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General :
Bedroom issues


 FairyTaleGone (original poster member #79059) posted at 4:30 PM on Tuesday, October 12th, 2021

I’m not really sure where to put this, so I’m going with General. Please move it if it should go somewhere else.

WH and I have always had an amazing sex life. Right before his A, it was incredible. Hell, even during the A it was amazing (I obviously didn’t know the extent of the A, or it wouldn’t have happened). We went through some HB in the beginning of False R (before I knew it was a PA) and that was great, too!

WH experienced some issues with his POS AP, and couldn’t keep it up during their escapades. She even sent him info on ED. This had NEVER happened with us. Never had a problem getting or maintaining an erection with me ever.

Fast forward to June when I find out the extent of his affair, and that they were physical. All of a sudden this issue pops up for us. And now it’s happening a lot. It doesn’t matter who initiates, or how amazing and hot it is, he just can’t keep it going.

He is devastated and feels terrible. I am devastated and scared that the "fun" affair sex has killed my sex life because I’ll never be able to live up to it. He swears that couldn’t be further from the truth and that it has nothing to do with me. I just don’t know what to do.

Has anyone experienced this before? ED caused by the affair? Could it be him manifesting his guilt or something?

[This message edited by FairyTaleGone at 4:32 PM, Tuesday, October 12th]

DDay 1 - 2/19/21 (found out about EA)
DDay 2 - 5/22/21 (TT found burner phone)
DDay 3 - 6/9/21 (TT found out about PA)

EA/PA ended 3/22/21 -WH went NC
Working on R
13yr old DD at home - unfortunately knows way too much

posts: 57   ·   registered: Jul. 2nd, 2021
id 8692805

13YearsR ( member #58259) posted at 4:34 PM on Tuesday, October 12th, 2021

My H says that he had a hard time maintaining an erection with the OW. I think it was due to guilt. At home, after DDay, if things got weird emotionally, he'd fizzle.

It could be emotional or it could be physical. How old is your H? Has he started any new medications?

The truth will set you free, but first it will piss you off. ~ Gloria Steinem

The grass is greener on the other side of the fence because you're not over there messing it up.

DDay 2004. Successful R. 33 years married

posts: 547   ·   registered: Apr. 13th, 2017   ·   location: TX
id 8692806

 FairyTaleGone (original poster member #79059) posted at 4:36 PM on Tuesday, October 12th, 2021

He’s 36, and in really good health. No medications or anything. I know he is so very down on himself right now, so I’m sure that is definitely a factor.

DDay 1 - 2/19/21 (found out about EA)
DDay 2 - 5/22/21 (TT found burner phone)
DDay 3 - 6/9/21 (TT found out about PA)

EA/PA ended 3/22/21 -WH went NC
Working on R
13yr old DD at home - unfortunately knows way too much

posts: 57   ·   registered: Jul. 2nd, 2021
id 8692807

nekonamida ( member #42956) posted at 4:45 PM on Tuesday, October 12th, 2021

Does he have an IC he can talk to about this?

posts: 5011   ·   registered: Mar. 31st, 2014   ·   location: United States
id 8692809

PSTI ( member #53103) posted at 5:15 PM on Tuesday, October 12th, 2021

If he's that young, normally it's mental issues. But it's about HIS issues, not yours. Trust me, it's not that you "can't live up to" the fun sex. Guys can get it up for bad sex, for quickies, and in a good cross breeze.

What it means is that he's getting stuck in his head somewhere along the line, and that's not usually about conscious thought. It's stuff going on in the background- often guilt and shame, but it could be other feelings.

Think about it- men are so tied up in their "manhood" and how maintaining an erection is part of their masculinity (which is in itself crazy unhealthy in my opinion), it's not something that turns off just because they're not getting peak sex (and please don't misunderstand- I'm not saying that's the problem. I'm saying even if you were right and you're not having incredible sex, it still wouldn't kill his erection)!

I mean, you could probably force a way through it with Viagra, but that means ignoring the real issue.

Is he in IC? If this doesn't resolve after a reasonable period of time, you might want to try a sex therapist. It can be hard for men even to talk about this sort of thing, or think about it, due to that social stigma.

Me: BW, my xH left me & DS after a 14 year marriage for the AP in 2014.

Happily remarried and in an open/polyamorous relationship. DH (married 3 years) & DBF (dating 2 years). Cohabitating happily all together!! <3

posts: 710   ·   registered: May. 6th, 2016
id 8692814

This0is0Fine ( member #72277) posted at 6:11 PM on Tuesday, October 12th, 2021

It's almost certainly guilt manifesting itself.

Love is not a measure of capacity for pain you are willing to endure for your partner.

posts: 1386   ·   registered: Dec. 11th, 2019
id 8692824

BluerThanBlue ( member #74855) posted at 12:18 AM on Wednesday, October 13th, 2021

I don’t think it’s guilt; I think it’s classic performance anxiety.

With his AP, he was probably worried about being able to live up to the fantasy they had cultivated, which is also challenging because their ability to get together privately was limited.

With you, he had always felt secure and adored, even in the immediate aftermath of D-Day. More recently, you’ve been a lot more assertive about what you expect from him in order to stay married so that security is gone, as it should be. Even if he’s not entirely conscious of it, he feels like there is a lot more on the line if he doesn’t make you happy.

BW, age 40
Divorced WH in 2015; now happily remarried to a great guy

I edit my comments a lot for spelling, grammar, typos, etc.

posts: 490   ·   registered: Jul. 13th, 2020
id 8692865

marriageredux959 ( member #69375) posted at 2:05 AM on Wednesday, October 13th, 2021

I/we have extensive experience with this issue/topic. Maybe I can help.


It is/was unrelated and then only tangentially referenced Husband's infidelity. Husband's infidelity occurred approximately 10 years earlier, when everything was functioning normally.

Some basic background:

Husband is and was in excellent physical health: weight appropriate, runner, regular exercise, lifelong non-smoker, no diabetes, no hypertension, no drugs, light alcohol use. In other words, not a set up, nothing pointing to an oncoming issue.

My husband first experienced ED in his mid to late 30s. Out of nowhere. I now suspect that the onset was earlier and more gradual. I was not living in his skin, so I'm sure that there was information that I did not have, symptoms and clues of which I was not aware. He was likely aware, but assigning those clues and symptoms to anything but a physical issue. He was a very healthy young man.

The initial onset of which I was aware, and with which we both dealt, was random and sporadic and appeared to be associated with nothing whatsoever.

My husband did have a very demanding job and a workaholic personality to go along with it, so of course, we both initially assigned the random and sporadic ED to stress. Except it didn't exactly line up.

Like you, we'd had an excellent and regular sex life until this hit out of nowhere. When his equipment cooperated, our sex life continued to be excellent, until it wasn't.

Once equipment failure occurs more than a handful of times, it starts to mess with everybody's head, his and yours.

My husband did consult his internist, who like a fucking dunderhead (or not, maybe this was a legit question) went straight to, "Well, maybe you're no longer attracted to your wife." Thanks, Doc. =/ My husband assured his internist that he was still attracted to his wife, and wanted very much to have that healthy sex life back, with his wife. The internist sent him to a therapist- a routine run of the mill therapist, not a sex therapist nor a marriage therapist.

The therapist went straight for the standard catch all: depression/anxiety. She had the internist prescribe antidepressants. My husband may be the only man in the history of antidepressants to achieve a temporary sexual 'bump' from antidepressants. Our sex life resumed somewhat, for a short period of time. We had hope, which quickly faded.

Looking back, it is more than obvious now that the antidepressants gave marginal, temporary relief only because they numbed Husband to the ever increasing stress load and work load at his job, which was increasing exponentially. (We also realized almost too late for us that this was now Standard Operating Procedure. As long as he kept showing up, yesterday's crisis, emergency, balls out mitigation became today's way of doing business.)

Anyway, the antidepressants aided Husband in dealing with increasing workload and stress, which of course absorbed so much of his life that 'work life balance' and 'time off' and even 'free time' and simple fucking 'after work' became a joke. He was *always* 'at work,' 'on the clock,' and 'plugged in.' Always, even if he was at home, he wasn't at home.

And the antidepressants killed off any vestiges of libido.

He didn't even miss it anymore. =( =(

I'd offered my husband every kind of equitable, trouble free split, if lack of interest in me was the issue. He insisted that it was not.

I can readily say that I had absolutely no suspicion, nor reason for suspicion of infidelity during this period, despite long hours at work and no sexual interest at home. I know that sounds strange and unrealistic, but there was just nothing there- no suspicion, no suspicious activity, nothing.

Husband was adamant that he didn't want a divorce.

I didn't want a divorce either.

We settled into a long period of marital celibacy.

At first it *really* fucked with my head. I mean, *really* fucked with my head. I was a young, healthy, attractive woman with a normal libido. Life was passing me by. But, I did and I do love my husband, and I really didn't want to dismantle my and our entire life over sex. I eventually got to a place of peace with living inside the notion that at least we weren't dealing with the ED and its psychological and emotional ramifications. I was no longer torturing myself about whether or not I was attractive to him, and we both weren't torturing him with continuing to put him in positions of failure.

We just, dropped it entirely.

To give you a timeline and some context:

First experiences with ED were in our mid to late 30s.

By late 30s, we were having random but recurrent ED issues.

By early 40s, ED was a consistent problem.

We struggled through our 40s.

By the time we turned 50, our sex life was non-existent.

Life eventually reached a crescendo.


His damned job reached a crescendo and very nearly crashed what was left of our lives. It was never going to change- unless it got worse, which it consistently did.

It was fucking *insane,* I am not even kidding.

Why did we put up with that for so long???

One of the true tells was that Husband's internist had increased his antidepressant Rx dosage at least twice, and it was looking like a third increase was pending, and the internist was starting to raise his eyebrows.

Husband was this weird combination of OVER IT and still, not wanting to throw in the towel.

But this could NOT go on.

We started working on the exit strategy.

And as we started to do that, it sort of shook me out of my own stupor. The process of planning for the next stage of life made me think about what I actually wanted out of life.

I decided that *I really missed sex* and that *I wanted sex,* and that was normal and OK. What wasn't OK? THE LIFE THAT WE WERE LIVING. NOT NORMAL. NOT OK. (But I'm betting that it's a shat ton more common than we all discuss.)

Anyway, I became much more demanding and advocating for a full marriage or I was out.

Husband approached internist about the ED issue again, this time pointing out that he'd done counseling, and he'd done antidepressants, and his libido and his actual dick were deader than dead.


Instead of farming this very specific issue out to a specialist, internist attempted to treat it in house, himself, with topical testosterone gel and an absolutely miserly prescription for Cialis. Like, 10 pills per Rx. Ten. 10. LIKE, WHAT??? WE MIGHT GO CRAZY AND HAVE TOO MUCH SEX???

But, my husband was trying, he was extending in this area. He was bonded with this internist and he was under enough stress with work without me demanding that he uproot his entire medical infrastructure as well.

At about two years in, with life and hair on fire work still ongoing, I realized that the topical testosterone was producing zilch zero nada nothing.

I once again pushed and pushed hard- and this time I started doing my own research. I also pulled all of Husband's medical records and lab results and started charting, literally charting his blood testosterone levels since he started using the topical testosterone. There was no real improvement in his testosterone levels over time, which was supported by the lack of sex at home.

I read everything I could get my hands/eyes on: clinical information, scholarly papers, medical journals and articles, forum/message boards, works aimed at consumers and lay persons, everything.

I soon learned that topicals don't always work. There are many, many variables, including basic body chemistry, skin type/absorbency, etc. etc.

For the guys for whom it works, it works.

For the guys for whom it does not work, it does not work.

My husband's lab results and his absence of function supported this.

I got up in the internist's face, through Husband (the dr./patient relationship was still between the two of them) and demanded answers and some alternative treatment.

This was a few years ago, and treatments for ED were *just beginning* to be advertised widely in the mainstream media.

Internist responded by digging in his heels. HE was the dr. here!


Unrelated, it was approximately in *this* time frame that DDay2 dropped.

I boomeranged right back into self doubts and "Maybe you're just not attracted to your wife" territory.

My marbles scattered across the floor big time.

And we were still dealing with that insane fucking job and now an internist who was being a stubborn ass.

I damned near lost it.

I put myself in therapy, briefly, just to get by. It was that bad. =(

Internist proposed *a very, very conservative* incremental increase in the very same topical testosterone gel! and still with the miserly Cialis Rx. He was proposing these tiny incremental increases of the exact medication that *clearly wasn't working,* accompanied by an equally miserly testing schedule. He wasn't even going to test for increasing testosterone levels for MONTHS.

In the meantime, he did another lab test for blood testosterone levels.

When the results came back, Husband and I were stunned:

My healthy husband was in his 50s, and he had a blood testosterone level LOWER than that of A 94 YEAR OLD MAN. How much lower? To what age did my husband's blood testosterone level correlate? WE DON'T KNOW. EVERY CHART WE COULD FIND STOPPED AT TESTOSTERONE LEVELS HIGHER THAN HUSBAND'S TESTOSTERONE LEVEL. The chart that came the closest to my husband's testosterone level stopped at age 94- and Husband's testosterone level was LOWER THAN THAT VALUE.

To say that I was *DONE* with Dr. Internist was an understatement.

By this point I was up to my ears in information so it was a relatively easy jump for me to find a urologist or three in a local, well established group, who deal with this specific area of practice. I made the appointments for Husband myself.

We then learned that one of the complications of topical testosterone, when there are absorption/bioavailability problems, is that the body can absorb, process and register just enough testosterone supplementation to shut down or limit the body's own production, but there's not enough bioavailability with the topical testosterone to make a difference in functional testosterone levels. One can end up with a further drop in blood testosterone levels, which, obviously, Husband experienced. =( =(

The urologist stopped ALL testosterone treatments for a few weeks to allow Husband to get down to a baseline testosterone reading, which, not surprisingly, was shockingly low.

We had all records transferred to the urologist, and we also gave him the blood level charting that I'd done of timeline vs. topical testosterone dosage vs. blood testosterone levels. The urologist specifically complimented me for taking the initiative, and asked to keep the chart as part of Husband's medical record. It gives a succinct visual of history, treatment and response prior to the urologist taking over care.

Within a few weeks, Husband was on a regimen of subcutaneous testosterone injections that he administers himself at home. He gives himself one injection a week. He also has a generous and quite affordable Rx for generic Viagra.

The injectable testosterone is far, far less expensive than the topical steroid.

It worked almost immediately.

I mean, it *works.*

And the effects are not limited to Husband's dick functioning, nor even just to his libido. His overall feeling of well-being and energy and attitude improved significantly and almost immediately.

Husband was still working at that crazy assed job, and had in fact given his notice, when this injectable testosterone regimen began.

Husband actually stopped ALL antidepressant therapy (under medical supervision by same internist) and was completely free of antidepressants, while getting to the finish line with that stressful job, which of course became even *more* stressful once he gave his notice.

And we were in the 3 year time frame post DDay2 while all of this was going on.

Husband negotiated this territory completely free of antidepressants. It wasn't perfect but honestly he often held it together better than I did.

We are both now convinced that the problem was low testosterone all along, from his mid 30s on.

No idea why the initial drop in testosterone.




Per above, it wasn't a matter of poor physical condition nor of underlying or contributing disease processes.

As far as the generic Viagra goes,

well, it's Viagra. :) :)

Husband's equipment works just fine, that's not an issue, but years of coping with mishandled ED leaves its own psychological and emotional scars.

Husband is a healthy man who has no mitigating risk factors for using Viagra.

If it gives him that little extra bit of confidence and 'insurance' that 'things' will work, peace. We both enjoy it. :) :)

We are in our early 60s.

Our sex life is easily what it was in our early 30s, before all of these problems and issues hit us.

One thing I discovered during my initial reading and research, when it became obvious that the 'help' we were receiving at the time was inadequate, is that infidelity is often an unfortunate side effect of ED issues. =( =(

It probably seems a given that partners of those struggling with the onset of ED might stray for various reasons.

Surprisingly, men suffering from the onset of ED often stray, in a misguided attempt to figure out, consciously or semi-consciously or even unconsciously, why their junk is no longer working as expected.

It may not be as clear of a thought process as, 'Maybe strange will work...' or it could be. Or something in between.

TL;DR: ED and testosterone issues can and do occur in younger men.

IMHO, it's worth consultation and testing.

NOTE: blood hormone levels can be notoriously fickle. A single test is a snapshot in time. It may not give an accurate overall picture. If one test is 'normal' but Mr. Happy is still a Sad Sausage, and the weather between you is OK enough, GET ANOTHER TEST, OR THREE.

In my own personal situation, I hit menopause in my late 40s, about age 48 or 49. My gyn dr, whom I personally chose out of our community because of her depth of experience and education, took a blood hormone test at my annual appointment and declared me NOT IN MENOPAUSE. NOT EVEN PERIMENOPAUSAL.


We went on like this for another year or two.

*Finally,* after the third blood test, she called me at home.


So yeah, two of my three blood tests showed 'normal' hormone levels for my age- *at that precise moment.* My physical symptoms told the tale and the third blood test confirmed it.



[This message edited by marriageredux959 at 5:41 AM, Wednesday, October 13th]

I was once a June bride.
I am now a June phoenix.
The phoenix is more powerful.
The Bride is Dead.
Long Live The Phoenix.

posts: 491   ·   registered: Jan. 9th, 2019
id 8692876

Notaboringwife ( member #74302) posted at 3:04 AM on Wednesday, October 13th, 2021

ED caused by the affair?

My husband was 64-65 years old during his affair. His AP was 67-68 years old. Please forgive me for what you're about to read: but they were like two old goats at it.

He admitted to lots of ED with her and to using Viagra. It did help apparently.

For him, it was primarily performance anxiousness, with minor guilty feelings.

We are two plus years into reconciliation, no viagra, and maybe three episodes of ED...he did admit to feeling guilt during those episodes so that he could not function. I believed him.

So far we are in sync. smile but for how long, who knows? Maybe viagra will again play a role....

It's your road & yours alone. Others may walk it with you, but no one can walk it for you.Though nobody can go back and make a new beginning... you can start over and make a new ending.

posts: 220   ·   registered: Apr. 24th, 2020
id 8692882

Cooley2here ( member #62939) posted at 4:39 AM on Wednesday, October 13th, 2021

I cannot stress enough about stress. It will go after you until your body caves. Marriageredux I read the sad tale of a know-it-all internist who nearly ruined your marriage and robbed you of years of marriage sex. Unbelievable!
I spent one year in a job that was so stressful I lost feelings in my face, hands and feet. I cried every day going to work. Then I developed a boatload of symptoms that have hung on for years. I am on a first name basis with several doctors. THE BODY KEEPS THE SCORE is must reading for anyone dealing with stress.
One thing I have learned is that doctors are all too human and come to their practices with their own biases. Learn to say NO. Learn to ask questions until you get answers. Learn to doctor shop until you trust the completely.
And yes testosterone is the sex hormone. Women have it but a smaller amount. Some ED is stress, nerves, fear but, as the above poster wrote, it can be shut down by stress.
Good luck. And don’t give up. This is your one life and sex with your spouse is necessary and fun. It bonds you to each other.

To thine own self be true. Shakespeare

posts: 2945   ·   registered: Mar. 5th, 2018   ·   location: US
id 8692895

sisoon ( Guide #31240) posted at 4:53 PM on Wednesday, October 13th, 2021

At 36, I bet performance anxiety is a likely cause. Failing a couple of times for any reason - and guilt could have started this - can make a person fear that failure will attend the next attempt. His problem, and he ha sto solve it. You can help by enjoying what he can do and asking for what you want.

I was on Cialis in the years before d-day. I was in my early 60s. After d-day, more sex, much less Cialis. Strange.

Insurance plans governed a lot of the use of Cialis, which were very expensive before the patent ran out. IIRC, a Canadian judge ruled that it didn't even deserve a patent, but in the US we ere stuck. Insurance plans decreed twice a week was enough sex, so 9 or even 8 pills/month were all that insurance plans would approve. A doc couldn't even prescribe more with insurance paying only for 8 or 9. In my plan, I had to check with the fucking plan before the doc wrote a prescription, because the magic number changed from time to time.

fBH (me) - on d-day: 66, Married 43, together 45, same sex ap
DDay - 12/22/2010
Recover'd and R'ed
You don't have to like your boundaries. You just have to set and enforce them.

posts: 26130   ·   registered: Feb. 18th, 2011   ·   location: Illinois
id 8692938

 FairyTaleGone (original poster member #79059) posted at 4:59 PM on Wednesday, October 13th, 2021

Thank you everyone for your much to think about. While I'm not happy that anyone has to go through this, it is so nice to know that it isn't just us.

Does he have an IC he can talk to about this?

He is in IC, I'm hoping that this is something he will talk about there. I know its such an emasculating thing for him. I hope he lets it all out.

What it means is that he's getting stuck in his head somewhere along the line, and that's not usually about conscious thought. It's stuff going on in the background- often guilt and shame, but it could be other feelings.

THIS! We went for it monday night and things fell flat. He was crushed and actually opened up to me then about how scared he is about me leaving and how horrible he feels about hurting me and our family. WH has always been the kind of guy that was always "fine" no matter what. He stuffed every feeling down and never faced them. He has always had the "walls" built up. Part of my requirements for R is that he tear those walls down and face his feelings and he is trying so damn hard to do that. He just seems defeated and so low. I'm sure that is a big factor.

He mentioned Viagra, but I suggested that we wait it out for a bit to see if him working through his emotions and actually processing all of this will help first.

With you, he had always felt secure and adored, even in the immediate aftermath of D-Day. More recently, you’ve been a lot more assertive about what you expect from him in order to stay married so that security is gone, as it should be. Even if he’s not entirely conscious of it, he feels like there is a lot more on the line if he doesn’t make you happy.

I was reading responses last night before bed, and I actually talked to him about this. He was already opening up a little bit and I asked him if he feels like his "safety/stability" was gone from our relationship. And he said yes. He said that he is worried constantly that now that I have seen him at his absolute worst, and he has done the worst thing to me, that I will realize that he isn't worthy of my love and I will leave. I've never seen him like this, sad, scared and lost.

marriageredux959 - Thank you so much for telling your story! I'm sorry for the struggle that you all went through, and that the jerk dr tried to blame it on not being attracted to you mad that is just so damn wrong... but I am so happy that you were such an advocate for your hubby and you finally figured out what was going on and found a solution!

WH has struggled with depression and anxiety for a while. He has tried anti-depressants to no avail. And he all but refused to take them once they started affecting his libido. A lot of the things you wrote resonated with me. He is stressed at work (started a new position that he loves, but its so much pressure), he has struggled with depression and now the affair and the ED problem. I think getting his levels tested would be smart. It isn't something I would have really thought of because he is so young. Thank you!

Notaboringwife - I am trying my best to just believe the words he is saying, that is has nothing to do with his desire for me, or my ability in bed. He swears everything that has to do with me is perfect, but its just so hard to not take on those things myself. I'm hoping that this is something that is just short-lived, and it doesn't become a huge problem.

THE BODY KEEPS THE SCORE is must reading for anyone dealing with stress.

Cooley - I think I really need to read this book...for myself and to give to WH when I'm finished. This whole infidelity situation has really opened my eyes to how much the mind/body connection affects so many parts of our life. I know that seems so obvious, but everything is tied together. I know stress, shame, guilt and remorse are all a factor here, but I never really thought about the effect it might be having on his hormones.

[This message edited by FairyTaleGone at 5:02 PM, Wednesday, October 13th]

DDay 1 - 2/19/21 (found out about EA)
DDay 2 - 5/22/21 (TT found burner phone)
DDay 3 - 6/9/21 (TT found out about PA)

EA/PA ended 3/22/21 -WH went NC
Working on R
13yr old DD at home - unfortunately knows way too much

posts: 57   ·   registered: Jul. 2nd, 2021
id 8692940

marriageredux959 ( member #69375) posted at 12:37 AM on Thursday, October 14th, 2021

Thank you for the kind words, Cooley2here and fairytalegone. We are both happy to be on the other side of this issue now, with a good resolution.

I understand why many people replying on this thread steer away from a physical explanation/cause for ED in men in their 30s. I am a strong believer in Occam's Razor- the simplest and most direct answer is usually the correct answer. When you hear hoofbeats, look for horses, not zebras. Common things are common.

The thing is, zebras do exist.

Hickam's Dictum, the counterargument to Occam's Razor, states that "A man can have as many diseases as he damned well pleases." This can also be stated as "A man can have *any* disease that he damned well pleases."

ED is actually quite common.

The Cleveland Clinic states that approximately 40% of men are affected at age 40, and nearly 70% of men are affected at age 70.

Personally, I'm very happy that discussion about this issue is much more open and public than it was in the past, and that help is widely available to men and their partners. I'm thrilled that solutions exist.

I was once a June bride.
I am now a June phoenix.
The phoenix is more powerful.
The Bride is Dead.
Long Live The Phoenix.

posts: 491   ·   registered: Jan. 9th, 2019
id 8693063
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