SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

A thought popped into my head this morning - is infidelity just another part of the human condition?

Are we all selfish at our core on some level, to one degree or another ? No matter the cost to others?

I've had a bit of a tough time lately, being let down by people (not including the obvious WH). My mother in law, my team leader and a colleague who i have known for years, who I consider a good friend. All have behaved with a large degree of selfishness, but that i don't consider to be deliberately horrible people.

I think pretty much every human on the planet are all guilty of doing things that bring us some sort of temporary feel-good-feeling but that we ultimately know, isn't good for us. Whether it be smoking, drinking, drugs, over-spending, over-working, over/under eating, being self sacrificial.

I wonder whether in some capacity, affairs are not too dissimilar. It's odd that infidelity is, at large, condemned universally, but yet practiced universally. In some cultures it is punishable by death, but yet people still do it. WHY? Same in the way that we all are well aware that smoking greatly increases your risk of cancer. But yet people still do it. WHY? Are affairs just another form of vice? And until the root cause of why that vice is needed in the first place, it will continue to be a risk?

Whilst I can't say that receiving a shit load of validation from someone wouldn't make me feel a certain excitement and flattery, I can say that with all certainly that the negative consequences of taking a part of in an affair would hurt me far more then any pleasure I could get from it. I'm guessing that it is the other way around for people who cheat? And maybe, only until the pleasure/pain drive in someone is reversed, can they truly become a safe bet. Like the alcoholic who has to truly hit rock bottom and lose everything. Until the gain of drinking is outweighed by the negative outcomes of drinking (in their mind), can they become sober.

This only really popped into my head this morning because we had a domino's pizza last night, and we were both suffering with dodgy tummys this morning - as we usually do after a domino's. I was asking myself, "why do we do it? We know what the outcome will be". But I know the answer - because at the time, it was worth it (just to make it clear, I am not comparing a domino's to infidelity 😉).

[This message edited by WhiskeyBlues at 4:56 PM, Wednesday, May 1st]

Are we all selfish at our core on some level, to one degree or another?

I would have to say "yes" to that. We are all flawed and part of that flaw is being selfish. Ever eat more than half of something you’re sharing with a friend or your spouse? Or, buy a bag of cookies which you know everyone in the house likes, but you hide it to have it all to yourself? That’s selfish. But selfishness isn’t self-centeredness, and that’s the other half of your question line. Only being concerned you are getting what you want regardless of how it affects those around you and those you love IS being self-centered. I think it’s the next level of selfishness.

I agree with you, as well, on people having to hit "rock bottom" before they truly understand the pleasures are outweighed by the consequences, even if they have been receiving warnings along the way. I believe it is those individuals who lose their spouse.

Too, I think there is an addiction to the attention, the validation, the excitement of doing something wrong knowing if they get caught, they will be in big trouble. It’s like a kid sneaking cigarettes from their parents then going behind the garage and smoking them. They know eventually they will get caught, but until they do, they will continue to enjoy the pleasure until they do get caught. They think all they must do is say they are sorry, promise to never do it again, and life goes back to normal. But that addiction draws them back, and the longer the sin has gone on, the more difficult it is to break the dependency on the high of the "adventure".

Why do we do "it", whatever the "it" might be? Because our self-centeredness enjoys the self-gratification. It keeps coming back to putting yourself before your spouse.

Are we all selfish at our core on some level, to one degree or another ?

We do spend a lifetime trying to create and defend our selves, whatever that is.

Did you cheat? Have you cheated? I haven't, despite opportunity, and there are tens of thousands of BSs here who haven't. Infidelity may be common, but it is by no means universal.

Honestly about everything is part of the human condition, but yes I agree.

I don’t see it as an out or an excuse. I think there are all sorts of things that we go through that is part of our growth and everyone has different areas they need to grow in.

Considering over 50 percent of marriages are effected by infidelity (and I think that is a low ball percentage), and despite each affair being unique it’s not that surprising to find that a ws often has certain behaviors, experiences in common.

I don’t think it is inevitable. I don’t think all people do it. And I think that anything we do that hurts others to the degree cheating does, requires a massive response of change.

I wish I could show you this video that visually demonstrates the nature of healing. But I will just say that most ws lead largely unconscious lives. We lack self awareness, emotional intelligence, and our thinking tends to live in the negative realm. Not everyone with the categories cheat but most of them will walk with some sort of addiction like you are talking about.

The degree of a on someone’s selfishness is a direct correlation to someone’s self worth/love.

People who don’t love themselves and fill their own cup basically look for others to fill their cup. They can present overly selfish or overly unselfish, but both operate in a transactional way in relationships. They create expectations that unmet is used to prove the other doesn’t love them.

In fact I would say a large portion of marriages/romantic relationships operate transactionally because we have been taught that. (How many of us long term married folks have been directed in some way that if the man helps in the house then he will get more sex?) We actually went through that choreplay era, and all it did was tell me that my husband was washing dishes to get sex that evening.

Reality is, the man lives in the house. I did his laundry, all the dishes, cooking, cleaning, grocery shopping, etc- would I have been more energetic if he did his part? Yes. But we set it up as "if you do x, then you will likely get y".

And all that came from the MC community.

I think one of our highest calls for purpose in life is to love in a non transactional way. I think we are often people who have taken that to the next level somehow. As a people pleaser I was always hustling for love. Love should not be defined on what you do for the other person but a cooperation of two people who make the connection the top priority. People who want to connect will consider and respect the other, they will honor themselves in that connection, intimacy becomes less about getting crazy and getting off, it becomes two people relishing in the connection they share.

So I do think it’s part of the human experience to get out of balance. It’s not okay to walk around hurting people, traumatizing them. As long as you are this person you can’t get to your higher purpose and that in itself brings pain, and it will keep you down in the mud. Same goes for sacrificing too much to stay in a relationship where you aren’t receiving the love and respect you deserve.

Selfishness and being flawed are part of the human condition.

Sufficient selfishness and depth of flaws to cheat varies from person to person. Even among cheaters, I do think the gentle yet slippery sloped into an affair can take hold on people that don't *intend* to cheat. Then you have those people that go out expressly looking to cheat. So it can depend on the person.

In a similar thread I posted:

Here is my "crystalized" understanding of what I think you are trying to say. Informed by my experiences and "Not Just Friends". The draw of the affair is fundamentally strong if it is available and palletable. We humans are weak and fallible creatures. We must exercise willpower to not do things we want to and discipline to do things we ought to do but don't want to do. When we run short on willpower we make knowingly bad decisions. We let them pile on and we rationalize. And if I didn't know what I know now about affairs, and the opportunity fell in my lap I most likely wouldn't face my ethics and win the internal struggle to stay out of it. I would probably give excuse after excuse to let my willpower fail. Simultaneously I would probably let go of discipline at home, or worse hold my duties against my family. "I ought to be allowed to do something just for me!"

Certainly I was not aware of how people move from friendship into an A. While it is still a decision to engage, by the time you have loosened up your mind and feelings, it's much closer to deciding to eat a free sample at Costco of chocolate than it is deciding to stab your partner in the back (despite that being the decision). The "fog" or self delusion is not an excuse in my mind at all. Playing fast and loose with the good feelings the proto-affair gives is how the actual A starts. It means we need to recognize and critically evaluate our decisions as we make them.

Does this interaction enrich my marriage? Would my wife like to see a video of this interaction? Maybe it's not as benign as it is at first blush. And recognizing that the WS choose those things and failed to enforce proper boundaries makes them able to see the pattern pre-emptively instead of after it is too late and the secret fire is already burning. If they do not provide the spark, if they engage in transference of vigilance, if they are deeply honest about their interactions with others, they are much less likely to have another A. Or if they do, it will be a much more blatant attack on the BS.

We are all flawed and we all make decisions that we know are less than the best for us. Maybe it's wrong to call an A a difference of degrees from choosing to eat shitty food, or choosing not to exercise, but it's fundamentally the same mechanism on a grander scale.

Absolutely yes. Unfortunately it has been with us since the dawn of man. In Exodus it was made clear it was a violation of God’s law, but in the Bible it is mentioned earlier in Genesis in the stories of Joseph and Lot. If there have been laws against it since prehistoric days, then obviously it was rampant in prehistoric days.

What does this mean? It happens and has been happening since males and females have been existing. None of this means it is right, but it is human to look at another and think about what it would be like… I suppose some would argue that is a biological need to continue the species. But acting on it is a whole other thing. It has been recognized as a crime against marriage since literally day one. Why? Because it is an assault on the psyche. Think about it for a moment. Why do we suffer when we find out? Because it shakes our belief in ourselves to the very core of our being. Multiply that across the world and think about the millions of people who suffer every day all the time. All walking around in a state of disbelief and pain. Think of the suicides, the horrible murders, the children who have their lives upended and it goes on and on and on.

We are by far the most complex species that have ever existed, we know so much, our achievements are profound. Yet we still have the same urges to reproduce as Australopithecus.

We can hate what people do, but we can’t claim surprise.

At the end of the day - Infidelity is a choice.

I think the question becomes what do you consider to be part of the human condition? In my mind, the human condition encompasses essentially the entirety of human existence for birth to death and all of the experiences that go along with it. So I suppose yes,

I don't think that's what you're asking though. I think what you're really asking, is this just human nature? Like is it a fundamental/natural part of our being - is it essentially an inborn habit or trait that we're all just fighting against. And to that I say no. Just because something is not uncommon and has occurred throughout history doesn't make it part of our nature. I think the way that humans have viewed relationships and marriage (and thus cheating) has evolved over time, but I think in a general way, the behaviour has always been considered objectionable/antisocial at least to some extent. Violence has also existed in most human societies too, but I don't think that necessarily makes violence part of human nature.