SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Um ... at a week-10 days out from d-day, you're making a gigantic mistake if you think you're even close to an optimal resolution.

My reco is to create/find an observer part of yourself and observe yourself and your W as the roller coaster ride goes on. Do not attempt to draw any conclusions. Gather data. Express the grief and anger you feel. Recognize the fear and shame, but it's probably best not to share it with your W. Go with your flow.

Make your healing your goal. Know that the D/R decision will best come from your healing. Let it grow organically; don't impose one or another on yourself.

The BSes who do best define and work for their own goals. The WS impacts the decisions, but your decisions need to be made by you.

IMO, a WS is not a good candidate for R unless they want R at least as much as the BS does. But at a week out, your WS is not a good judge of what's going on inside her. Maybe she's not a good candidate; maybe she is.

I wish she'd said how bad things were. I'm not taking responsibility for the affair but I'm willing to take responsibility for letting our marriage weaken.

A "weak" marriage, whatever that means, is not the cause of someone betraying, deceiving, and stabbing their spouse in the back.

It has nothing to do with your marriage at all.

It has nothing to do with you at all either.

NOTHING you did or did not do caused her to do this.

Ask yourself, do you really want to convince your very deceitful WS to reconcile?

Why?

What would reconciliation with someone like this look like or be like?

What happens with infidelity is that our paradigm shifts. The human we thought we loved didn't actually exist. Isn't real. Instead, the human we thought we loved is the kind of person who will decide to lie to us for the specific purpose of cheating with another man. Most of us would not love a person who would choose to do that.

R works by falling back in love. But not with the person who cheated. R works when the person who cheated figures out what was broken in her moral compass and fixes it. Makes herself into somebody new. Somebody different than who she was. Somebody who is worthy of loving.

This is great insight, Butforthegrace. Yet another thing I'm saving off to think about.

You won't be using that line because you will be doing the 180 and avoiding any conversation about

your relationship, feelings, etc.

You got me, Gutpunch! You're right...for now. There's a French phrase, L'esprit de l'escalier. Literally, staircase wit but it means that you come up with the perfect comeback too late. Eventually, we're either going to be in recovery and I can share some of the funny things from these conversations or we're going to be in divorce and one of the items in our settlement will be that she has to sit there and hear me rant.

Yes, Sisoon, I know that what I wanted yesterday isn't necessarily going to be what I want tomorrow. I'm trying to "let go of the outcome" and leave myself with just the knowledge that my daughter's mental health is likely to be better if we aren't divorced. Which is an argument for trying to reconcile but can't be the only reason why we reconcile.

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Nothing worth reporting today. We had to speak some today because my daughter needs new furniture for her room but very little of it was just my WW and I. And when it was the only topic was the furniture. I just got my pool replastered the day before yesterday (amazing timing right?) so twice a day I'm out there brushing the new plaster which is a surprisingly good workout.

My stress is definitely high, though. I tried to eat an apple turnover this morning and it was my stomach that did the turning over instead. I set it on a napkin on the counter to try later but my daughter, love her to death, came out a minute later and said happily, "mine now!" What a monster.

I'm mildly nervous about tonight because my daughter might go spend the night at a friend's house tonight which would leave my home alone with the WW. I would, of course, very much like for her to initiate a conversation about R but even if she did I think it's still too soon for her given some of the things she's said in the past couple days.

If she does, do I

A) go slow and if she starts getting defensive ask that we continue the conversation another time?

or

B) gently suggest that I'm not sure she's as ready as she thinks and should read the first four chapters of Healing from Infidelity instead? Or re-read them if she's done more with that than I think.

If she starts talking about anything other than the child,or how she wants to attempt reconciliation, politely excuse yourself and leave the room. Actually, if the child is gone,you should be busy in another room anyway,avoiding her.

But if she starts talking about wanting to R,simply ask her what she plans on doing to become a safe partner, and how she intends to try to heal the damage she has caused. Then hear her out,without speaking. When she is done, tell her either she needs to do more,and its up to her to find out what that is. She managed to have an affair without your guidance, she can google how to heal from infidelity without you walking her through it. Or tell her you will consider it,and ask her to give you some space,then disengage.

[This message edited by HellFire at 9:54 PM, Friday, April 21st]

Keptmyword, thanks for steering me away from those kinds of thoughts. Because of advice like yours, I'm doing a better job of separating the issues in our marriage from the affair. It's a justification (and a shitty, selfish one) for my WW, not a reason.

On to your questions, which were probably rhetorical but I get my thoughts down much better when I write them.

Ask yourself, do you really want to convince your very deceitful WS to reconcile?

Today? Yes.

Why?

Because my daughter's mental health would benefit from us getting our marital shit together rather than divorcing. Because my daughter's future relationships will be shaped by her parent's. Because despite everything I still love my wife. Today.

What would reconciliation with someone like this look like or be like?

Well, I laid out some pretty simple conditions and boundaries for her when she asked a few days back. No contact, obviously. Not going to the casino that her AP still frequents unless I'm with her. Location history active on her phone and electronic transparency. And then genuine remorse rather than just regret.

Then I have a few questions for her. I had a lot at first. But many of them I've crossed out as time went on because, with my mind a little more settled, they seemed petty, uninteresting, or self-flagellating. A couple seemed designed to be hurtful to my WW rather than gather me any useful information.

After that, we have marriage things to work on. And I want to work on those even if we will undoubtedly have to go backwards and revisit some of the earlier topics because my boundaries were too optimistically loose or I have more questions.

That's what I think anyway. I'm at a point where I can at least say without hyperventilating that I don't really know what the near future looks like.

I'm mildly nervous about tonight because my daughter might go spend the night at a friend's house tonight which would leave my home alone with the WW.

Time to make some plans. Go do something, do not say anything to WW, just go.

Go watch Hockey or Basketball playoffs at a sports bar. Go to a park and sit by the lake. Just get away from her tonight and do something you would enjoy.

She will ask and your only answer is "I have plans".

[This message edited by Tanner at 10:01 PM, Friday, April 21st]

Hello BTB,

I've been following your story so far. Dealing with infidelity is hard, and I can empathize with you. Everyone here has been through this.

Why don't you go out tonight by yourself if your daughter spends the night at a friend's house. Grab dinner. Catch a movie. When you get home, go to bed. Don't engage with her for this one evening. Give yourself some space from this.

Just tell your wife you are going out, and leave.

You don't want to be sitting there waiting to see what will happen or if she is going to say anything.

Clear your head and try to enjoy yourself, as hard as this is right now.

Just know that you will get through this, eventually.

Hi Bob,

You have already communicated what you need from her. Ignore her and keep brushing the replastered pool! Make it shiny smooth :)

No point repeating or saying more. If she tries to communicate make sure it is only about any efforts she is making towards what you want from her . Don’t make any effort to bring up R related topics , she will not put in the work. She needs to initiate it. Don’t be surprised if she does not bring it up soon. She needs to feel the heat before she works on putting out the fire.

Hope you found a good IC? My insurance had a list of providers that offered telehealth, easier to find appointments that way than in person. You can also look up BetterHelp.

You seem to be dealing with two kids at home ! Atleast one is adorable :)

Lots of good advice here. You seem to be taking good steps forward. Remember to try protein shakes if you can’t handle food. Good luck.

Good tips about tonight, unfortunately I can't leave because I'm working. I work in IT and we have a planned downtime I'm working on. Except I have to work in spurts doing validations and running scripts and then I have another hour or two of nothing while engineers do stuff. It's that hour or two of downtime that worries me. Or not really worries. It's somewhere between nerves and anticipation. Whatever, I'll be fine.

Fareast, that's a good tip about protein shakes. My stomach has been in knots this week. Mostly I eat nothing, drink a bunch of coffee, and eventually have dinner. No surprise that I've lost four or five pounds. So... you know...silver lining.

No contact, obviously. Not going to the casino that her AP still frequents unless I'm with her. Location history active on her phone and electronic transparency. And then genuine remorse rather than just regret.

Ok..these are the bare minimum you need from her,today. However, none of these things are the work she needs to do on herself, to become a safe partner. None of these require her to dig deep,and figure out what in her told her cheating was acceptable. None of these require introspection.

What consequences has she had? Your pain,anger, and disappointment are not consequences.

I understand you want to stay together for your child. Could partner of her problems be that she sees her mom not being respectful, or kind,to her dad? Kids aren't blind, or stupid. They tend to know more than we realize. She's living in a toxic environment. Infidelity is a form of abuse. So,unless your wife gets her shit together really fast, keeping your child in an unhealthy environment isn't good for her.

Your wife is still very much a Wayward. She still puts herself above everyone. Including your child. That she doesn't think your child's IC needs to know what's going on in the house, proves that. Her reasons are irrelevant.

Double post

[This message edited by HellFire at 1:51 AM, Saturday, April 22nd]

Does your username have anything to do with the children's show?

"Bob the Builder!

Can we fix it?

Bob the Builder!

Yes, we can!"

The song comes to mind.

Imagine your wife's affair was an earthquake, and your marriage is your house. You now have a crack in your foundation, and it's your wife, AND ONLY YOUR WIFE'S responsibility to fix the crack. You can fix up the rest of the house together eventually, but you need to start there, right?

You can research and buy building materials. You can go to the store and haul them back to your house. You can talk about one day redoing the kitchen and buying a new couch, too. But if she doesn't care about your foundation, and maybe has one foot out the door contemplating life in a new house, how quickly or how well do you think she's going to fix the foundation? What if she just throws some vinyl flooring on top and tells you it's done any time you bring up the crack? Are you going to accept that as your house being "fixed"?

Okay, so let's assume that your wife wants to fix the foundation, and it's still her responsibility, but she doesn't know how. What if she started watching This Old House and reading books on construction and researching contractors in your area?

But in one scenario, you're pushing her to fix it, and in the other, she's making the effort to get the project done. Which house would you rather live in? The one she just threw down some cheap flooring over to temporarily appease you while she's still searching for new houses on Trulia secretly? Or the one where she's making sure it gets fixed correctly so you can pick out that new couch together one day in the future?

[This message edited by ibonnie at 8:16 AM, Saturday, April 22nd]

If she isn’t begging on her knees and pleading thru tears and snot for forgiveness and another chance, then she doesn’t care at all…it’s not worth your emotional investment and attachment anymore.

Learn to share parenting, be a good dad, and take care of yourself above all.

If she isn’t begging on her knees and pleading thru tears and snot for forgiveness and another chance, then she doesn’t care at all…it’s not worth your emotional investment and attachment anymore.

I had a dog that would get out and run. I would chase that dog around until I was worn out. I would corner her and bring her home. I was so afraid of her getting lost or injured.

I asked a dog trainer one day and he said "never chase the dog!" If anything turn and run from the dog she will chase after you.

One day she got out the door and ran, I did not respond at all. I calmly walked out in the front yard not looking or speaking to her. I suddenly turned around and ran into the house, she chased after me and came in.

After that, I never responded when she ran out, she would sniff around the yard, but never ran off again. I was not afraid of losing her. I was willing for the dog to run away and not come back, I was done chasing. She was free to go. She became one of the best most loyal dogs I ever had.

I’m not comparing your situation to training a dog but it’s meant as an illustration that when I was done, I was DONE!!!! The rest was up to her.

Yep, ibonnie, I did take it from the kid's show. It was never one of my daughter's favorites but I was at least peripherally aware of it enough that I knew the "Can we fix it? Yes, we can!" refrain.

It was hopeful but not as explicitly so as something like "Si se pueda" or something like that. Because I'm not a kids cartoon and if Bob the Builder was in my situation he'd be doing demolition!

I've communicated my conditions. To continue the metaphor, I'm the general contractor for the project, and she's a subcontractor right now.

I've told my WW what safety gear we need for the project.If she's able to get the safety gear then she can start work on the parts I'm subbing to her. If she does the work well then I can start on work is building off her own. If she does the whole project really well then I would propose a merger of our businesses.

Alright, if I torture that metaphor anymore I'm going to be prosecuted at the Hague.

I think one of the hardest things about discovering infidelity is the hit to the ego. We want to be the one with the options (and in reality, we always have options, just maybe not ones we like). But here is our WS who has us on one hand and shiny AP on the other, and they certainly have more reason to feel like they're in the captain's chair than we do.

I remember very clearly thinking that my immediate task was to dispense of the AP and the affair and to get back into a position where choosing the marriage, or not, was MY decision. And so if that meant reassuring my confused WS that we could have a great marriage again, so be it. The psychological need to get from a position of instability to one of security and safety is very strong. And if this is manipulative or using what we know of our WS's psychology in order to give ourselves as many as options as possible, well it doesn't feel very wrong after what our WS has done to us.

This is all very natural if, ultimately, ill-advised. It's really just a form of bargaining . . . ok, so our WS has thrown away the life we enjoyed but maybe we can create a life as close to it as possible. But ultimately approaching reconciliation from a position of cajoling/convincing/begging/reassuring is a mistake. It sets us up for a lop-sided and weak reconciliation later. Our best chance of rebuilding our marriage in a healthy way is to step back and let the WS lead.

And that's where the panic of losing reconciliation as an option sets in. We need to self-soothe through that panic. The ego may be driving us to strong-arm our WS back into compliance, but it's doing so blindly. We need to override that panicked, short-sighted instinct and look at things objectively. We need to recognize that we can't control the outcome or our WS.

It's natural to want to stay together when you have children, but again, that doesn't mean that cajoling/convincing is the right way to make that happen. It's certainly not helpful for children to see us accepting unhealthy relationships for their sake.

Limbo is really the most you can offer your WS right now . . . that for the sake of your child and history together, you won't make any final decisions about leaving yet. But living in limbo is hard. The urge to commit to one path or the other is strong. Because you can't know whether your WS is capable of reconciling yet, you can think a few steps ahead in terms of separating. Could you move into a guest room or basement for the time being? What would need to happen financially to maintain two households? You can focus on having those questions answered to ease the stress of being in limbo so that you're not tempted to commit to a false or weak reconciliation.

It's a marathon, not a sprint, which is hard for us planners and analyzers.

So sorry you had to join this group, but it is a great group.

From my experience -
You are still very early in this. For me it was roller coaster ride of emotions; sadness, anger, feelings of hopelessness, depression, and more, for months, and still hits sometimes years later. It may be too early to decide your path.
Reconciliation is VERY hard even when both are all in and committed, the wayward must be remorseful.
The recommend book, "How to Help Your Spouse Heal", is a great read. If your spouse doesn't want to do the steps you can't make them and reconciliation is doomed.
IC does help, keep making appointments.

I know your daughter's struggles make this complicated but there is some truth in "children would rather be from a broken home than live in a broken home". Children are pretty observant.

Best of luck, I hope you find a good solution.

Wow, swmnbc, that is very insightful. I think there is definitely some things there that really felt like me and there's probably more that describes me that I'm too close to see right now.

I'm in the process of clearing out a space for one of us to sleep in. Part of me hates the idea of it being me. She fucked up why do I have to sleep on the fucking airbed? But I have stuff in there already. It's where most of my clothes are usually, it's were my workout stuff is. And in the end, I just don't care enough to force the issue.

Trustedg, my copy arrived today. I'm going to read it this weekend and give it to my wife whether she reads it or not.

----

We had a serious conversation today, for perhaps the first time when both of us were reasonably well rested and our daughter was out of the house.

Some highlights my occasional editorial interjections in parentheses and italics (Yeah, I know spending time figuring out how I could pepper this with my antics is probably pretty weird):

The conversation started like any other attempt with her deflections and blaming me for everything that's wrong. I tried to gently steer the conversation back to where I wanted without success so I told her all of that stuff is something I really want to dig into...in the future. We're discussing the affair now or there isn't much point to discussing the rest. That worked. She hasn't read any bit of Healing From Infidelity yet which was disappointing. We talked about a few things and then I started in on my questions.

Have you spoken to him by any electronic means or in person or in any fashion communicated (messages passed via a mutual friend, letter, pigeons, or smoke signals) since April 15th.

On Thursday WW went to the casino where she had met AP originally, where they went frequently when they were together. She wasn't expecting to see him there because it was the middle of the day but he was there and approached her. She told him that she couldn't talk to him. He said she looked miserable and stressed and wondered why she would put herself through this. (Thanks, dick)

This was, obviously, unpleasant to hear. She knew it was a boundary even if she hadn't agreed to it yet. But it was also a good thing because she finally realized that she really couldn't go there anymore. She was even more miserable and stressed because she knew she had hurt me by going there at all, hurt her AP by pushing him away, and would keep hurting everyone involved every time.

She had a bit of a shame spiral here. Luckily chapter four of Healing From Infidelity had prepared me for both her feeling bad that she hurt AP (Personally, I hope he gets ass cancer) and her shame. When we were ready I moved on to what was a big one for me because I was basically certain that she'd lie and I knew how to respond to the lie and see if she'd crumble.

When was the last time you were at his house?

She said, "when did we go see that comedian? (first week of November) It was before then. (Liar!) I told you that I didn't have sex with you the whole time I was seeing him. (Then that, too, is a lie.)

I don't believe you. I'm virtually certain that you saw him the first weekend of December when I was out of town with my brother and I strongly suspect that you saw him in January. When I first confronted you, when everything was happening fast and you didn't have time to think about how to present this so you look least bad, the dates you gave me were June through January. I think those are the real dates.

She said "I don't think this is going to work."

For the first time I'm starting to agree with you.

That seemed to stop her in her tracks. Be willing to lose the M to save it, right Tanner?

She admitted to it and further admitted that she had gone to his house in February to see him just as a friend. (On the fence as to whether I really believe that but it seemed real. I also feel like whether it was 50 times or 51 doesn't matter if she keeps working the R.)

We talked some more, mostly about her pessimism and my optimism. Her pessimism is mostly coming feeling like this is going to be brutally hard and not believing that divorce is as hard on kids as I do (her belief stems from being a child of divorce and I'm amazed she can't see how much of how damaged she is stems from her relationship with her parents).

My optimism, I explained to her, is not actually optimism. It's a hope, absolutely, but it's also rational self-interest. Getting divorced will change my situation but it won't change me; I'll take my problems with me just as she will hers. Trying reconciliation now will give me the opportunity to not just learn tools but to practice using tools to evaluate the status of my relationships, to communicate better, to listen better, to solution better, to execute those solutions better. These things are going to make me a better partner for WW or for someone else.

I didn't know it at the time but that seemed to have really struck a chord with her. She called me on the commute to work and told me that she had put in a new patient form for new IC. Her current IC is apparently more about her ADHD diagnosis and that psychiatrist doesn't spend a lot of time with her on feelings and behaviors. I think that's a really positive move. I hope that this IC is marriage friendly but I'll be glad for our daughter's sake if she just gets healthy no matter what happens (Let go of the outcome!)

We also had a conversation about giving each other space that demonstrated reasonably good communication skills.

Ups and downs but at least we're moving in a direction instead of circling.

Trying reconciliation now will give me the opportunity to not just learn tools but to practice using tools to evaluate the status of my relationships, to communicate better, to listen better, to solution better, to execute those solutions better. These things are going to make me a better partner for WW or for someone else.

I didn't know it at the time but that seemed to have really struck a chord with her.

That's so familiar to me, I had to smile when I read it.

I do remember a similar conversation. My fWH was still waffling on R. You know, early on so many WS's are neck deep in this fantasy where they're in the catbird seat dramatically deciding between two lovers. It's very heady stuff for the ego, I expect. My fWS and I were sitting in a parking lot talking and he was trying to ascertain whether or not he had any shot in the future of being invited back to my bed. I remember looking him right in the eye and telling him plainly that I very much did intend to have an emotionally and sexually intimate relationship again... and if it wasn't with him it would be with someone else.

It's that moment when the penny drops and you can SEE the dawning realization in someone's eyes that all is NOT what they believed it was. In his mind, I'd spend the rest of my life alone and bitter while he moved on, sad and pitying on my account of course, but on to better things nonetheless, blah, blah, blah. It never occurred to him after more than thirty years of being his that I could ever be someone else's.

There's quite a bit of rationalizing and justifying that goes on in the mind of a WS, Bob. It's mental gymnastics any Olympian could be proud of in most cases. The WS creates "a story" that they invest in. The more that story unravels, the more likely they are to see the truth about what they've done. Reality meets fantasy. Not every WS will wake up, but some do.