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You are in a danger zone here. Waywards need to make an effort to Admit, Apologize & Atone (as you define it). Without this there is no way to do the mental gymnastics that would be required to reconcile. I would have a very direct conversation with the MIL. Her presence is toxic (triangulation) to the reconciliation process and she needs to take a step back. I was in a similar situation with my WW some time ago. My anger and outrage leaked out where it did not belong. Take the time you need to make the best decision and find a confidante you can vent to. Kindest Regards!

"You bashing me in front of people is disrespectful towards me and is not conducive to repairing a marriage. Is this is how you feel, why are we wasting our money on MC? You obviously can’t stand my guts or you wouldn’t instinctively want to bash me to people. Just admit the reality."

That response is childish, self-centered, remorseless, and not at all "conducive" to reconciliation or healing. Her problem isn't that she betrayed her husband and her family... it's that people are talking about it. And if we want to talk about who is feeling damaged by people talking, where is her empathy?? How humiliating it must have been for you to have that conversation with a guy who KNEW what was going on when you didn't, but your WW is focused on the idea that you had the audacity to not ask her exalted permission before discussing YOUR LIFE. That's right. This is YOUR LIFE now. She made this a part of your life. You didn't ask for it, she just did that on her own. Ugh! I'm pretty peeved on your behalf right now.

We spent some time yesterday contemplating divorce and we are close to realizing that this marriage is beyond repair. OMG, I can’t wait until the holidays are over. We have 3 kids and this may very well be our last Christmas together as a family.
Was I out of line about this? The only details I shared was that I confronted her twice during the A and she lied her way out of it. Nothing else.

Oh… and to make matters worse, her mom lives with us and was drinking and scolded me about it. She told me that I should have defended her and told him that I was a horrible husband and that the affair was my fault because I wasn’t meeting her needs. But that right there is another thread in and of itself.

I don't remember if you saw an attorney yet, but if not, I'd interview three or four. Make sure you've seen the ball-busters in town so they'll have a conflict of interest and she won't be able to use them. You might have talked about divorce, but chances are she doesn't really believe you'll go through with it. I'm with Bigger at this point though. I think you'd do well to get serious about filing. If she's able to extricate her head from her hindquarters in time to stop you, so be it. If not, you're closer to resolution and D.

Oh.. and I'd invite the MIL to pack it up and move on. Just tell her you're pretty sure it's going to come to divorce since her daughter can't seem to take responsibility for her CHOICE to commit adultery.

That's the opening ante on Reconciliation, really... taking full and complete responsibility for being the kind of person who would say "yes" to perfidy and betrayal. A cheater can't fix what she won't acknowledge and if she's told you before that she "takes responsibility", you can see there in her response to you today that she does not. I'm sorry this doesn't appear to be going your way at the moment. Sometimes though, we see really stubborn WS who just won't get it until they are literally losing everything... and sometimes, not even then.

Lefonquey1

I know my respond sounds harsh. I have a reputation for keeping it real – be it real for reconciliation or real for divorce. I’m open to both and in fact some posters have suggested I’m too pro-reconciliation. To many simply thinking R is attainable or possible is "too pro-reconciliation". I truly think couples can reconcile and there are numerous examples here on SI to support that theory. However – it needs to be from a certain base or starting point. One of them being that the WS wants to break out of infidelity-mentality.

The most information we have about your situation is in your first post. Nothing in that post indicated your wife was willing to reconcile. She was willing to remain in the marriage, but she was stalking OM, blaming OM, blaming you… Not to mention your relationship started as infidelity and there had been previous instances. That’s why I stated that at best you were in inactive infidelity. IMHO if the cause isn’t handled you are doomed for a repeat. Plus, it did sound like everyone except you knew about the affair. It got complex but basically it sounded like a group of medical professionals were in some strange power struggle/love triangle. It all sounded extremely unhealthy.

I don’t think that you – the BS – should be thinking R or D right now. I do however think you should be thinking "how do I get this relationship out of infidelity". THAT might lead you towards R or D. Think of it like this: Imagine you and your wife had an elastic band around you. She’s doing her best to stand firm outside (or at the very edge) of what would be considered the circle of marriage. You want to get closer to the middle, so you start heading that way – increasing the pressure on the elastic band. Something must give – you can adjust the pressure or ease off for a bit, but if she adamantly stays where she is and refuses to budge then this can only end in one of two ways: you give up and adjust to a freak-marriage or the band snaps.

It’s extremely rare and very hard for a WS to realize right away their accountability and the steps they need to implement to reconcile. Often it falls on the BS to lay out some basics. To me it sounds like those basics aren’t in place. Some of the basics often suggested are:

Total NC with OM.
Any stakeholder or impactor knows of the affair and can help/impact with NC and recovery.
IC for the WS – this takes place before MC.
Total accountability and truth.
The removal of negative impactors (i.e., MIL) from the marriage.

We can guide you onwards on what might be best to do, but frankly you need to respond with what you are willing to do. What I can tell you based on my quite extensive experience here on SI is that AS IS you are fighting a losing battle. Not because of the cause, but mainly because you are choosing the wrong battleground and the wrong weapons.

Regarding your MIL. You really need to put your foot down regarding her interventions. Can she move out?

Regarding divorce:
It’s a common situation where a couple starts talking D but are using it as leverage or a threat to get the other to comply. This is often started with the statement "I want a divorce". As if they come gift-wrapped. If you or your wife want a divorce then either one of you simply goes and files. You don’t need permission, nor do you ask the other to file the divorce you want. "I want a divorce", followed by "I want the house" and "I want the dog and the good car and the boat and your golf-set" generally means "either you comply with my demands on how this marriage should be or I will divorce you but I would prefer not to".

In anything other than a <5 year, childless marriage divorce should always be overseen by a lawyer. Im not talking Kramer vs Kramer type attorneys or adding unnecessary costs. If amicable then having one attorney read over any divorce contract (or maybe have him write it up) makes sense simply to ensure neither of you get’s hit with a forgotten tax-debt or a cosigned credit-card payment some years down the line.

If she says she wants a divorce then say fine. Then go make a sandwich or watch a rerun of Friends. Don’t participate in any discussion on the issue. If she asks then say something along the lines of:
"I can accept we divorce. It beats having you in infidelity. There are laws and procedures in place that clearly outline the process and I will get a professional to help me ensure it’s done fairly. I am too emotionally attached to this marriage to handle this alone."
And then increase the volume on Friends.

Are you sure your MIL has not had an affair herself?

I believe she did have an affair at some point with one man, following multiple affairs from her husband. I guess her affair went on for a while and even my wife knew the guy as a child, but I don't know much details about it. Her husband found out and went berserk on her. I don't think he hit her or anything, but she apparently broke it off and went back to her marriage. In her mind, her affair was justified and was used as punishment for her husband.

Again, I don't have many details about it outside what is above.

Your mother-in-law is out of line. The nerve of her to say or think those things!!! What the F. Really!
I am sorry you have to deal with this. It must be absolutely horrid.
Your WW seems angry and bitter.
For her to verbally attack you is unfair and not helpful to R. It’s hurtful and wrong on so many levels. She needs to get on board and be ON YOUR SIDE
She needs to believe you are on her side. You always were. Otherwise you wouldn’t have taken her back.
She needs to do work to get over whatever she’s going through. She needs to own what she;s done to you and the marriage. She can’t hide behind the anger and shame if she wants to save the marriage. She needs to put your needs first and foremost.
Sorry you are going through this. Sending you strength and peace.

We can guide you onwards on what might be best to do, but frankly you need to respond with what you are willing to do. What I can tell you based on my quite extensive experience here on SI is that AS IS you are fighting a losing battle. Not because of the cause, but mainly because you are choosing the wrong battleground and the wrong weapons.

Regarding your MIL. You really need to put your foot down regarding her interventions. Can she move out?

Regarding what I'm willing to do... from DDay on, my first reaction was to ask to move out of the neighborhood and to get my family away from all these people, but my wife was unwilling to do so. We already have a house out of state and it would be a very easy thing for us to do. She felt that the AP promised her that he would move his family if things between them fell apart and for the first several months, she obsessed with how she can get them to move. I didn't press the issue too hard because I know that whatever issues we have would follow no matter where we go. However, it seems to me that it would be much easier if we didn't have the daily potential of running into him or his wife and all the neighborhood gossip. I still think that moving out of state is the best thing for us, but she's still adamantly against it. She loves our house, doesn't want to uproot our kids, and doesn't want to move away from her pediatrician friend. Plus, our out of state house is near MY family and she blames my sister for a lot of this and doesn't want to be close to her. Oh... did I mention that his youngest and my youngest are set to start Kindergarten at the same school next year? The thought of this nauseates me.

As far as my MIL... my kids are very close to her and she has done a great job protecting them from our toxicity these past 6 months. If we were to begin the process of D, she would be very helpful to insulate our kids from any collateral damage. Plus, my wife has made it clear from day 1 that her mom and her are a package. If I were to ask her to leave, my wife would likely start telling the kids that Daddy wants her to leave for no reason. My MIL has a place to go back in her home country, but she's not very happy there and their COVID restrictions are absolutely insane because it's been running rampant. She's tired of the whole situation and would have gone home for a while, but the COVID stuff has kept her away. She doesn't speak any english and has no way to earn money, so even if we got her an apartment, she'd be spending most of her time at my house anyway.

Oh... and regarding the move out of state. We're planning to go there this coming Friday to stay through xmas and New Years. I'm hoping to sell the idea while we're there. My kids love it there and have lots of cousins and friends close by. My wife also has some people there, too, so she wouldn't be all alone.

Again, I know that our issues would follow us... but this move out of state would provide safety from all these toxic people and give us time to figure out our next steps.

Plus financially, it make much more sense because that house is paid off and we'd be able to sell our current house very quickly. If we decided to split up, we would have the cash to do so very comfortably. If we decided to R, then we'd be able to move just about anywhere in the country. Plus, we'd have a better support system there... or at least I do. However again, my wife doesn't want to be near my sister for very long. BTW... my sister and none of our people there know anything about the affair.

I'm terrified that one of the neighborhood kids will eventually tell my kids about the affair, too. My youngest are 4 and 7, so they're still a bit young to comprehend (for now)... but my 12 year old goes to school with the AP's daughter and the AP's daughter does know. However, she's in a different grade and they are not friends. But they do sometimes say "Hi" to each other when they pass in the hallway and my daughter is friends with some of the kids whose parents know. I just hope to god these parents have the good sense to to tell their kids.

The whole thing is one giant shit show.

[This message edited by Lefonquey1 at 4:11 PM, Tuesday, December 14th]

Id be itching to get out of that town if I were in your shoes. Your whole life is the subject of gossip, and your wife is more concerned about her image and her friend circle than your recovery. Your MIL sounds like a toxic individual as well. The kids make moving anywhere else complicated, but Id at least move far enough away so that you could form a completely fresh circle of friends.

Hi LFQ1,

You do hold more cards than you believe. If your WW doesn't want your family knowing about the affair, and refuses to move, tell your family about it. Or you can move (w/o exposure) and then tell them about it once you're established there. Either way, tell your family- you need the support and she doesn't get the say on what you do with basic facts of your marriage. She is the one who left the marriage. She does not get to dictate terms going forward. Get D papers written w/ a lawyer. Let her know, "I am working with X attorney and have papers ready for you to sign. If you would like to salvage this M, you need to A. get into IC NOW, B. move to 2nd home with me and kids, C. go NC with toxic friends XYZ. Otherwise, I will serve you with papers by (insert 1 week time so she can find an IC in the new area)"

My BH told his family a year after it happened. He needed their support and I needed the extra layer of accountability- seeing their pain in addition to his own drove home for me the gravity of my actions. It's still difficult between us, but as my BH heals and our M stabilizes, so does the relationship between me and in-laws.

If it's too hard to unstick the MIL right now, maybe be patient with that. When COVID is more resolved, she can go back to her home country. I also find it strange that your MIL hasn't learned English yet- at least enough to function and get around here. How long has she been here?

Anyway, if you want to move, do it. Make it a condition for the marriage to remain intact. Frankly, uprooting the kids now to an area where they have cousins/aunt/uncle etc is WAY better and less traumatizing than being the butt of the rumor mill when they move on through high school. It will come out. Kids aren't stupid. My dad had a blatant affair with a close family friend when I was 6 until I was about 12. We picked up (even as elementary students) on the weird vibes between them and then started talking about how all us kids are going to be sisters. Yep, a pack of 5 elementary school girls were talking about our mom and dad getting married and us being sisters. F-ed up.

Get out now. The kids will benefit from being away from the toxicity (even if they eventually learn about it, it will have a higher chance of coming from you guys and not a pack of catty teenagers). You need this support from your family. YOU need it for YOU and your kids don't need to be growing up in a toxic community that enables cheating.

If you can't justify doing it for yourself, do it for your kids. Do it- don't ask, say, "we're transferring our kids to XYZ schools after Christmas. I need to be with my family now and we need to leave our toxic circle of friends. You are welcome to join us, but we will be going."

I hope the 12 year olds parents had the good sense to give her age appropriate honesty,if she asked them what was wrong. Lying to a child is a bad idea,for a multitude of reasons.

You ASKED her to move? Why didn't you make it a requirement of reconciliation??

Your wife, instead of working on herself,and healing the damage she has caused you,herself,the marriage, and the children, has spent her time stalking the OM and his innocent wife, she's been going to mutual friends and LYING to them, in an attempt to hurt the OBS. Why is any of that ok?? After dday, a wayward MUST become honest with everyone, and must go NC. She doesn't want to do that.

You can not reconcile with am unremorseful WS. Stop tolerating her abuse. Take control of the situation now.

[This message edited by HellFire at 6:35 PM, Tuesday, December 14th]

Again, I know that our issues would follow us... but this move out of state would provide safety from all these toxic people

Lefonquey,

Unfortunately, the issues that will follow you right now is YOUR WIFE AND YOUR FEAR OF LOSING YOUR MARRIAGE. There is no where on Earth that your family can go to avoid this.

There is not one person on here that has stated that your wife, currently, is of reconcilable material. She would be the definition of the exact opposite. She has shown ZERO EMPATHY for you and your pain, and I HIGHLY doubt that it is a shame cycle that is keeping her in this mindset. She has been borderline hostile to the OBS, and borderline obsessive about her AP. And Lefonquey, as much as I hate to say this, you have been entirely too passive towards your wife about this entire situation. You are so fearful of her leaving(I get it, I really do), that you are accepting of appalling behavior being thrown your way.

I say these things to you because I hate seeing you continually suffer at the hands of your wife. You can't see this right now, but 1,3,5 years down the road, you are going to evaluate, and reevaluate how you handled yourself post-discovery. And more likely than not, you are going to struggle DOWN THE ROAD about how you did not stand up for the biggest victim in this disaster----yourself. But you have the ability to change the course that you are currently heading. It isn't about 'manning up' or 'sucking it up'.....it is about standing up for what is RIGHT. It is bout being your own best advocate....not what you think is best to keep the family 'together'.

Stop worrying about what your WW may and may not like. Start thinking about what you want beyond keeping the marriage together. Start thinking, and taking actions, for yourself.

Rather than tell us what she won’t do then how about telling us what she’s willing to do to reconcile?

Why is she still friends with the doctor(s) that conspired to destroy your marriage?????

Unfortunately, because of her parents, it sounds like your wife's version of a 'normal' marriage includes adultery (and a lot of yelling, threats and hurt feelings but in the end the BS sucks it up).

Plus she somehow plugged into a social circle of doctors that conspired to destroy both marriages.

In addition, IMO you wife doesn't believe divorce is on the table (her mother sucked it up). She believes you won't divorce (because of the kids) and uses that against you to get her own way.

Under the circumstances, what your wife wants is irrelevant.

She cheated (and there will be consequences).

One of the consequences of her betrayal is moving and starting over elsewhere or whatever else she needs to do to help you heal.

This disruption is a direct result of her decision to cheat (it's not a result of you waking up one day and deciding to move).

Bigger nails it perfectly. But, whatever you decide, the mother-in-law has got to go ASAP.

Why are you posting on the R forum ? Based on what you posted you seem to be walking on eggshells and afraid of how your WW would react, you still haven't even expose her huge betrayal to your side of the family, you need IRL support from the people who love you. That being said I think you should "simply" file for D and let the chips fall where they may, at this point your M is a sham and your WW is not giving you much to work with if anything at all. Life's too short and you deserve so much better than this unremorseful cheater and liar, file for D, you can always stop it if she comes around, or NOT !!! you need to take control of your life, stop giving her that control, as others have pointed out, she seems more concerned about the grapevine gossip and her reputation than what she did to you and her family, at this point she's no R material by a very long shot.

By now you've received enough advice from the posts to this question to have a general idea of what needs to happen here, right? The choice is yours what you choose to do, but at a minimum if your desire is to save your marriage, your wife needs to get onboard. From the sounds of things, she's not even close yet. And there's not much you can do to move her there or get her to see the light. That has to be her. And whether she is capable of making this change, or even wants to, are open questions.

What do you want? Do you see yourself in a M as your MIL describes? Accepting things as they currently are, knowing your wife is still in a cheater's mindset? If cheaters and liars are to change, they have to move out of that mind-bubble of denial and self-protection. Had my H ever expressed annoyance or anger that I had outed him and his affairs (which I did loudly and widely early on), that would have been a huge red flag and definitely would have changed the trajectory of our R. This is where "listening to your gut" comes in. You're a smart guy. You KNOW what's going on around you, you KNOW your wife is not ready to work on R and that your MIL is wrong. Standing up to both of them and telling them what you need and what you expect from them seems to be in order.

Standing firm and not accepting less than what you deserve is what will help you out of infidelity, Lefonquey1. And what the others choose to do is out of your control, but if your wife truly wants to remain in the M, her behavior will show you of her commitment. ACTIONS are needed. You've received a lot of excellent advice from many who have been in your shoes. Take what works for you and your situation and use it to your advantage.

[This message edited by psychmom at 2:15 PM, Wednesday, December 15th]

Oh my man, you are being way too nice.... After reading your initial post I actually was upset already, if I were you I would have put them both in their place in a heartbeat.....
Once thing I learned quickly was that in R you have to be firm and stand your ground, do not tolerate any BS like that after all you are already going thru.... If a M is to recover from an A it has to come from a place of strength, dignity and resolve.

If a M is to recover from an A it has to come from a place of strength, dignity and resolve.

I understand why you don’t want to force your wife to move. If she’s unhappy in your new location you can see how your marriage will suffer.

Unfortunately you have to put yourself first. And your kids. Even if it is at odds with what your wife wants.