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I had an A-Ha moment today and wanted to share to see if it's a plausible thought. This might have already been discussed, but I don't specifically remember.

I have an IC appointment at the end of the month and was wondering if I should write down some questions or things I wanted to discuss. One of them was my WH's selfishness and how he has been working on it, also, the fact that the more I heal, the more it seems that our values are not the same at all.

The A-ha moment came while thinking about his selfishness. I realized that him working on it, trying to become a better partner/father, was also selfish. Because if he stayed the same (thinking only of himself, doing only what he wanted, getting his way all the time etc.) it is now a dealbreaker for me and he knows it. And I'm still not convinced that he wants to save the M because he "loves" me. I think it has a lot to do with his quality of life. It's 1000% better with me in it. And, the only relationship he has with his kids is through me, so that would likely be gone too. He just doesn't want to be alone.

Not sure this is necessarily a "bad" thing? IDK. What do you guys think? I know initially selfishness in wanting to protect their way of life is probably a given, but if that's the case, how long can they keep it up?

I'd love some discussion about this.

Because if he stayed the same (thinking only of himself, doing only what he wanted, getting his way all the time etc.) it is now a dealbreaker for me and he knows it. And I'm still not convinced that he wants to save the M because he "loves" me. I think it has a lot to do with his quality of life.

If working on himself means he gets to have a better life with you and if loving you means he has to work on himself, the commonality is that he has to work on himself.

All I can tell you is that it took a really long time for me not to not feel wobbly about my WH's motives. In a long marriage, we're a package deal. It would be so much easier if we could separate out the emotional issues from the practical ones, but it's just not that simple. At a certain point though, I really did become okay with that. Not at first. At first, it sucked because I had all kinds of doubts. Can't say that time settles it all. Some of it is work. But time, I've found is a necessary component. I think it's because we need to see the WS build a new routine and we also need to see what happens when that routine has become old hat. Are their changes still holding? Is the new routine an acceptable dynamic? Are the low points high enough? Are the high points often enough? That sort of thing.

My H is very selfish. Youngest child, very enabled by older siblings. A helicopter mom who raised her girls to be competent and her boys to be babied. His family had a lot of money, so he just has never known struggle, doesn't even really understand it. (Well, he does now, but we're middle aged.) I never saw these qualities in this way until several years into our M, babies and busy lives and two full-time jobs.

My H cannot undo who he is. This is the way he was raised. He knew no other way. I loved him and spoiled him in the early years. I'm very CoD, so we were a perfect yin/yang. I'm a do-er, and he loves having things done for him. This is how things went so off the rails in our M.

When we began to work on our M, the selfishness (which enabled his sexual taking and acting out and entitlement) HAD TO go. He has had years of IC to continually work on it. Is he doing the work for selfish reasons? Yes. No doubt. Do I directly benefit? Am I the prize he wants to keep? Absolutely. I cannot ask or expect that he change who he is, just the way that he lives and operates. That's all he can do. I'll be honest--I think many, many WS were raised to be takers. It's who they are, so you are not alone, Fournlau.

The barometer is YOU, how you feel about the way you are treated. You will forever need to hold him accountable and push back on his selfishness. This is a change in the marital dynamic and needs to be a part of the new M. I played a role in allowing my H's selfish attitude, but not anymore. We are equals all the way. Last week he did all the dishes every single day. Before that, I would have felt guilty. I leave for work earlier, get home later, and do more around the house, so why? But I did. Now I let him do more, a lot more, and I say nothing except Thank You.

Do you feel you are being treated well? Your job is to insist on it. If it ever changes, if you do not think he is walking the walk, then you know you are in danger and his change isn't real. But many, many selfish types are only motivated by loss or consequences, not morals or reciprocity or whatever. I know so many people like this. They are not all cheaters, but many are just takers. If you are offering, then they take. And they do not measure the even nature of the R. Boundaries, boundaries, boundaries is all they understand.

Do we ever really know someone else's true motives? Judge him by his actions, now and forever. Actions always show what someone values.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 1:45 AM, Sunday, March 19th]

But time, I've found is a necessary component. I think it's because we need to see the WS build a new routine and we also need to see what happens when that routine has become old hat. Are their changes still holding? Is the new routine an acceptable dynamic? Are the low points high enough? Are the high points often enough? That sort of thing.

Definitely not here yet. That's the rub though isn't it? It takes time to see if the changes made are permanent, and what happens if they're not? More wasted years, yet you never know until time passes. And how much time is the right amount of time? What if he's good at faking it for 5/10/15 years and it all collapses? How do you know if it's real or just him "faking it"? Unfortunately for me, I don't quite believe him when he says he loves me, has always loved me, even while in the A (I did get the ILYBNILWY bullshit answer after the A). He has mentioned that I don't react well when he says it, mostly I just shrug, cause honestly, so what? You love me, woo hoo, I'm so lucky! It just doesn't mean anything now. And like I said, I do feel that he just doesn't want to lose the life he has because he likes what I do for him (everything except make money), and not because he loves me. That might just be something I have to work through, but it's how I feel. I don't really feel loved.

OwningItNow, I did the same thing. I allowed the selfishness. I never pushed back on it and the few times I did he made me feel like shit about it. It was just easier to let him do what he wanted. To buy the furniture he wanted, the car he wanted, go out and do the activities he wanted etc. (vacations were good and bad, he always wanted to be on the go, go, go sightseeing etc. while I wanted to just RELAX! We did it the way he wanted to. I would always ask for a night at a hotel alone for my birthday just so I could do whatever I wanted without anyone "needing" me. Never happened, ironically, he once said it was because he was afraid of what I would be doing in the room and with who! )

Obviously things are different now and I always push back on his selfishness, though he still gets defensive at times. Like I said above, I don't really feel loved, at least not in the way I want to be. I told him that I wanted him to "woo" me and his response was that he didn't want to push "sex" . What does he do? He buys me flowers and sometimes (maybe once a month) he puts away the dishes. And apparently that is supposed to be good enough. He doesn't ask how I am doing (which I've asked him to do) he never brings up any issues, I always have to and then he says "I was thinking about that too but didn't know what to say" . So yeah, it's all on me. If I were to never mention the A again or "make" him go to therapy, he'd be all too happy. Because that must mean everything is "fine" and why should he "rock the boat"? It just seems that he is doing the bare minimum and sometimes pushes back on even that.

[This message edited by Squish at 3:17 AM, Sunday, March 19th]

I wouldn't R if it didn't benefit me.

I'm the BS, so maybe that matters, maybe not.

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 6:22 AM, Sunday, March 19th]

Just a quick thought: My WH initially went to IC for me - to appease me - to "work on himself" for me. It was rubbish as he felt like he was jumping through hoops - that he needed to update me and be making "progress" in order for us to move forward. And I could feel it. It was like my dog when he is begging for something on my plate - he crouches down or moved into the other room and lies there but he is always watching or at least listening to me. The minute I give any indication that I may give him something he can't help himself - he starts to get up. He is trained to do what I want - not what he wants to make things harmonious (he's a dog - so I don't expect him to do any better than that).

When I left and my WH started going to IC for himself - the change was palpable. One - I didn't see him everyday. There were no updates to give. We didn't really talk about his IC and what progress he felt he was making for well over a year. But I could tell even before we talked about it that he was making changes - for him. He was digging into his family relationships and how he deals with (or avoids) conflict. Now 3 years out, he is still doing it for himself - and it's clearer still. He is more thoughtful. More AWARE of his tendencies. Much more grateful. Just a different (and happier) person.

So I would say therapy MUST be done for the one doing it. MC is a joint venture. IC is you and you alone.