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So we've been working on R for the last 6 months. And he does barely leave my side or go out. Using Life360 to track, I have access to phone records, we're doing counseling, etc. He gets frustrated because he feels I'm always checking up on him. The Counselor says I can't affair proof him, and so we're trying to work on trust.

The other night he went out to watch a game. He told me he was at 1 bar, he repeated it, called me, was texting me the whole time, etc. He was only out a couple of hours and called a couple times. He said he just wanted to be home with me (we sorta got into an argument that day about how I'm always taking care of the baby, etc.)

Anyways, the next day I'm putting clothes away and see a crumped up receipt. It is from the bar he was at the night before but it wasn't the bar he told me was at. It was a swanky lounge place he normally wouldn't go to. I asked him again the next day where he went he told me X place. I told him I had the receipt for Y. He said yes I got a chicken sandwich there, I didn't want the grunge bar food at the other place, it was nearby and empty so that's where I went. I just didn't mention it. I was like, your sandwich was $60? That was the amount. He was like I got a drink and a sandwich. But I looked at the menu and that literally doesn't add up.

I asked for an itemized receipt and I'm still waiting on it. He says he shouldn't have lied but he didn't think about it - it was a better place to grab food and he grabbed a drink but didn't finish it and came home early anyways and was talking to me the whole time. He was alone and didn't do anything wrong. But it's still weird to me. He says he pays tabs all the time without looking at the bill and even if he's charged for something he didn't order, it doesn't mean he was there with anyone else. I dont know - red flags. Yes he came home, no I dont think he was sleeping with anyone - but he is LYING to me about where he went and those little lies MATTER. I dont have to tell you all that.

I haven't yet gotten the itemized receipt - do I just call and get it myself or ask him again? I feel like it's gonna blow up to a big fight, since he feels like he's living under a microscope and is afraid to do anything at all - but that also feels like blame shifting, or whatever.

What would you all do? Get the itemized receipt on your own?

[This message edited by NewMomNeedingAdvice at 4:48 PM, Wednesday, October 13th]

I'm sure someone with more experience will be along to give great advice. Just wanted to let you know that you've been heard - how frustrating - you are definitely right to be upset about this. Don't let him make you feel like you're 'pestering' him. This is all on him, and he should definitely know better. Lying is not ok. Personally, I would attempt to get the itemized receipt myself, but it sounds like no matter what's on it, he'll have an excuse?

Must’ve been one hell of a chicken sandwich!

You know the truth. Whether you do anything about it or not is up to you.

Being a marriage warden is a thankless task.

I feel like it's gonna blow up to a big fight, since he feels like he's living under a microscope and is afraid to do anything at all

This right here is a huge red flag to me...aside from lying to you and an absurd bar tab for a sandwich and a drink (that doesn't seem right at all BTW) He cheated...he wants to reconcile...part of that is being ACCOUNTABLE for where he is and what he is doing. It isn't "being under a microscope" that is him showing that you and your safety are his priority, NOT his privacy.

You have every right to be upset and call him out on it. Don't play into the blame-shifting. He was not where he said he was, he lied to you about it multiple times, and is trying to make you feel bad for wanting some basic reassurances that anyone in your situation would want. That isn't ok.

[This message edited by FairyTaleGone at 5:43 PM, Wednesday, October 13th]

So question, would you ask him again to get the itemized receipt? Or would you just get it yourself?

Also - is that hard to do btw? I assume a restaurant would have that on hand easily.

When you've cheated and then you do something like that and lie about it, it looks like you're still cheating. The automatic assumption is that he's hiding something, and it's clear he is because I'm pretty sure a $60 chicken sandwich meal either means buying for more than one or that this is the most badass chicken sandwich that 100% wins the chicken sandwich wars for all time. He did something shady that he doesn't want to admit to. That is what you know for sure. That, and he's an idiot because that was easily found by you.

So let's logic this one out.

As for not looking at the tab, I'm going to assume he leaves tips like a normal person. We calculate how much to tip by how much the bill is. At that point, we write the tip amount and add it to the total to write the total paid when signing it. It is nigh unbelievable that he'd not look at the total while tipping.

He's double-stupid because all he had to say was "I took the guys I was with to grab a sandwich at the other bar and I paid". But if he says that now, you won't believe it because if it were innocent he'd just have said that in the first place.

Allow yourself to know what you know. This isn't cool.

Sorry, are you saying I shouldn't ask for the itemized receipt? And just act on what I know now?

I guess I'm wondering - are there 2 meals on there. Are there 2 sets of drinks, etc. Like, if there was white wine ordered I know that's not him. That's what I'm looking for. All I have now is the CC receipt without the tip on it. Like, it's $57 and change without the tip. And I looked up the menu, the chicken sandwich is $15.

Go ahead and get the itemized receipt because it will help you see what you know. He'll probably say it wasn't his or whatever, that they billed him wrong, that suddenly he remembers there was a male friend he got food for as well, etc. etc. etc. But seeing it will help your brain process.

I'd be furious. Get the receipt. And please update. It could be innocent, but he's still lying.

So question, would you ask him again to get the itemized receipt? Or would you just get it yourself?

Also - is that hard to do btw? I assume a restaurant would have that on hand easily.

Just call the restaurant and ask them for it. They should be able to track it down by the transaction number on your receipt. If they give you any guff about it, tell them it's for your expense account at work and that you'll be happy to pay them a little fee for the trouble. At this point, you've asked your WH to do it and his failure to get it done is his answer.

Here's the problem he's having... Checking is OPPORTUNITY. It's not a punishment. It's how he proves over the course of time that he can be trusted. His word is NOT good enough. He is, after all, a PROVEN LIAR. So, every time you check and he comes up clean, a little drop of trust is added to your empty trust bucket. The fact that he's feeling frustrated about it tells you that his empathy is with himself and not with you. Your counselor says you can't "affair proof" him, and s/he is right. You can't. But HE can. And he's not doing it. Instead, he's more worried about going to bars and about how much time you spend with the baby. And honestly, what kind of man complains about the amount of time you spend taking care of his child? So far, what you're describing is a really selfish, immature, deceitful guy who is actively RESISTING change. Are you sure you're where you want to be???

If I were you, yeah... I'd go ahead and get proof about the obvious lie he's told you so I could rub his nose in it. But after that, I believe I'd have to think long and hard about how much more I could afford to invest in a guy who's actively showing his disinterest in making meaningful changes.

There's a reason for his lying.

I'd try to get the detailed receipt to satisfy my curiosity, but it likely won't give you any solid answers.

I think I'd pretend that I believed him and that everything is hunky dory, then go into stealth mode.

I'd get the receipt; tell them you need it for work purposes. They should have those records. Then go from there with what you have.

Thank you all. Yes I'll get the info - and Tea- he wasn't complaining about me watching the baby, I was complaining about wanting more help. Like, he was going out to watch the game and I was like, oh so it's just assumed I get to watch the baby again. I'm tired of being the default parent. It really wasn't anything out of the ordinary of normal new parent arguments. But yes, the lying about the place, etc. is not right.

Sigh, the place opens at 4pm so I have to wait until then. 3 more hours.

The Counselor says I can't affair proof him, and so we're trying to work on trust.

How does your counselor manage trust rebuilding? This is critical to your recovery and potential for R. If the counselor treats trust as something that you just give, that your husband doesn't have to earn, then you are in for a world of hurt. He is a proven liar and cheater. You shouldn't trust him. It would be irresponsible of you to trust him. What is he expected to do by the counselor to earn your trust?

Ok, so marriage police, marriage warden, whatever, you pick the title. I think that it's a natural part of the process, but not something you can do forever.

1) You have to do it during recovery and the beginning of R, or else you cannot rebuild trust. At the beginning you have to treat the WS as an enemy in an informational war with you. It's up to them to make you feel like they are a partner, not someone that is still lying to you and cheating on you.

2) You eventually should *naturally* feel less of a pull to keep looking. It's not worth it because every time you do check in detail, the the details match up. Your WS has been honest, you checking only proves they have been honest. You should start to feel that it is a waste of effort.

3) If you don't get to the second point, you can't keep being the marriage police forever. They have failed recovery and cannot enter R. You must end the M to get out of infidelity.

Yes, being the marriage police isn't sustainable. But that doesn't mean it isn't completely necessary for some period of time to re-establish trust.

They say they will do X, they do X, you look, they did X. A measure of trust is added to the bucket. Do this hundreds of times and trust slow returns. There is no other way.

In your case, he says he will do X, he does Y, you look, he did Y. Not only did trust not enter the bucket, he has takes some out. He treats the whole thing like it shouldn't matter and you should just trust him already. Hell no. He is actively setting recovery back with a lie when he had an opportunity to build trust.

Ask him, "Do you want me to ever trust you again? How do you propose rebuilding trust? You shattered my trust, and I do not trust you right now. You are a proven liar and cheater. That's where we are, and that doesn't improve on it's own."

Edit to add: I wrote this without reading ChamomileTea's response and realize we have made a lot of the same points. Consider the consistency between our advice evidence of what is needed to rebuild trust.

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 7:17 PM, Wednesday, October 13th]

It's not relevant whether he lied about a chicken sandwich or a date with another woman. You know he's lying and, more importantly, he thinks he is justified in lying, whether overtly or by omission.

There is also this rather telling statement (emphasis mine):

He says he pays tabs all the time without looking at the bill and even if he's charged for something he didn't order, it doesn't mean he was there with anyone else.

One of the ways you can tell someone is lying is that they respond to a question that you didn't even ask. He knows there are suspicious items on that bill and he is preparing his excuse in advance.

I think you have 2 options here:

(1) Tell him that if he doesn't like be monitored or asked about where he is or what he's doing, you will respect his wishes. But he will need to respect your decision to no longer be in a relationship with someone you can't trust. Then you leave.

(2) Do what 13YearsR suggested and go into stealth mode. Pretend you're exhausted and giving up; stop checking his devices, stop asking for his whereabouts and whos-abouts, and let him get comfortable with being off the leash. After enough time goes by, he will get sloppy and get caught again.

Personally, I think #2 is a waste of time, particularly since you're not married and really don't have anything gain from a legal or financial standpoint by sticking it out for another year or so.

So question, would you ask him again to get the itemized receipt? Or would you just get it yourself?

Also - is that hard to do btw? I assume a restaurant would have that on hand easily.

Yes, looks like it would help you to know what the receipt was about. So, go ahead and ask the place for an itemized receipt. What you found should have a transaction # on it. Give them a receipt that you found , and they'll be able to pull the full transaction.

Then you'll go from there... One step at a time.

One of the ways you can tell someone is lying is that they respond to a question that you didn't even ask. He knows there are suspicious items on that bill and he is preparing his excuse in advance.

This! And this way, NMNA, you may have the answer. By connecting the dots.

Sorry you have to go thru this....

[This message edited by TruthIsPower at 7:53 PM, Wednesday, October 13th]

Do what 13YearsR suggested and go into stealth mode. Pretend you're exhausted and giving up; stop checking his devices, stop asking for his whereabouts and whos-abouts, and let him get comfortable with being off the leash. After enough time goes by, he will get sloppy and get caught again.

Personally, I think #2 is a waste of time, particularly since you're not married and really don't have anything gain from a legal or financial standpoint by sticking it out for another year or so.

To clarify, I don't think that she should stop checking anything. I think that she should make him think that she's dropping it and not checking anything. If NMNA thinks she needs more proof that something foul is afoot, this is the way to go.

Personally, I agree with you that this lie, and his attitude about being tracked, is enough.

[This message edited by 13YearsR at 7:40 PM, Wednesday, October 13th]

Get the receipt. He’s obviously lying about something- it doesn’t really matter what it is he’s lying about, what matters is that he cannot be trusted. Trust your gut.

I agree with every single thing ThisisFine said. I’m 4.5 years out and I’ve mostly stopped checking because EVERY SINGLE TIME I did he was telling the truth. Every time I checked it was his opportunity to build trust back, little bit by little bit.

As an aside, I have a baby at home too. Why is this man letting you do the heavy lifting at home while he is out galavanting at bars?

He says he pays tabs all the time without looking at the bill and even if he's charged for something he didn't order, it doesn't mean he was there with anyone else.

One of the ways you can tell someone is lying is that they respond to a question that you didn't even ask. He knows there are suspicious items on that bill and he is preparing his excuse in advance.

This right here. No one, absolutely no one would pay $60 for a sandwich and a drink without double checking. If it was $20-$25 then you're in the right ballpark as far as price. As said above, this feels like an alibi set-up.

He said he just wanted to be home with me

Remember actions, not words. He says one thing but does something different. I don't blame you one bit for being furious.

Get the receipt from the business

You can trust that receipt came from the restaurant because you got it

Then you can determine if he’s being sincere

Don’t play those stupid Wayward games

It’s like they dare us not to believe them

Ok, we don’t