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Off Topic :
Respectful dialogue about Covid

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Loukas ( member #47354) posted at 3:34 PM on Thursday, January 27th, 2022

I’m so sorry for all of the losses you have experienced because of COVID.

As I am for yours.

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Loukas ( member #47354) posted at 6:35 PM on Thursday, January 27th, 2022

Perspective is important when discussing COVID. Our own experiences probably even more so. Here’s just one.

March of 2020, my province went into full lockdown. Gas stations and grocery stores were the only businesses allowed to open. Provincial borders closed to non essential travel. This was the 2 weeks to flatten the curve. We locked in our houses, some willingly, some begrudgingly for the greater good. As we watched the numbers in New York and New Jersey climb, our two largest provinces here faced similar consequences. The lockdown was extended for another 2 weeks. We sat in our houses and watched the death counts climb even more as COVID swept through our two largest provinces nursing homes. Another two weeks of lockdown. Manufacturing, construction, service industries all deemed non essential. Those who could work from home, had the opportunity to earn money. Me personally who works in peoples homes, unable to invade their safe place, rendered non essential.

After a month and half, our hospitals sat empty, anything that wasn’t an emergency, delayed until further notice. Our ICU’s which would usually be rather full, were empty but waiting, as was reported to me by a friend and doctor who was working in our largest ICU ward this province has. We escaped the first wave of COVID. 2 reported COVID deaths after the first month and a half. But at what cost to general publics mental health and financial well being? We’ll never really know.

With the summer months upon us, we wandered outside. Seen family and friends we hadn’t seen in what felt like an eternity back then. We shared our stories and horrors of the isolation. We were grateful to get back to life as normal as best we could at the time and padded ourselves on the back for our sacrifices for the greater good. Large gatherings were still not possible, sporting events, concerts, movies, church., but at least we could see familiar faces in their homes again. We even picked up some of the pieces destroyed by shutting down industries., but not all and they were definitely changed, to say the least. We got through the summer months with limited impact. Here, we had 8 COVID deaths by the end of September.

The fall of 2020 we cautiously continued moving on with life, but this is the north and it gets cold here. Our case counts begin to climb, a hundred cases a day one week, 200 cases a day the next, 400 after that, our hospitals are finally beginning to feel the pressure of COVID. Restrictions are brought in place to keep from overwhelming our hospitals. The numbers keep climbing, our hospitals overwhelmed. Beginning of November, lockdown. Most industry still allowed to operate, but services aren’t. No indoor recreational activities or gatherings. Retail is limited to essential purchases only, which leads to some of the most bizarre interpretations I’ve ever witnessed. I can’t walk into a big box store to buy a tool to do my job, but I can purchase a far inferior similar item from the dollar store. Under the consequence of $1200 fines, we aren’t allowed to host anyone in our homes who does not live there.

Case counts begin dropping mid December, but our Premier goes on TV ‘saddened’ that he has to be the one to cancel Christmas. We’re asked to report our neighbours if we see anyone not following mandates. Some do. My family secretly gathers in the basement of one of my brothers homes. We sneak over in the cover of darkness against current mandates to share in each others company and laugh over our tears about how ridiculous this overreach has become. Many don’t gather. No Christmas COVID spike for our province. Case counts keep dropping, but we lost a couple hundred in our first official wave of COVID.

Our government decides the lockdown will remain in place, not because our hospitals are overwhelmed, but out of fear that they might be again. If you haven’t experienced a Canadian prairie winter, it might be hard to grasp, but December, January and February are brutal to see the least. Temperatures with the windchill is regularly between -30 c and -40c. Those are numbers even our friends to the south share on their thermometers, no conversion necessary. The days are short, daylight is mostly only available to those with a window in their office or those working outside. But we get through these months together. Friends and family gathering, laughing, experiencing each other. Under the current lockdowns, any of that is punishable by $1200 fines. So we met under the cover of darkness, in remote areas of our province, to stand by a fire in the trees, just to see a smile and hear a story. We do this because we have to, the consequences of not doing so would be dire. Our province begins running ads, targeting the younger age groups who are meeting despite their mandates, telling us how we are killing grandma and grandpa. A few of our churches still closed and never really opened since the initial lockdown begin holding services in secret. The police catch wind, fines are issued, $5000 minimum. The media proudly reports the egregious acts of these churches as a warning to all. Some of the few see this as their stand, they continue hosting secret services and continue to get fined. One pastor gets arrested. The media once again all too happy to report these non compliant uncaring monsters without even offering the opportunity to hear their pleas. Churches begin hosting drive in services. No one allowed out of their vehicle or in someone else’s, just gather in person, in your car and listen over the radio. The police issue more fines. And shut the drive ins down. Fines issued to the churches are in the ten of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands.

Court challenges are brought, it’s decided churches can have drive ins, but that’s it. Keep in mind, this nearing the end of a Canadian Prairie winter, lockdown for 5 months and counting, only change, retail stores can finally sell anything without restriction and we’re finally allowed to host just one other family in our homes. Pretty much this whole time, COVID cases have been stable and hospitals aren’t under pressure, from COVID at least. But after six months of lockdowns, draconian mandates, another brutal winter behind us and quietly gathering in secret, our government begins lifting the lockdown. All the while schools have been more off than on since a year ago.

Vaccines are finally beginning to arrive. The most vulnerable and health care workers were able get their shots in limited supply a little earlier, but for most including those in their 60’s it’s not until April before they even have a chance at a shot. Folks beginning lining up, based on their risk and age. Lotteries are offered by the government with payouts of $100,000, to encourage vaccine uptake. Then vaccine passports are talked about. All this while experiencing our second COVID wave, so that in itself increases vaccine uptake. Within months, the vast majority is shot up with whatever vaccine they could throw in their arm. Restrictions are put into place to help with our rising case counts, but hospitals aren’t feeling the pressure they did in the fall. With summer months approaching, we’ll be out of this wave shortly, we hope. But tales from India have us concerned. We aren’t in lockdown, but we are heavily restricted and mandated.

Summer comes, case counts drop, vaccine uptake continues, but we lost many more in the third wave. Despite our best efforts to collectively protect. The more religious communities of the province still has a bitter taste in their mouth from the winter past. Churches are finally allowed to open, but in heavily restricted capacities. Draws become the solution to help church goers get their chance to sit in church again. Vaccine hesitancy grows in this population. It’s becoming statistically provable that a certain area of the province is having more cases per capita than the rest of the province. It just so happens that this area also has the lowest vaccine uptake. Heavier mandates are imposed on that area of the province, to encourage vaccine. The media and press briefings begin targeting them, pointing the finger for not coming along and doing their part. Vaccine passports are introduced, to control the movement of the unvaxxed. The media and government continue bombarding the unvaxxed, blaming them for making this last longer, filling our hospitals, mutating the virus and spreading it.

We enter the fall, over 85% of the province is fully vaccinated. Case counts are low, hospitals are fine. The unvaxxed continue to be the ire of the media and government. Their movements restricted to shopping and gas stations. If an unvaxxed is at a house, only that family can be there, no others. The government decides weddings are now free to host as many people as they wish, but if just one unvaccinated person attends, they aren’t allowed to serve alcohol…

Most begin enjoying a form of normal life again. They can watch a pro sports team, or eat at a restaurant, even go to church or play their favourite sports with their teams. All they have to do is scan their QR code and the world is their oyster. But not the unvaxxed, step up or shut up. Flying and trains are QR code only, workplace begin firing unvaccinated staff.

Winter comes, tales of a variant from half way around the world. Speculation and fear from our media. Our government is concerned and preparing for the inevitable, the begin targeting the unvaccinated more, more restrictions for them and a polite request to the vaxxed to not gather for Christmas again this year. After last year, most don’t comply this year. Omicron sweeps through our province, highest per capita cases in the nation. Case counts 3-4 times higher, estimates think cases may actually be 8-10 times higher, but we’ll never know, we couldn’t test quick enough. Hospital see numbers higher than ever before, the service industry is heavily restricted. They can open, but I don’t see how they could make profit. Either way, despite the division and discrimination, omicron doesn’t care about your vax status, triple jab, double jab, single jab or no jab, if your exposed your catching it. The government throws their hands in the air at the very beginning of the wave. If you’re young and healthy and have COVID symptoms, assume you have COVID, testing is overwhelmed, just stay home, they say.

And here we are. Omicron is still doing it’s thing. Apparently the cases are dropping, but folks also aren’t getting pcr tests, so case counts is no longer helpful. Hospital are still feeling the pressure, and it’s not just the unvaxxed filling them, they aren’t even the majority. Since omicron began, the government and media quit pointing the finger. But the unvaxxed still aren’t allowed to participate.

Keep in my mind, these stories come from just one man’s experience, from one province of one of worlds leading free nations. As a province we stepped up, we sacrificed for the greater good, we just decided it was acceptable to leave some behind.

posts: 1862   ·   registered: Mar. 29th, 2015   ·   location: The school of hard knocks
id 8712128
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Loukas ( member #47354) posted at 10:07 PM on Thursday, January 27th, 2022

On much more positive note, for any unaware. A protest began last Sunday, in Vancouver, truckers tired of the mandates and our freedoms being stolen here in Canada started a convoy to Ottawa. As they’ve been rolling through this nation, their numbers keep growing and support is far reaching. But don’t look to mainstream media to get an actual picture, they have been either silent, or grossly incompetent with their reporting. I was fortunate enough to be able to show my support as myself and thousands of others stood in -35c temps for three hours cheering them on. Only to turn on the tv and hear our PM call us the fringe minority.

Today, my fellow Canadians from the east coast and southern Ontario begin the legs of the convoy as the head for Ottawa. I don’t know what the media coverage will be, but social media can provide some great insight, to all kinds of Canadians participating and supporting this convoy. Rumours have it there are even some of our brothers and sisters from the US either joining or holding their convoys and slow rolling at various border crossings.

For many in this nation, it’s been the hope we’ve been waiting for, for two years. And the touching stories of how supportive folks been through the protest journey even more heartwarming. Make no mistake, this isn’t a political statement, or political protest, in Canada it was all our major political parties who stepped on our Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

I’m not sure why, but I feel like Sisoon might appreciate this part. Something very unique happened in Canada yesterday, the only living man left who was a part of creating and putting into law, the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, just filed a lawsuit against the federal government for infringing on our Charter. Imagine the complexities of that.

posts: 1862   ·   registered: Mar. 29th, 2015   ·   location: The school of hard knocks
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DevastatedDee ( member #59873) posted at 5:29 PM on Friday, January 28th, 2022

I find this to be akin to a bunch of people drunk driving as a protest against fines for drunk driving because most people don't die when they drive drunk and shouldn't they have the freedom to drive as drunk as they want without government interference? A few extra people dying is surely no reason to deny us the freedom of driving drunk.

DDay: 06/07/2017
MH - RA on DDay.
Divorced a serial cheater (prostitutes and lord only knows who and what else).

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Loukas ( member #47354) posted at 6:58 PM on Friday, January 28th, 2022

I find those opposed to Rights and Freedoms for all to be akin to tyrants.

posts: 1862   ·   registered: Mar. 29th, 2015   ·   location: The school of hard knocks
id 8712436
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sisoon ( Moderator #31240) posted at 7:48 PM on Friday, January 28th, 2022

The right to reject a Covid vax without a medical or genuine religious objection is also the right to infect others unnecessarily and to nurture potentially dangerous variants.

The right to reject the vax without reason is the right to endanger others.

And those who reject the vax and get sick and get hospitalized expect the rest of us to pay their bills...?

Think about this: we are all parts of multiple communities, and that brings us rights, benefits, and duties. Questions we all need to ask ourselves: What am I willing to give up to be part of my communities? What duties am I willing to perform to be part of my communities? Am I pulling my weight?

[This message edited by SI Staff at 8:50 PM, Friday, January 28th]

fBH (me) - on d-day: 66, Married 43, together 45, same sex apDDay - 12/22/2010Recover'd and R'edYou don't have to like your boundaries. You just have to set and enforce them.

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PSTI ( member #53103) posted at 7:49 PM on Friday, January 28th, 2022

People who support the "freedom convoy" might want to research a bit more and see who is backing this. I don't want to get political, and I'm not just talking right vs left.

As for Omicron being so mild... we have more deaths in Ontario this month from covid than at any time other than last January.

I read an article in the National Post about a Quebecois who visited Florida recently and said that he chatted with the locals who looked at covid precautions as "personal choices". He asked them what about social responsibility towards the collective, and was told they just don't look at it like that.

If that's what freedom is? I'll pass, thanks. Our actions impact others, and saying it's not your responsibility is just a copout.

I agree that driving drunk is a good comparison. You're not only risking hurting yourself but innocent bystanders.

[This message edited by PSTI at 1:54 PM, January 28th (Friday)]

Me: BW, my xH left me & DS after a 14 year marriage for the AP in 2014.

Happily remarried and in an open/polyamorous relationship. DH (married 5 years) & DBF (dating 4 years). Cohabitating happily all together!! <3

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Loukas ( member #47354) posted at 8:25 PM on Friday, January 28th, 2022

People who support the "freedom convoy" might want to research a bit more and see who is backing this. I don't want to get political, and I'm not just talking right vs left.

No, you are talking about right verse left. That has been the media spin. It’s unfortunate you believe it, but that’s the world we live in.

——————————-——————————————————————————————-

Just some facts from the world we currently live in, for those unable to update their views.

-Vaccines don’t protect against infection or transmission. Israel being the best example right now.
-Natural immunity proven more effective against serious illness than the vaccines. Per the CDC.
-Lockdowns only delay the spread.

posts: 1862   ·   registered: Mar. 29th, 2015   ·   location: The school of hard knocks
id 8712467
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DevastatedDee ( member #59873) posted at 8:59 PM on Friday, January 28th, 2022

I find those opposed to Rights and Freedoms for all to be akin to tyrants.

I find those opposed to safety measures during a pandemic to be akin to toddlers or sociopaths.

Lack of empathy is what I'm talking about here. Entitlement. Childlike insistence on getting to do whatever you want without consideration of others. Impulsive. Lack of concern about long-term implications for self or others. There would not be a need for a single mandate anywhere if people had sufficient empathy and concern and a sense of responsibility for others. You had more fines and more laws than we did here but it made no difference because the moment people were asked to do things in order to care for others in society, they had tantrums. Fist fights over masks. Murders over masks. Gathering together in large protests to breathe on one another during a pandemic (I mean, it's laughable really). Twisting reality to fit a narrative that meant they didn't have to face the reality of a pandemic. Denial so deeply intrenched that people die denying that they have the disease that's killing them. An acceptance of the deaths of the more vulnerable in our population as long as it meant they could keep doing what they wanted and not be inconvenienced. If we had all behaved like adults we wouldn't need mandates. No one was imposing fines or putting mask mandates into place so that they could sit back and giggle at everyone. It wasn't a giant troll job. My mom wouldn't let me eat cake and ice cream for every meal, but not because she wanted me to suffer. She wanted me to live. Luckily I grew up into an adult who knows not to do things like that and don't need rules about it. Society as a whole has not apparently reached that level of maturity.

DDay: 06/07/2017
MH - RA on DDay.
Divorced a serial cheater (prostitutes and lord only knows who and what else).

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sisoon ( Moderator #31240) posted at 9:06 PM on Friday, January 28th, 2022

-Vaccines don’t protect against infection or transmission.

No vaccine protects against all infection or transmission, but the sentence I quoted is, frankly, a total misrepresentation of fact. Many vaxes, and all those approved for use in Canada and the US, pretty clearly prevent a vast number of infections, mitigate many of the symptoms, and reduce the probability of death.

-Natural immunity proven more effective against serious illness than the vaccines. Per the CDC.

Sure - but there are a whole lot of people who clearly have no natural immunity and who have been helped by the vaccines.

-Lockdowns only delay the spread.

True, and delaying the spread of Covid-19 probably saved lives. This is one of the many cases in which lowering the peak demand on hospitals, equipment, and - oh, yeah - staff was beneficial to our societies.

fBH (me) - on d-day: 66, Married 43, together 45, same sex apDDay - 12/22/2010Recover'd and R'edYou don't have to like your boundaries. You just have to set and enforce them.

posts: 31114   ·   registered: Feb. 18th, 2011   ·   location: Illinois
id 8712473
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DevastatedDee ( member #59873) posted at 9:15 PM on Friday, January 28th, 2022

-Natural immunity proven more effective against serious illness than the vaccines. Per the CDC.

Yeah, and that's neat and all and it depends on a number of factors, but first you have to get COVID with no protection to avoid getting seriously ill with COVID the second time (assuming all went well the first time) which kind of defeats the purpose of trying not to get COVID.

[This message edited by DevastatedDee at 9:15 PM, Friday, January 28th]

DDay: 06/07/2017
MH - RA on DDay.
Divorced a serial cheater (prostitutes and lord only knows who and what else).

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Loukas ( member #47354) posted at 9:19 PM on Friday, January 28th, 2022

No vaccine protects against all infection or transmission, but the sentence I quoted is, frankly, a total misrepresentation of fact. Many vaxes, and all those approved for use in Canada and the US, pretty clearly prevent a vast number of infections, mitigate many of the symptoms, and reduce the probability of death.

A sorry on a COVID thread, I assumed were would all understand I was referring to COVID vaccines. Dirty games, Sisoon, very dirty.

Sure - but there are a whole lot of people who clearly have no natural immunity and who have been helped by the vaccines.

True, but we only accept one path towards immunity. No vax pass for these folks or recognition of them driving us towards the end,


True, and delaying the spread of Covid-19 probably saved lives. This is one of the many cases in which lowering the peak demand on hospitals, equipment, and - oh, yeah - staff was beneficial to our societies.

Except that isn’t how they were used and they ignore the larger community impact. Something you were proud to proclaim just above. So how does firing healthy staff and preventing them from earning for their families benefit the community? Or segregating them?

posts: 1862   ·   registered: Mar. 29th, 2015   ·   location: The school of hard knocks
id 8712477
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Loukas ( member #47354) posted at 9:20 PM on Friday, January 28th, 2022

trying not to get COVID.

How did that work out for you?

posts: 1862   ·   registered: Mar. 29th, 2015   ·   location: The school of hard knocks
id 8712478
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DevastatedDee ( member #59873) posted at 9:22 PM on Friday, January 28th, 2022

How did that work out for you?

I imagine quite a lot better than it would have unvaccinated.

DDay: 06/07/2017
MH - RA on DDay.
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Loukas ( member #47354) posted at 9:44 PM on Friday, January 28th, 2022

I imagine quite a lot better than it would have unvaccinated.

Hmm, ok. But it didn’t stop you from getting it? However you believe it protected you from serious illness and data can mostly back that up (has anyone seen as study breaking down ages groups, vaxxed, unvaxxed, and hospitalizations? I’m honestly just curious for my own benefit). If that’s what you mean, I mostly agree.

If I am understanding you correctly though, it means getting the vaccine is far more a personal protection choice, rather than community choice. Unless you want to go down the never ending rabbit hole of bad personal choices individuals make that lead to needing hospital care. It’s a very dangerous one at that.

posts: 1862   ·   registered: Mar. 29th, 2015   ·   location: The school of hard knocks
id 8712483
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sisoon ( Moderator #31240) posted at 9:46 PM on Friday, January 28th, 2022

A sorry on a COVID thread, I assumed were would all understand I was referring to COVID vaccines.

Yes, I started with a general statement about vaccines, but I was referring to Covid vaccines when I stated they prevented infections, mitigated symptoms, and reduced the death rate. Every vaccine approved for use in Canada and the US is backed by statistically valid numbers.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 9:56 PM, Friday, January 28th]

fBH (me) - on d-day: 66, Married 43, together 45, same sex apDDay - 12/22/2010Recover'd and R'edYou don't have to like your boundaries. You just have to set and enforce them.

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Loukas ( member #47354) posted at 9:56 PM on Friday, January 28th, 2022

Every vaccine approved for use in Canada and the US were backed by statistically valid numbers.

Fixed it for you. Funny thing about time, it changes things. Times are a changing.

posts: 1862   ·   registered: Mar. 29th, 2015   ·   location: The school of hard knocks
id 8712490
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DevastatedDee ( member #59873) posted at 10:09 PM on Friday, January 28th, 2022

Hmm, ok. But it didn’t stop you from getting it? However you believe it protected you from serious illness and data can mostly back that up (has anyone seen as study breaking down ages groups, vaxxed, unvaxxed, and hospitalizations? I’m honestly just curious for my own benefit). If that’s what you mean, I mostly agree.

If I am understanding you correctly though, it means getting the vaccine is far more a personal protection choice, rather than community choice. Unless you want to go down the never ending rabbit hole of bad personal choices individuals make that lead to needing hospital care. It’s a very dangerous one at that.

Getting a vaccine made me less likely to catch it. Granted Omicron changed the game a bit and made my vaccine less helpful, so sadly I did get it. I got it from my daughter who works in the fast food industry and had a manager come in actively sick with COVID. How this isn't just a personal protection choice is that the manager was unvaccinated, got it from an unvaccinated friend who doesn't know how she got it. Given that my particular area is something like 69% unvaccinated, odds are good she caught it from another unvaccinated person. Had the links in the chain been vaccinated, it's extremely likely that it wouldn't have made it to me. My daughter and I had the sniffles so we tested and got negative results. We assumed we had a minor cold. Several days later, I got sicker and re-tested to find out it was positive. I work part-time at an animal shelter and was likely contagious without knowing it while I worked there and exposed others to it. That so many are unvaccinated in this area means that I put lots of people at risk whose bodies can't handle the infection. Someone might have died or gotten very sick in the past week because of coming in contact with me, and I don't feel good about that. That's why I don't see it as just a personal choice. Lots of other people's personal choices led to me exposing others. That leads to potential deaths and hospitalizations which overwhelm our local hospitals and means that if I happen to get into a car accident or have a health crisis, I may not get the care I need because there aren't enough beds, nurses and doctors to handle the major influx of patients from COVID plus all the normal stuff.

DDay: 06/07/2017
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grubs ( member #77165) posted at 11:06 PM on Friday, January 28th, 2022

I hesitate to post on these threads at time as I'm more in the middle than on either side so I piss off those on both sides. The science is far from complete. Quite frankly the CDC's data production has been disappointing to say the least. We shouldn't have to use Israeli data. There is such a thing as going too far either direction. What we have is both sides avoiding or distorted data to support their narratives.

The best way to prevent covid deaths would have been to lock everyone down in place through 2 to 3 times the maximum incubation period without exceptions. This is basically the tactic taken by China in Hubei province. The death toll of such action in the west but we would have been huge even though we limited the death toll of covid. Saying that there is no debate on whether any particular mandate is worth the cost isn't backed by the real world. Florida and New York's COVID mandates are on opposite sides of the US spectrum. Their case and death rates per 1 million population are almost exactly equal. FL has ~4,000 more cases (~256k/M). NY has 300 more deaths (3300/M). Even the experts are guessing as we haven't had a novel virus this infectious go global in the modern age. There is no a doubt that a speed limit of 20 mph would save thousands of lives and gallons of gas yet our speed limits are much higher. The precautionary principal logical fallacy is in play here.

I vaccinated in the first available window. To me, while I had some concerns about the new mRNA techniques used and potential Antibody-dependent enhancements the risk of catching covid due to not being vaccinated outweighed those risks by far. mRNA vax slips messenger rna encapulated in lipids into your cells and use that mRna and cell structures to manufacture the protein fragments of the desired patterns to trigger the immune response. More typical vaccines inject proteins fragments created outside of your body. This ability to use our own cells to produce protein fragments hasn't been around long at all and has only had some much smaller scale clinical trials. This was the first time we did it on a massive scale. If you weren't worried about some unforeseen interactions with subsets of the population you weren't paying attention to how novel of a method this really is. I'm not sure we totally have an answer here yet.

I also have an issue with blanket vaccine mandates. Especially in the US where previous covid infection isn't sufficient substitute for being vaccinated. The Israeli data proves that previous infection is stronger protection than being vaccinated alone. The additional protection of vaccinating someone who lived through a covid infection gives little gain in protection. The effect is within the error bars. I would not have gotten vaccinated if I knew I had had covid. You are getting all the risk of the vax without any substantial benefit.

From Israeli study.

previous infection stronger protection

Our analysis demonstrates that SARS-CoV-2-naïve vaccinees had a 13.06-fold

increased risk for breakthrough infection with the Delta variant compared to those

previously infected, when the first event (infection or vaccination) occurred during

January and February of 2021. The increased risk was significant for a symptomatic

disease as wel

No significant benefit found to vaccinating those with covid.

Individuals who were previously infected with SARS-CoV-2 seem to gain additional

protection from a subsequent single-dose vaccine regimen. Though this finding

corresponds to previous reports24,25, we could not demonstrate significance in our

cohort.

hypothesized method.

The advantageous protection afforded by natural immunity that this analysis

demonstrates could be explained by the more extensive immune response to the

SARS-CoV-2 proteins than that generated by the anti-spike protein immune activation

conferred by the vaccine2

Note, I'm in no way recommending covid parties as doing so should put you in the running for a darwin award. Just pointing out that a person having had covid and survived shouldn't be forced to get vaccinated. In the US that was the goal prior to court defeat of the mandates.

Saddest story from yesterday. Woman in California who had MS for which she on a immune suppressing medication. She was denied being vaccinated for Covid because the vaccines contained a "live virus" which is verifiably untrue. After months of fighting for approval to be vaccinated she tested positive for covid and died before she could be vaccinated. News story was from the family now suing because of the denials.

[This message edited by grubs at 11:08 PM, Friday, January 28th]

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Loukas ( member #47354) posted at 3:14 AM on Saturday, January 29th, 2022

I find those opposed to safety measures during a pandemic to be akin to toddlers or sociopaths.

Safety measures is such a polite way of putting it. It’s almost as if those safety measures just silently hover above constitutional rights and freedoms. I’m not talking about masks either that debate is so irrelevant here, it’s not even discussed. I’m talking about clearly identifiable rights, like:

Every individual is equal before and under the law and has the right to the equal protection and equal benefit of the law without discrimination and, in particular, without discrimination based on race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disability.

This being the most blatantly obvious, but there are many more being trampled on here in Canada. Or there is simply the right of informed refusal. These issues are demonstrably larger than a mask, or "safety measures". It might be wise to tread carefully when calling someone a toddler or sociopath.

And finally, I’ve been saving this quote of yours for many pages now.

I am not an easily gaslit person. I have almost no capacity for "faith". I don't lead with my emotions. I don't do well with cognitive dissonance. Fuck, maybe I'm on the spectrum for all I know. What I do know is that when science matches observable reality, it's going to take A LOT for me to disbelieve both science and observable reality and send myself down a rabbit hole to believing things that aren't logical and rational.

Dee, you are so impossibly entrenched in your own experience and faith, you are unable to see the forest for the trees. If you lived here, you’d be living in your COVID utopia. But you don’t and because of that, we’ll just go on in this never ending circle. Don’t let your emotions fool you, your logic does suffer from cognitive dissonance. Just as you are entitled to your beliefs so are others to theirs (another right, btw) but don’t mistake either as fact.

posts: 1862   ·   registered: Mar. 29th, 2015   ·   location: The school of hard knocks
id 8712544
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