SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I really love this thread, because it captures really closely where I am with my WH. He is coming up with some interesting / surprising insights about himself (for example, really getting in to how he processed his mother's affair when he was a teen and took her side in it for years until I asked him why he couldn't extend any grace to his father; it really shocked him and he's started talking about it differently). The act of figuring out and being able to articulate aspects of his behavior has manifested both in defensiveness (sometimes) and reaching out to me (most of the time), and I am in a place where I'm trying to evaluate which track is the ultimate path he'll take. Now he sees some aspects of himself, will it help him/us grow or will it cause him to build an even stronger narrative of self-justification?
I want to extend grace, because I see the potential in such realizations, but I'm very very wary, because it could also be him playing on my love and empathy, so I'm still just watching, trying to support when it seems like the most needful thing, but also trying to ground these insights in our reality. It feels like the right path for me, even if I'm opening myself up to further hurt and taking on the burden of helping my WH.

And I have to take care of her. I’m soothing her and putting my needs on the back burner.

I have always thought that the WS is in worse shape than the BS in the vast majority of cases, and that implies the BS will have to help the WS if they R.

But we have to put our own oxygen masks on first. R, IMO, requires giving a LOT to the WS, but one can't give enough help to the WS unless one has a lot to give without getting depleted. That means the BS needs to do a good deal of healing. That means, I think, that the BS needs to learn to love and validate themself; if the BS doesn't do that work, the BS will get depleted too long before the job is done.

My wife has a long list of ex boyfriends, dated a lot in high school into college until we met… So I was going to say that she knows she is desirable with all that attention.

Not necessarily. I mean, you would think so, but not necessarily.

Insecurity is like a bottomless pit of despair you can futilely try and fill with novel validation.

If it’s not a form of insecurity, but more of a form of chronic depression from FOO issues or past traumas, the same applies. Like an addict, they use unhealthy forms of temporary analgesia or escape (ie drinking, drugs, gambling, binge shopping, SEX, STRs OR LIMERENT ROMANCE)

The limerence phase of new encounters gives them a potent, but brief, temporary rush that later recedes and back into their hole they go. So, you’ll see a pattern or history of frequent short term relationships, sometimes with overlap or very little break between relationships (Monkey branching). Sometimes the relationships can be abusive which compounds preexisting trauma and insecurities.

Sometimes they know they are attractive, but feel they are not valued for anything else other than sex. Sex becomes transactional. I’ve seen this a lot in sexual assault trauma victims.

There are so many variations of contributing factors that go into infidelity, or addiction. That’s where a good therapist comes in.

There are some problems that are just too big to fix in the remains of a lifetime. Sometimes you have to settle for less than expected. Sometimes you have to cut your losses and divorce. These are agonizing decisions that don’t become clear-if they ever become clear, until you’ve been in the R trenches for a while.

I agree, your WW, many WSs, aren’t going to, or aren’t capable of, having some epiphany and just suddenly pick themselves up by their bootstraps, become The Model Wayward and just start kicking ass in the remorse, caregiver and reconciliation department especially, after such a disastrous and mutually and self-destructive failing.

The Model Ex-Waywards we have here on SI, paying it forward, came to their station after a long arduous journey, some did it alone, self motivated, and some with the help, support and patience of their BSs, a journey of healing taken together. But why-how? Did they give their BSs some sort of sign, a glimmer of hope? Did they show, early on, a glimmer of potential or, did they just get lucky to have a BS who had some form of codependence, or perhaps for some reason the BS decided to ride it out until the R gained traction until it took on a self-perpetuating momentum.

My R did not. It just went into a steady rate of decline.

My advice is to stay on your present course. Do exactly as you so eloquently described. Guide her gently, delicately. Don’t lead her by the nose, but give her the tools, the feedback she needs to succeed. Don’t just throw her in the deep end and watch her flail while ridiculing her. Continue to be a traumatized BS with all the triggers, bouts of depression, etc, etc, but make sure she understands that this is normal, to be expected, and not necessarily permanent especially, if she is lovingly patient and progressively remorseful. Your trauma should be a validating sign that you care, deeply care, always cared.

Work together as a team. If you’re seeing progress, stay the course. If not, don’t languish too long in a perpetual limbo state smoking that Hopium Pipe. Cut your losses and get the hell out of there.

[This message edited by RealityBlows at 4:51 PM, Friday, March 10th]

My wife has a long list of ex boyfriends, dated a lot in high school into college until we met. Me not so much, really just one notable girlfriend. So I was going to say that she knows she is desirable with all that attention. But then as I was going to write that I realized that it is just as likely that she used that exterior validation to sooth herself.

You got it. Back to my leaky soccer ball analogy, any "pump up" she received from the past boyfriends is long gone. Until she actually believes it herself, any external validation she receives is just going to be a bandaid on a bullethole.

I want to extend grace to her. Not a blanket pardon akin to rugsweeping, but a willingness to match her step for step in her efforts. Not blindly trusting, but not intentionally pruning new growth that is happening organically. I’ve heard the phrase around here "she figured out how to break it on her own, that means she can figure out how to fix it". But taking down a building only takes a stick of dynamite and a lighter. Rebuilding is so much more difficult. A gambler can loose every penny and more, that does not imply he can get it back by himself.

This sounds like a pretty healthy view of what reconciliation looks like, Ink. (Proud of you!) A lot of Waywards become waywards because they don’t have the tools (including the motivation or insight) to do it on their own. I don’ see any problem with being a teammate cheering her on in her growth. I think the trouble or concern comes from the fact that in their eagerness for R, a lot of BS try to take on the role of coach, oftentimes with a less-than-enthusiastic participant. You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make them drink, just like you can tell someone something 50 times but the may not really "hear" it until they come to that realization themselves, you know? I agree with your tightrope analogy – stay wary of those ditches.

It’s exhausting to be partnered with someone who is perpetually needy. No amount of effort seems to lift them up and scraps come back to you.

Damn. This line touched me. I understood it viscerally. I transported to the past and felt immediately worn out. Good stuff.

I think the ditches I can get stranded in are rugsweeping on one side and unforgiving judgment on the other. And she still has to play her part.

I think (hope) avoiding the ditches means focusing on the path. To me, that means personal growth and happiness. Not in some self centered it's all about meeeee way but believing that I deserve peace and joy, love and comfort and whomever is in my life, flawed or not, broken or whole, needs to honor that or at least, not hinder it.

I guess that's a more flowery way of having boundaries and expectations. And if a spouse can't honor those things or work very hard and measurably toward those things, love (for myself and any partner) would dictate I let them go. That's neither rugsweeping nor unforgiving. It's moving forward on the path.

[This message edited by TheEnd at 1:48 AM, Saturday, March 11th]

I have always thought that the WS is in worse shape than the BS in the vast majority of cases, and that implies the BS will have to help the WS if they R.

But we have to put our own oxygen masks on first. R, IMO, requires giving a LOT to the WS, but one can't give enough help to the WS unless one has a lot to give without getting depleted. That means the BS needs to do a good deal of healing. That means, I think, that the BS needs to learn to love and validate themself; if the BS doesn't do that work, the BS will get depleted too long before the job is done.

I was genuinely surprised to read this, I’m not sure I’ve really ever seen a statement like this on these forums. Even after pages and pages of my bleeding heart wayward apologetics. It’s been rolling around in my mind. You’ve had a lot to say to me about personal healing in my time here, and I see you telling others a consistent message. This feels like a gracious nuance.
It’s also an interesting thought that the WS is in worse shape than the BS post D-Day. It’s pretty apples and oranges, but I could be convinced.

The Model Ex-Waywards we have here on SI, paying it forward, came to their station after a long arduous journey, some did it alone, self motivated, and some with the help, support and patience of their BSs, a journey of healing taken together. But why-how? Did they give their BSs some sort of sign, a glimmer of hope? Did they show, early on, a glimmer of potential or, did they just get lucky to have a BS who had some form of codependence, or perhaps for some reason the BS decided to ride it out until the R gained traction until it took on a self-perpetuating momentum.

This is great question. I’ve mentioned that my alcoholic father was unresponsive both to tough love and rugsweeping acceptance, I don’t think either is a silver bullet. So if any of our fW friends want to weigh in here, it would be awesome.

Work together as a team. If you’re seeing progress, stay the course. If not, don’t languish too long in a perpetual limbo state smoking that Hopium Pipe. Cut your losses and get the hell out of there.

10-4, friend.

I guess that's a more flowery way of having boundaries and expectations. And if a spouse can't honor those things or work very hard and measurably toward those things, love (for myself and any partner) would dictate I let them go. That's neither rugsweeping nor unforgiving. It's moving forward on the path.

The hardest possible outcome here would be her half-assing it and me having to pull the plug because of it. That would be excruciatingly hard for me. If she fell off the wagon I could leave with a clear head. And if we can successfully reconcile and be better than we ever have been, that would be amazing. But for her to take a path that is neither of those will force me to decide what is good enough, and I might have to leave if it’s not enough, but that would probably be the ooiest, gooiest part of the shit sandwich, forcing me to make a black or white decision of the highest stakes for my happiness, my kids happiness, even her happiness. I hope I don’t get put in that position, but I do need to be prepared for it.

It would be useful for her to consider if she has a board of inner critics, and therefore whose voices she has internalised in this way. It is a mechanism she has subconsciously constructed to keep herself in line but which has become out of control. She might find Kristin Neff’s work on self compassion useful to help her fire her inner critic, turn it into friend or tame it. It might also be useful with regard to her need for validation about her attractiveness to consider how much of the ‘male gaze’ she has internalised as well as advertising and the beauty industry’s profit-making and cynical exploitation of our insecurities, women’s in particular, to never feel good enough with regard to our appearance,