of problems could be dangerous on top of everything. I don’t think there is a get out of jail free card for cheating.

I don't cheat on my current wife of 40+ years because I love her enough not to hurt her. That stops me cold from cheating on her.

This is like saying I love my kids too much to murder them. Or that I love my employer too much to steal from them. The fact that I would even bring those vices up speaks of my own internal state, not the kids or the boss. I don’t murder or steal from anyone, because I just don’t do those things because I personally hate them. Needs to be the same for cheating to have any reliable self control.

WWTL, along with emergent’s line of thinking, are you talking more along the lines of chronic or acute issues? The temporary mid life crisis or the deeply embedded FOO?

Mid life crisis is a cop out, and i personally don’t believe in them. It’s an excuse not a reason. I also don’t believe the "I wasnt my self" line. A lot of WS throw that out, to include my WW. Lack of character and courage to hold integrity mixed in with extreme selfishness, thrill of taboo, and the ignorance/denial that they will be caught.

I feel it just depends.

I know a midlife crisis is real because I have had one. My depression/exhaustion/nervous breakdown were spurred on by empty nest and realizing I had lost myself in tasks and taking care of others. It’s as cliche as an man buying a reds sports car, but in the depths of it, it’s very disturbing, distressing, and disorienting.

I can say that with a straight face and still say I take full accountability for my decisions. It doesn’t have to be mutually exclusive. I think We agree on the important part here though.

[This message edited by hikingout at 12:58 AM, Thursday, May 16th]

I don't cheat on my current wife of 40+ years because I love her enough not to hurt her. That stops me cold from cheating on her. With my ex-W and the shotgun wedding, it just wasn't enough to stop my roaming.

In your first post on this thread, you indicated that you loved your first wife, but you cheated because you were immature and liked the ego boost your friends' gave you for being such a stud. At that time in your life, the opinions of other mattered more to you than the opinions of your spouse. Heck, it sounds like you weren't even ready to be married but did so because other people told you you should. You certainly were swayed by other people at that point in your life. It doesn't sound like it had anything to do with your first wife, or the OW but had everything to do with you and your maturity levels. You have indicated that if she didn't divorce you, you would have stayed married to her and continued cheating.

You cheated in subsequent relationships before you met your now wife. Less than a month ago, you indicated on another thread that you cheated on your current wife before you got married and only stopped when the OW indicated she might screw up your current relationship. You were never caught and planned to take it to your grave, until somewhat recently when you disclosed. Note: It's a bit disingenuous to romanticize this part of your 40 year marriage by leaving out the fact that the majority of it was built on a lie, but that's just my opinion

It sounds to me, like the main difference in your second marriage is that YOU grew up. You had faced real consequences in your first marriage (the loss of your marriage and the destruction of your family) and you came real close to losing this relationship too. Maybe this was the wake up call you needed to be scared straight, I don't know, only you can answer that. For whatever reason, you decided to stop making the same bad decisions that you did in your first marriage. For the first time, you decided you valued fidelity and you took steps to prioritize that in your relationship, by putting the esteem of your spouse above the admiration of your immature friends. In other posts, you've talked about how you understood you had shitty boundaries previously and so you needed to tighten up and be vigilant. You mention having cut ties for 30 years with your friends. That's a big deal. I have no doubt your wife is a wonderful person, and maybe that did motivate you to want to be better, but the difference wasn't her. The difference was you.

Suggesting your ability to be faithful was dependent on HER qualities is a cop-out. It may sound nice to say it's all about your love for her, but it allows you to evade responsibility for your own actions.

I can see how the added part where she wasn’t doing well with her mental health created an extra layer of guilt for you.

It actually didn’t. I never felt guilt about about that. Mid life crisis I do believe are real. But the best answer is to do things that bolster your self worth. Volunteering, getting a job, getting into better shape. Even buying a sports car or remodel the house (which we did as I recognized she needed something else. Anything but screwing the electrician or me banging my secretary. My guilt more stems of how I became such a bitter awful person who relished in causing her pain.

WWTL, along with emergent’s line of thinking, are you talking more along the lines of chronic or acute issues? The temporary mid life crisis or the deeply embedded FOO

More towards the acute issues as I don’t see mid life crisis as any kind of excuse. My question was more geared to those who I read here that have a WS with real issues. Do those get a pass?

Mid life crisis is a cop out, and i personally don’t believe in them. It’s an excuse not a reason. I also don’t believe the "I wasnt my self" line.

Like I said I think they are real, and she was going through it. The thing that her actions were so diametrically opposed to the person she was, and I think still is. I have gotten beaten up by a few here who said what she did was the "real" her, but don’t buy it. I knew her intimately for over 25 years before the affair and she wasn’t the screwed up sex crazed person she was during her weeks long affair. Doesn’t give her a pass, but she really wasn’t herself. I hired hundreds of people in my career. A few bad apples snuck through the interview process, but I was savvy enough to see the bad ones pretty quickly

I have gotten beaten up by a few here who said what she did was the "real" her, but don’t buy it. I knew her intimately for over 25 years before the affair and she wasn’t the screwed up sex crazed person she was during her weeks long affair. Doesn’t give her a pass, but she really wasn’t herself.

I can see it kind of both ways.

I feel like a lot of the ways you describe your wife would match closely to what my husband would say about me. I honestly was as good of a wife as I could be. I was agreeable, loyal, understanding, helpful, thoughtful, took great care of everything and all the things. It’s who I wanted to be, and that came for a long time from an authentic place. After a while it felt expected rather than appreciated, and so I would look for other ways to impress him to get the recognition that I used to.

The harder I tried the less energy I was putting into exactly the things you said - hobbies, passions, outlets. If I had those, and took less on so I could nurture my soul in that way, I would still have had a relationship with myself. I had no idea what I might like to do with my time now that there was more of it. I doubled down and found more things to bury myself in because one of my bad coping skills was keeping myself overly busy.

That’s during the time I am constantly doing things for 12-18 hour days 6-7 days a week for about a year and a half. Some of this was driven by anxiety and OCD. Still, it didn’t seem appreciated. It wasn’t appreciated because he was not the one requiring it. I felt he no longer loved me. But I sure would keep me around if I were him. Why couldn’t I like him have a wife like me?

These were my thoughts, but a lot of it was irrational. That’s where I wasn’t myself.

However, It was always me to bury my head in tasks, allowing me to escape from reality, from my emotions, etc. it was always me who felt unlovable even though there have been clearly more memories over my marriage of feeling loved than not.

I never looked at other men or thought things about them. I mean maybe I might think an actor is attractive, but that was the extent of it. Being open to flirting was not like me. Not even a little bit. I always felt completely devoted to my husband.

What was like me is to deeply need validation. I didn’t know how to give that to myself. All my validation in my career, at home, with school, with my parents was a result of a lot of hard work. And it only counted to me if they appreciated how hard I worked.

I never lied to him once until my affair. Yet as a teen I was quite a liar. Never about anything that meant anything, a liar for no reason. Just to make things sound better. I became self aware of it and made myself stop. So in that sense, I could be a liar, I had shown I was capable of it. Yet this lying remained dormant in me for twenty years until I wanted to use it to make believe I was this other person. And suddenly, I am in this place again trying to make everything sound better than it was. It felt like another version of me, I sort of wondered which one was me.

I didn’t know because again, I didn’t have that kind of relationship with myself. All I knew was this felt exciting and I was soon willing to trade my soul to the devil for it. It was the best I had felt in a long time. But it was all made up, who I was being was all made up in this big lie playing out in my head. The addiction was to the lie.

The hyperesexualized version of your wife that you described, this was her living a different version of herself. What that version was or how it was orchestrated I can not tell you.

But what I can tell you is that in her crisis mode of no longer knowing who she was or who she wanted to be, this was her trying out a version of herself that did exist. Whether she preferred that version is doubtful to me. Why? Because even if we don’t feel in touch with ourselves, who we are most of our life is most likely the version of ourselves we liked best. You knew the predominant her, when she was sure of her role in this world. When she became disillusioned with where she found herself in midlife, she acted out something different that likely she had some experience with earlier in life. Perhaps a past boyfriend that used her sexually for example. Midlife crisis is about revisiting your youth and the using the framing of it to imagine your life differently.

I don’t know if that helps explain why it was her, but maybe not a her that she liked. I was back to being a liar to sound better than I was, but that is a version of myself that I parted ways with decades ago. That’s why I agree with you about midlife crisis.

[This message edited by hikingout at 2:56 AM, Thursday, May 16th]

InkHulk, I am very aware of my cheating ways. I used to have keep myself in constant check because I didn't want to hurt my wife by cheating on her. It is no different than an alcoholic or drug addict avoiding alcohol or crack. Like I said 40+ years happily married for both myself and my wife. She has never had to stray. Doesn't have it in her.

I say used to because starting in 2010 I worked from home. Never interacted with anyone and I never went out. Now I am retired, that isn't even an issue because I never go out.

emergent8--Bingo! You are absolutely correct. I wasn't ready to get married. I married her because I didn't want my son to be born a bastard. We were together 3 years or less. I was definitely too immature wanting the next hot girl to come along.

HellsNotHalfFull--I don't believe I once said I blamed my ex-W. She was actually very wonderful woman. I was getting pressure to marry her by my family and friends because she was pregnant. They all loved her. She did not pressure me. That is what was expected of you back in those days where I was from. I blame myself for marrying her when I didn't want to get married. I should have stood my ground and offered to hold up my end with time and money to support our son.