SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

So my WH, long, long story but the gist is in my signature, after a forced disclosure told me he has been lying to me about an A from 16 years ago that he got caught in, assured me was over and unbeknownst to me, tricked me and carried it on AT work for 4.5 years during our engagement, and the first 3 years of our marriage. During our first pregnancy, our wedding everything. He says he never felt any real remorse or guilt because his justifications covered any negative feelings.

He would look into my eyes and see me crying and telling him how scared I was that he might be back with her and rubbing my pregnant belly assuring me he wasn't even *thinking* about her, but he was at work hugging, kissing, fondling and writing love letters on a weekly basis. He has also spent the last 16 years masturbating to porn that he chose to look just like her..and she looks the exact opposite of me. We are of opposite skin colors even.

Anyway, I asked hundreds of times over 16 years and each time I was met with "nothing happened" and the same story he told in 2006, it was an unsuccessful ONS. We now have found out he is high on the spectrum for Covert Narcissism, and a sex/love, and porn addict.

His therapist today "prescribed" him meditation, exercise 3 days a week and daily CBT writing consisting of what amounts to me as brainwashing: "I will not be hurt by telling the truth" "No look, fantasy or other woman is worth losing my wife" that type of thing. Imagine a school child writing lines as punishment....like that.

Please give me your insight on this. I think he needs a new therapist for his NPD because this sounds like crap. He's been seeing him since March 2022 and there has been very slow and very little progress.

My impression from your post is that your H is not the monogamous marrying kind of guy.

He’s not all in on the marriage.

It doesn’t matter what his "official" diagnosis is. As you stated progress has been slow. Until it trickles into no progress at all.

Cheaters who want to R move mountains to prove to their betrayed spouse/partner that they are invested in the marriage/relationship. I don’t think you’ve seen evidence that your Cheater’s top priority is making amends or trying to help you heal from the trauma that has come your way due to the affair.

Others will weigh in here in their experience with sex addicts and serial cheaters. Very very challenging living with people who are not inclined to be monogamous (whatever the reason).

I hope you have your own counselor to support you. It may be a good invest e t if your time and money as it will help you make some tough decisions.

All the writing in the world won't do any good if the person stays in a selfish mindset. Narcissist? If that's the truth then they say anything do anything they want. No empathy. No remorse. Anyone is a useful item to be used in their life. They will watch you cry, tell you lies then leave the room to plot their next meetup. You can't reason with someone who always thinks they're right.

This writing is wasted money. You can assign it for free if you like.

OK so he writes out the stuff then what.......do you see any changes in behavior? If his words don't mean anything to him then what good is the writing? What if he owed you 50.00 for every lie he ever told? That might be getting some changes.

He may need a different kind of CBT.

What would you consider correct "treatment"?

Sadly, that's a post that would probably get me banned.

Sam Vaknin talks about Cold Therapy on his YT page. No idea if it works ~ not sure he is either. Otherwise run for the hills no matter what it takes.
I was married to I suspect a CN, three kids. He was and still is absolutely batshit crazy but looked and sounded mostly like a normal person. Now that I've had time to reflect on 20 plus years together I have no idea what I was thinking. When they lose control they can become psychotic (although I wonder if that's a bullshit act aswell).

Dr George Simon has some good videos on dealing with character disturbed individuals. I dont know if it is possible to stay with them.

If he has a true NPD diagnosis then you need to plan on a life without him in it. In my extended family a woman had it although not diagnosed but all the relatives and in-laws knew something was off. She wrecked her children. Please understand that there is no cure. Can you change the color of your eyes? Can you change what your hands look like? A personality disorder is just as permanent. There is no medication that can change it. There might be some to lessen anxiety but that is about it. This is your life.

A caveat, there might be some new treatment out there but I doubt it.

Lastly, your emotional heath rest squarely on your mental heath and living with a master manipulator means you will never "win" because they have been experts in this all their lives.

Dr. Durvasula, is a psychologist whose expertise is in PDs. YouTube has many of her discussions about NPD.

[This message edited by Cooley2here at 2:16 PM, Wednesday, November 2nd]

I think the writing assignment is a good one. Often people get stuck on ideas because they have told themselves for years that their way of thinking is the right way. We can change our thinking by doing exercises like the one your WH is doing but believing also needs to be involved. Just writing it won't change anything but reading and writing and absorbing it will.

Exercise is also a mood booster and can help with anxiety. I exercise to help clear my head and it helps keep be grounded.

Was he officially diagnosed with NPD? What would you like to be done in therapy or what would you consider a good treatment plan?

I am sorry you have to go through this, wish there were easy answers.

The1stWife - I've been thinking a lot about this lately, that, I'm not even sure I know what kind of cheater I have and if this is indicative of a serial cheater. I was going to make a post asking for insight but don't even know what forum would be appropriate for asking such a question.

I was the only person he had been with prior to engagement, I was concerned that he would want to be with someone else and asked him about that the moment of proposal. He insisted no, he didn't want do need that. Truth is, he did, but didn't want to tell me. He ended up cheating with her to have another experience before marriage and it uncovered a shitstorm of issues that no one knew he had.

Fantasy - "A real man has more than just one woman. So I should too and I'm going to just grab any girl off the street and be in control of her, she'll do whatever I want, when I say. And the sex will be amazing! I'm gonna blow her mind and she'll be begging for me!"

The reality - he had no confidence or self-esteem so he never could muster up the courage to just ask someone. He instead chose to manipulate the AP by love-bombing to get her to like him before he was even comfortable trying for sex, plus he had insecurities about his size and believed that getting her to like him first, would soften the blow of potential disappointment in his size and performance. Only thing is, he ended up "falling in love" when she began to reject him.

So when they did finally have sex - after 2 failed attempts because he was so anxious he couldn't get it up - she ridiculed him because he had trouble maintaining the erection, he's not as large as she was used to and it was quick. She lost interest and didn't want to have sex with him anymore after day one but gave in 2 more times until she finally decided it wasn't worth it to her. He says he kept trying even after it never worked right because he was trying to prove to himself, that nothing was wrong with him. His fear of inadequacy/inferiority kicked in and he felt he had to redeem himself.

Obsessive traits - called her 92 times in a few weeks, and was constantly trying to get her attention which she rarely gave, because remember, she was no longer interested and it was never truly about him anyway. Her boyfriend kept cheating on her with girls from my race and she wanted to get validation that nothing was wrong with her...she actually made comments about girls from my race that indicated her mindset and intentions but WH says he never picked up on the meaning behind any of it and he feels SUPER stupid and embarrassed for that now.

Desperate need for attention and validation - "I mentioned before that I like hair up, so if she wears her hair up, she likes me". "That woman commented on my eyes... That woman looked at me twice yeah, they want me."

Impulsive behavior - "This girl just flirted, maybe I can have sex with her!" He did try in 2008 right before our baby was born and even though she was enjoying flirting with him, she turned him down because he was married.

"Oh my goodness, it's an overnight shift, I'm at work and I was never expecting you to be at work, but we're here, so you wanna have sex in this bathroom!?" She said no though and that was what made him realize sex wasn't going to happen anymore because he wasn't willing to have sex outside of work because his paranoia kicked in full speed that anything outside of work, he was destined to be caught and he didn't want to risk that so it turned into little quick pecks, hugs and quick feels, fantasy notes at work full of lies, to which she rarely responded. It was all in his mind that she liked him.

Compulsive behavior - "Okay I'm not in control of her because she doesn't want to have sex with me anymore, so what do I have control of? And where won't I be rejected? PORN! So I can create my fantasy affair with her in porn and I'm winning. Only now, I can't stop winning and this thing is actually winning over me..and it has been 16 years! Damn it's been 16 years?!?!"

Mommy Issues - The OW looks just like his mom did when he was a child and mom was neglectful, hot/cold, and rejecting towards him, just like the OW. He clung onto her tighter, desperate for her love and attention when he felt she was moving away from him. His feelings of fear, anxiety, and desperation (which he identified as "love") intensified. He then began to manipulate for survival because he believed that if he loved her more she wouldn't reject him. Only she still did, just like mom did.

He says after the A with her ended, he looked back and realized how stupid and pointless it was and never wanted to do it again and never wanted any other woman. He felt he had experienced someone else, and none of it was worth it so he didn't want to have any OW. He said he got the appropriate "high" feelings from being known as a devoted husband and father. But porn had always been a part of his life since he was 9/10 years old and he didn't realize it was a problem, he told himself all men do it and hide it.

So never mind the fact that he had been watching people that looked like her to "get the anxiety, arousal, sneaking feelings of the A" he just kept porn because it had always been there. And he didn't realize that he may have replaced an actual A, with a "porn A" since he was still chasing and getting similar feelings and it looked like her.

He truly believed he was faithful and committed after the A ended in 2010 because to him, porn wasn't cheating, even though I told him it hurt me ad I didn't want him doing it. He agreed, yet didn't see or admit it was an addiction so he never did stop. He couldn't stop unless it blew up and the addiction was uncovered.

He now sees that he had been "white-knuckling" it for a decade and what was once a daily or weekly pleasurable "habit" for a decade or so, turned into an addiction, (to her?) in porn, that he didn't necessarily want but couldn't stop. He says he wanted and tried to stop viewing porn as a whole but couldn't stop it completely, and he didn't want to keep watching her, so he moved into watching cartoon porn with the justification that it wasn't real people, so it wasn't as bad.

So LONG story short. Now that all this has been uncovered, here is the work he has been doing:

1. realized, admitted, and understand all his thoughts, behaviors etc are serious problems and that he is a very broken person - MAJOR since nothing has ever been his fault, he was perfect.

2. Been doing introspection which breaks him down to see all the disgusting parts of himself that he tried to hide from himself and others and used porn to numb out from.

3. Confessed to everyone what he did - HUGE since his squeaky clean image and nice guy persona were his lifeblood. Actually being a committed husband, father, and honest man with integrity, etc are now more important than being known for those things.

4. SA/LA calls every day, sometimes multiple times a day, and has a sponsor. He is on step 4.

5. Gotten into and stayed in therapy - HUGE again because remember, he was perfect so whenever I asked for therapy throughout the marriage, the first time he went twice and then stopped, and then eventually he would just tell me "no."

6. Has 2 therapists and sees one of them twice a week and the other once a week so 2-3 times a week he's in therapy.

7. Completed two Affair Recovery programs, read and listened to several books, podcasts etc.

8. Ended defensiveness and working on identifying DENIAL (Don't, Even No, I, Am, Lying)

9. Taken on the work of vigilance (proactivity, planning for triggers, etc) so I don't have to.

10. Made a list of all the people who knew of his infidelity to contact them and confess his wrongs and try to restore my and our marriage's honor. BIG because he is willing to humble himself and make himself vulnerable by admitting his wrongs and defects of character and crushing his false reputation which he says was where he found his worth and identity.

11. Been sober from porn and masturbation for almost one year, the longest he's ever gone without it since he was 9/10 years old.

12. Complete transparency including the ending of all social media except for our business page, filters installed on his phone, etc.

Please tell me, do you think this is a sincere effort? Is he doing enough? Would this work satisfy you? I wonder if progress was slow because he still TT'd for 4 months, then was in deep DENIAL for another 4 months. Since August is when I've started to actually see progress. I think maybe it's been slow because there were still barriers to progress.

Also, what kind of cheater does this sound like? The lies make me want to run because how can I ever trust again? But I also see he's been terribly broken since I met him and he is doing some work, which he was NEVER willing to do before.

If I should post this elsewhere, please let me know. Thank you!!

Edited to correct various typos and include other pertinent info.

[This message edited by IndigoSkye at 5:19 PM, Wednesday, November 2nd]

My XWH is a diagnosed covert narc. Well, back in the day it was narcissistic personality disorder with passive-aggressive tendencies. Unfortunately, personality disorders aren't treatable because that's who they are. What can help is to do some exercises to try to bring some self-awareness. NPDs generally think there's nothing wrong with them and it's everybody else who is wrong. Usually, they don't stay in treatment long enough to get the diagnosis.

Dr. Ramani has some YouTube videos on narcs that you will probably find helpful. If you can, try to do the vocabulary series first because it provides a lot of information on the words she discusses in other videos. There are differences between a grandiose & covert, so watch for those.

NPDs don't see others as people with feelings, but as objects to be manipulated. It's mind-boggling. The porn use? It's a selfish act where they can get the sexual release without having to maintain a relationship with you. Unfortunately, it can cause issues like porn-induced ED and escalation to worse types of porn.

He does need to train his brain and the writing exercises may help do that.

My ws wouldn't stop with porn either. It put distance between us. Who wants a guy pretending to be with someone else all the time?

Eventually I was wondering if he was thinking about it while we were together. I'm sure he was. Checked out of me, of us.

The thing is it didn't matter to h8m that it really bothered me. He was going to do whatever because.

He was always going to come first. If I ever objected, blame, shame, shouts, threats.....it got worse over time.

When it got to the weird stuff and he was cheating then really what's left?

The obsession and having to win regarding someone would bother me greatly.

VezfromTaz - thank you . I have heard of him and just started looking into that.

Cooley2here - right and everything you stated I know and believe so I'm really trying to assess if the work he is doing is legit and can be real since he seems to be self-aware which 99.9% of narcissists never even get to that place. Or if he isn't truly NPD but a combination of messy character defects. He hasn't been diagnosed by a psychiatrist, but his psychologist says he believes he is and is treating him as such despite a formal diagnosis.

He has said that the best he can do is to retrain his brain with the hopes that healthy thinking and habits can form over time, but that it may never be real and his default. He will forever have to check himself and allow himself to be vulnerable and humble enough to be corrected. He has told my WH that his thinking is broken and not based in reality and that he needs to always verify his thoughts/feelings/interpretations with me because I am grounded in reality.

Greto - I can definitely see where you're coming from and I agree, but I'm wondering like, will that seriously be enough to get to the nitty-gritty of changing his thought and behaviors?

leafields - and that is all true, but I'm wondering if maybe he's not fully NPD because he's very self-aware now and owns everything, doing the introspection, connecting the dots etc. so maybe just maaaybe he's able to do some work to change his behaviors? Because from what I understand true NPD, you can't even get them to see their flaws, let alone admit to them and work on them.

pureheartkit - EXACTLY! It is SO hurtful and disrespectful! He says he didn't see it before how disrespectful it was and much it would truly hurt. He had been trying to stop because he said he didn't actually want to be watching porn but also didn't recognize that it had become an addiction that he was never going to be able to get under control on his own.

So he tried to white-knuckle it, and stop all porn on his own and that never worked each time he tried, so he tried to stop watching the person who looked like the OW and any real people and moved into cartoon porn with the justification that it wasn't as bad because it wasn't real people.

All the while never realizing that there was a deep problem in there that was causing all of this. He has now been porn and masturbation-free for almost one year, the longest span of time since he started watching porn when he was 9/10.

He cries when he thinks of that. Tears of joy being able to say he's been "sober" from it, but also shame and embarrassment knowing how long it had been going on and how low it brought him and his family.

Have you had a polygraph done,to verify those details?

This is an incredible betrayal. Why are you staying? I don't mean that as a judgement. I'm asking if you've seriously considered that you don't have to gift him with reconciliation..again. You've been in false R for a very long time. It's cruel. It's inhumane. You don't have to stay.

What are you doing to heal yourself?

HellFire - He failed a polygraph in July and at that point, I had given up. He insists that the facts are all the truth, but what he was hiding were his feelings for her, that he thought he loved her.

I told him no need to take another test because I believe now seeing how thick the DENIAL is, he probably doesn't even know what's true or not. He says, however, that he knows how many women he had sex with because it was just me and her and that he specifically remembers how many times he had sex with her because it was so few and he remembers each time and that the acts were so close together.

He is planning to take another polygraph on his own and he says it's for himself so he can feel some sense of integrity knowing that he has gotten everything out and is beginning his new life as an honest man with integrity. He also says he is serious about staying away from porn for that reason as well, he realizes that everything else is in the past and the only thing he has control over now is what he chooses to continue to do and so he's trying to build integrity in small steps beginning with having proof that all the lies are out and that there has been no more porn for almost a year now.

I'm considering staying because we have 9 children together and our lives were picture-perfect before all this. My children are shattered, what they knew of their lives and the security of the family has been decimated. My 9-year-old said the pain hurts in his soul. I cant just do to them, what he did to me. I'm trying to do everything I can to at least stick it out until my 6-month-old is a teen?

Edited to add: I am in IC 2x a week as well and I am doing EMDR and brainspotting. I have also decided to sell our house and picturesque land to move across the country back to our mega-populated hometown (unfortunately also where all the betrayals happened so I'll be welcoming into my life a massive amount of triggers as well as the possibility of running into the OW and others who knew) to be closer to my family so I can have support. He has agreed.

He has also agreed to put everything in my name alone including our home and business so that in case he ever decides to so much as lie about what he had for lunch, I will leave and everything is mine, no post-nup needed, and no fighting in court.

He is not fighting me or being defensive about anything. All I see in him now is complete and utter brokenness, humility, and shame. there is no arrogance, pride or defense about him at all. I've likened him to a shrimp trying to find his way to becoming a human man.

[This message edited by IndigoSkye at 6:51 PM, Wednesday, November 2nd]

He insists that the facts are all the truth, but what he was hiding were his feelings for her

This would make him fail a question about his feelings for her. It wouldn't make him fail questions about anything else.

I understand staying for the kids. The only way that will be best for them,is if he becomes a man who can be trusted,is honest at all times, respects you,puts you first, and treats you like gold. AND if you can be happy with a man who was this horrible to you. A man who had sex with another woman, while you were pregnant. That will be very difficult for you to get past. He could have given you an std

. Some stds cause extreme physical damage to an unborn child. Some cause death. That will be very hard to be ok with. I hope you are in therapy with a good IC, and have an excellent support system.

What is he doing to repair the damage he caused the kids?

[This message edited by HellFire at 6:59 PM, Wednesday, November 2nd]

HellFire - Sorry I think I wasn't clear. He had sex with her 3 times within 2 months before we even got married. He did try to have sex with the OW again and another girl while I was pregnant though and they both declined and that IS bad enough because I know he was willing and never planning to use protection never did it even occur to him what an STD could have done to our baby. He hates himself when he thinks of it again.

And the polygraph was based on the disclosure and timeline that he wrote out in which case he was lying about his feelings for her. The question on the polygraph was, "Are you knowingly withholding any information about past affairs from your disclosure or your wife?"

I can see how if he knew he was still lying about that, he would have failed, but I also believe that he could still be withholding other facts as well. I simply don't know. My gut is so messed up from me ignoring it all these years, plus now all the trauma, I don't trust anything or anyone anymore, not even myself.

Edited to add: our oldest are young adults and are forgoing therapy despite us wanting them to start. Our 14 y/o is in IC twice a week as well. Our 9 y/o will likely start and the rest are under 8 and were mostly shielded from the fallout.

WH is working with his ICs and his SA/SLAA sponsor on how to make amends to and heal our children. He has a metric ton of shit he has to repair and it was all so long ago and he has virtually no muscle built up, ever on empathy, caring for others and putting the feelings and needs of others first, so this is huge for him and I'm watching it very closely.

[This message edited by IndigoSkye at 7:15 PM, Wednesday, November 2nd]

and that is all true, but I'm wondering if maybe he's not fully NPD because he's very self-aware now and owns everything, doing the introspection, connecting the dots etc. so maybe just maaaybe he's able to do some work to change his behaviors? Because from what I understand true NPD, you can't even get them to see their flaws, let alone admit to them and work on them.

NPD can be on a spectrum. One way that a covert narc is different from the grandiose narc is the part about seeing/admitting to flaws. The covert will say and admit to flaws, it is often a lie. They can do a lot of things and maintain it for quite some time, but they really aren't changing.

I can't tell you the number of times my XWH cried and said he'd stop porn or change to be/do A, B, or C. Never did.

Looks up "mirroring" and "breadcrumbing".

I hope your WH is doing the work and is changing to be a safe partner, doing the work and understanding that he needs to change.

Unfortunately, my XWH went to IC but didn't do the work to change. Went through the motions, but never did much homework. I think he thought that eventually I'd shut up & let things go back to the way things were.

Do you know what he's done to his new wife? He set himself up as being a cowboy, and did a lot of work with cows & horses. He used to change sprinklers, but didn't do anything with the livestock. He's horribly allergic to all kinds of hays & grasses. Told our kids that he didn't like cows & was scared of horses. But he created a totally different persona for his dating profile. He's basically lied about who he is and didn't give her the information she needed to make an informed decision.

leafields - that is my concern as well, that maybe he's just saying what he thinks we want to hear, he's a master at that. The only difference this time around is that he is taking initiative and coming up with things, connecting his own dots, and sharing what he's thinking/feeling and learning.

How long did your xWH stay in IC or MC for?

About 18 months of IC and about 3 of MC. We were in an MC when he confessed to being inappropriate with his next victim. He got high with his adult niece. She passed out and he groped her. He didn't even consider that it was sexual assault.