SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Mr. F, I want to clarify further. I'm not saying that you should look at your WW and assume the worst right now. I just question why you seem very open to the narrative that she's simply some poor, dumb, clueless WS fumbling around and yet dismissive to some of the evidence you have that contradicts that. Perhaps it's because D is still on the table and R is unlikely so you don't really feel the need to overanalyze everything she does. But that doesn't mean it isn't still useful for you to remain more detached and skeptical.

I think it's interesting that when you defend your WW, it's parroting back words she's said. "Well, she SAYS she loves me but yes she also was cheating on me while loving me." "Yes, she sometimes says things that prove that she doesn't get it all and some times she says exactly what I want to hear from a remorseful spouse." "Well, she SAYS she's being honest now but I did just catch her in a pretty big lie the other day." See? Actions vs words. They're not lining up very well.

I see your WW as a duck. She's cool and collected floating there on the gentle waves. But underneath the water she is furiously paddling. It's only now, as the polygraph approaches, do we suddenly see her start to sweat. Looking for promises of R and re-assurance if she passes - what happened to doing this for you and for your sake knowing full well that D was happening and R probably wasn't? Bringing up the possibility of failing out of nervousness - why wasn't that a concern when you spoke to the administrator about it? That's the form it's taking. I still think it's too soon to tell whether it's normal anxiety for her or if this is the start of her cracking and failing to uphold the lie any longer. All I know is when I see a WS pass without a single confession, they don't look like a sweating duck. They look like an otter calmly floating on their backs.

Brace yourself and prepare for either outcome.

I don't know if it's even possible but she told me multiple times during our talks that she never stopped loving me, not even during her A.

I think it's not possible.

You know famous saying; "I love you but I'm not in love with you."

That might be her case at best. When she is in love with you, she couldn't go and have an A with someone else. That wouldn't even cross her mind. I don't want to appear sexist, but the affaires women go through are more emotional. It's more common for them to feel something for their APs or lack of feeling for their BSs.

Probably her love doesn't mean being in love, but it's possible that it means she doesn't hate you, values you, cares about you etc. These may be true, but even the degree of these doesn't seem to be enough. We avoid behaviors that harm people we don't hate, value and care about. She didn't even mind that. Not just you, your kids as well.

Did the fact that she saw that she was losing all this makes her remember how much she fell in love with you and how much she valued her family, i really don't have any idea.

I though about telling her she was there (i didn't know), but there is nothing to tell, really. But maybe I will, who knows.

If there were other people too, I guess it wouldn't be a problem for you to tell, but I'm sure it would be a problem for her to hear that.

You can tell it not in a "I have something to tell you" style, but as a trivial detail among other things you will tell.

I though about telling her she was there (i didn't know), but there is nothing to tell, really. But maybe I will, who knows.

I think intent matters. And intent isn't just about the woman your friends set you up with, it's also about your STBXW. What is your intent toward her? Is this a straight-up divorce at this point with the intent being to go your separate ways? Or is the possibility of R still on the table? Be careful not to become the thing you hate, right? You essentially had a date with this other woman, no different than if you'd walked into a bar with a few friends and spent your time there in rapt conversation with a stranger. It might not have been planned on your part, but it happened. So, the litmus test would be... if it would NOT be okay for your STBXW to get into that exact same situation without telling you, than it's not okay for you to do it either. If this is straight-up divorce and you're not trying to hold onto your STBX, then whatever... no holds barred, right? But if she thinks you still have some kind of understanding between you, I think you'd do well to straighten out her expectations.

You essentially had a date with this other woman, no different than if you'd walked into a bar with a few friends and spent your time there in rapt conversation with a stranger. It might not have been planned on your part, but it happened.

NOPE.

It's very difficult for some posters to not show more concern for a female cheater than a male betrayed spouse.

It is what it is.

The error Chamomile Tea keeps making is that she is judging you and your wife's actions by the same standard. Like you are on equal footing from a moral standpoint. But you are not a cheater and a liar, and your wife is a cheater and a liar.

You were not in "rapt conversation", so forget that loaded term deisgned to make you look like a bad guy. "Rapt" is more like what your wife was doing when she was texting the other man.

It sounds to me like you spilled your guts a little bit. Because you are all fucked up due to your wife's shitty behavior.

You're a human. You are not perfect, not that you did anything wrong. Some posters want to judge betrayed spouses so much more strictly - when the betrayed are men - than the way they judge cheaters - who are women.

I think I recall this same poster saying you should have expected to be lied to further after your wife swore she was telling the truth. And if you didn't want to put in the work while your lying wife continued to lie, then well, she was better off without you.

***

YOU DID NOT GO ON A DATE WITH THIS WOMAN - at least not as you described it.

A "Date" is when two people make a plan to meet with each other with the "intent" or perhaps just the "hope" of exploring a relationship further.

This does not even meet the definition of a "blind date" which is when two people who don't know each other plan to meet.

Also, you are divorcing your wife. You've made that clear. I am not sure why that is unclear to some other people. Maybe they think your wife is driving that train.

You met this woman amongst your friends. They want to set you up because they consider your wife to be a liar and unworthy of your love.

You spoke to this woman in the context of the impending divorce of your cheating and lying wife who has made it so she needs to take a polygraph because she is just that untrustworthy.

And you let this woman know that you are not on the market now, and probably won't be for a while.

THAT IS NOT A DATE AND YOU HAVE DONE NOTHING WRONG!

***

BUT LET'S BE "FAIR"

If a year ago your wife had met her affair-partner sleazeball at some group work lunch, and her work friends friends where trying to set her up with him (making them sleaze as well because they would be sabotaging a marriage not anticipating an impending divorce) and she talked to him, and said, sorry, it isn't happening buddy, then: A) It wasn't a date, and B) She didn't cheat on you, and C) She should say something to you because she was in a "happy marriage", not an impending divorce, but even if she didn't she still did not cheat on you!

You might not be happy about this hypothetical situation that your wife handled (you shouldn't be) but in this scenario your wife would have handled it decently.

if it would NOT be okay for your STBXW to get into that exact same situation without telling you, than it's not okay for you to do it either.

This is utter bullshit as well.

You and your wife cannot be judged by the same standard nor should you be operating by the same rules. At least not for a loooooong time. Perhaps you both adhere to the same ultimate rule, of "no relationships while still married", but not the same standard of day-to-day accountability and acceptable situations to be in.

THIS IS NOT A MALE VS. FEMALE THING!! This is a faithful person vs. cheater thing.

And this will probably hold true if you decide to attempt to reconcile.

If you feel you want to hold yourself to the same requirements as your cheating and lying wife during this limbo period prior to the polygraph or if you decide to attempt to reconcile, then that is your prerogative.

BUT!!

You have shown you can be around women and not sext, talk dirty to them, grope and be groped by them, penetrate them digitally, try to fuck them, or send them dick pics.

Your wife on the other hand, has gotten dirty in a car, been over to that scuzzy shitheel's home in secret, and sent "partially clothed" pics (as far as she admits).

What this means is that she can and should be held to a standard of proving she is not fucking around by keeping you apprised of what she is doing or where she is, or that she must not be alone around another man, or she no longer can go out drinking with her girlfriends, etc.

While on the other hand, because you are a person who has proven to be loyal and honest, you may not need to "check in", or keep your GPS on, or you may be able to grab a few beers with your buddies - maybe even with a woman in the vicinity!

Yes, it is an imbalance. And it sucks big-time.

The real question is not about what you and your wife "are allowed to do" right now. The question is can you live like that going forward?

The error Chamomile Tea keeps making is that she is judging you and your wife's actions by the same standard.

It might be an "error" in your book, but whatever judgments I make are made based on the standards I expect from myself. I believe in treating other people the way I, myself, would like to be treated. The Golden Rule. It's a point of honor for me that I uphold the same standard of treatment I expect from others. So I don't have two different rule books, one for me and one for everyone else. Maybe you can live your life shady like that, but some of us are blessed with a conscience.

I think you should have your wife do the blood test for any drugs in her system. What do you have to lose by doing so?

She’s proven herself untrustworthy, and while you doubt she’d try to game the lie detector test, she didn’t think twice about torpedoing your marriage and sneaking around behind your back.

She’s already dancing around the idea that she might fail due to “nervousness” like she’s prepping you for it to happen.

It might be an "error" in your book, but whatever judgments I make are made based on the standards I expect from myself. I believe in treating other people the way I, myself, would like to be treated. The Golden Rule. It's a point of honor for me that I uphold the same standard of treatment I expect from others. So I don't have two different rule books, one for me and one for everyone else. Maybe you can live your life shady like that, but some of us are blessed with a conscience.

Some of us are blessed with common sense and some of us are not!

Like, for example, someone with common sense would know that a man who sat in a bar with a woman who he did not bring to that bar, and told her he is not going to enter a relationship with her now, and won't even be on the market for a while after he divorces his lying and cheating wife did not do anything "shady".

It might be an "error" in your book, but whatever judgments I make are made based on the standards I expect from myself. I believe in treating other people the way I, myself, would like to be treated. The Golden Rule. It's a point of honor for me that I uphold the same standard of treatment I expect from others.

You lack self-awareness to the extent that it is laughable. I've seen you take shots at, dump on, and insult people plenty of times. But tell me more about your golden rule. (But seriously, please don't tell me more)

At this point I find you to be trolling on this thread with your constant criticism of a man who has conducted himself with honor and shown his cheating wife kindness and understanding that she has squandered.

[This message edited by faithfulman at 8:12 PM, April 17th (Saturday)]

Like, for example, someone with common sense would know that a man who sat in a bar with a woman who he did not bring to that bar, and told her he is not going to enter a relationship with her now, and won't even be on the market for a while after he divorces his lying and cheating wife did not do anything "shady".

I didn't want to make this a whole thing given what's happened in this thread before but I'd like to add my 2 cents that this is exactly how I read Mr. F's account of the situation. He couldn't call or text to let her down easy because he probably didn't want to open up a line of communication. I'd hardly call opening up about your current and ongoing messy divorce and how unavailable your are "date" worthy even if it was a stranger but to each their own.

At this point I find you to be trolling on this thread with your constant criticism of a man who has conducted himself with honor and shown his cheating wife kindness and understanding that she has squandered.

That's a bold-faced LIE. There has been no "constant criticism" of the OP. Like any other thread I participate in, my goal is to help the OP achieve their own goals and to help foster healing when possible.

Just because I don't agree with you and with your assessment of this particular story doesn't make me a "troll". I still think this family could be saved.

That's a bold-faced LIE. There has been no "constant criticism" of the OP.

BEGIN THREADJACK

Sure, you never said anything about if Mr Flibble "Loved his wife enough then he would..."

The only bold-faced lie is that you believe in the golden rule.

I recall a thread where a woman discovered her husband cheating, then drove her automobile over his bike, destroying it.

You uttered not a word of disapproval with regard to this action as you interacted with this poster.

And then later on in the thread the same female poster stated:

Lost my absolute s6)8 last night. Ripped up our last mutual wh, ow, and my race shirts. Started a small cut it the fabric with cuticle scissors and then ripped it to shreds with my bare hands. Then went after every race shirt he shared with her. He thought I was coming after him with cuticle scissors and restrained me with his hands.

Your response:

It sounds to me like you found a constructive way to let some rage out. Some triggering objects got destroyed and found their way to the garbage can where they belong.

Laying it out plainly, you had no problem with - and you even gave your approval!! - of angry and violent behavior when it came from a female betrayed spouse, but you have a lot to say when a male betrayed spouse who has behaved himself better than just about anyone, dares to speak with a woman and tell her there is no relationship in the cards for them at this time or in the near future.

And it is not hard to find more examples of your double-standard when it comes to men and women. Not hard at all.

Chamomile Tea: Please do me a favor and don't lecture me on "The Golden Rule" ever again.

***

Just because I don't agree with you and with your assessment of this particular story doesn't make me a "troll". I still think this family could be saved.

My assessment is Mr Flibble's wife is a liar and a cheater and he needs the truth to make a decision on how to proceed with his life.

You disagree with that assessment? Oh that's right, you do! He should "expect her to lie".

What is quoted above is exactly why betrayed spouses are warned away from marriage counselors, both professional ones, and wannabe ones like you.

The problem is not whether Mr. Flibble can save his family. The problem is his lying and cheating wife.

END THREADJACK

My apologies to Mr. Flibble for this exchange.

[This message edited by faithfulman at 11:53 PM, April 17th (Saturday)]

Also, I met with my friends today. Had a few beers and learned all the new gossipe there is going around.

I also met the girl my friends are trying to set me up with. She knows my situation and I let her know that even though we are divorcing I feel like all this with my STBXW is not resolved and probably will not be in a foreseeable future. She was very nice about it, we spoke for an hour (or more like I rambled) and when I was leaving she asked for my number. I do not plan on taking this any further, but it was nice talking to her

Mr. Flibble,

Could you clear a few things up here?

Were you aware before you arrived that the woman that your friends want to set you up with would be there?

Did you give her your number?

I appreciate your help, tremendously. No matter if you are pro D or pro R so please do not refrain from posting.

I have trouble sleeping, I woke up every night around 3 am and I started going for a swim. I learned it helps to clear my head and helps me to sleep after.

CT, I have no idea where did you get a notion it was a date. There were 7 other people, I didn't know she will be there and I made it clear I was not interested in any kind of relationship. It was nice talking to her, but that´s it. I gave her my number, but I jokingly asked her "but you have it already, right?" and she said yes. Maybe it was a mistake but she hasn't texted me yet and I do not plan on contacting her.

I will answer your questions later, I have a lot on my hands right now.

FLAMING & SHAMING: Please refrain from attacking or shaming, publicly or by using the SI.com Private Message feature. Do not bait or call out others. This includes members and non-members.

Stop the infighting people.

Maybe it was a mistake but she hasn't texted me yet and I do not plan on contacting her.

Just as your WW still believes that R is still firmly on the table, this woman still thinks of you and her in a budding or at least potiential relationship. One of the mantras of SI are actions not words.

You tell your WW that you are done, yet your actions towards her are those of someone who really cares. You tell this woman that you're not ready for a relationship yet spend the evening talking with her and offer her your number. Neither of those things are necessarily bad on your part, but you shouldn't be surprised if the women in your life base their actions on your actions rather than words.

When people are seeing mixed signals they tend to choose one or the other. The optimists will go with what they desire. The pessimists or ones with deep seated insecurities will choose the worst.

[This message edited by grubs at 9:36 AM, April 18th (Sunday)]

Mr. F, I want to clarify further. I'm not saying that you should look at your WW and assume the worst right now. I just question why you seem very open to the narrative that she's simply some poor, dumb, clueless WS fumbling around and yet dismissive to some of the evidence you have that contradicts that. Perhaps it's because D is still on the table and R is unlikely so you don't really feel the need to overanalyze everything she does. But that doesn't mean it isn't still useful for you to remain more detached and skeptical.

Good question. I have read the saying "When people show you who they are, belive them", but I have trouble using this saying when it comes to my W. She has been my life partner, my best friend and the person I trusted the most in this world for 13 years. That's a long time. She was always there for me, gave me a helping hand and no matter how cheesy it sounds, she made a better person, showed me a way and if I told you my success (professional and person) is just my own doing I would be lying. I have read a few stories here and there, and quite often there is a history of abuse, lies and whatnot. We simply do not have that in our marriage history. We have always been great, we are (or were) THAT couple. That's why this hurts like bitch.

Maybe I really sound like this, but I never said my wife was an innocent victim, helplessly fallen to a predator. She knew very well what she was doing. But do I believe she was thinking straight in those few months? I wouldn't say so. She said it herself and I was there, I saw that she was not acting like the person I married and my best friend. She was different. But that doesn't mean it lessens her guilt. Everything that happened happened because she failed me as my wife. It's that simple, she failed. Me, our kids, our parent, and even herself. Do I belive she regrets everything and wishes she would say no like she did a thousand times before? Absolutely. Is it possible to go back? Unfortunately not. So what options do we have? Non other than held our heads up and deal with consequence. Consequences I didn't ask for nor wanted. But here we are.

[This message edited by MrFlibble at 2:52 PM, April 18th (Sunday)]

You tell your WW that you are done, yet your actions towards her are those of someone who really cares. You tell this woman that you're not ready for a relationship yet spend the evening talking with her and offer her your number. Neither of those things are necessarily bad on your part, but you shouldn't be surprised if the women in your life base their actions on your actions rather than words.

Yes, I realize that. But thank you for pointing this out. I belive it is at least partly caused by all kinds of struggles between my head and my heart. I know that most of this neck deep moat we are in at the moment is because I can't send a clear signal. I know that.

Were you aware before you arrived that the woman that your friends want to set you up with would be there?

I wasn't. She's a friend of a friend

Did you give her your number?

I did when she asked. But she already had it, so I guess she asked out of a courtesy. When I look back at it, I probably shouldn't have. But I made it clear I am not available and she hasn't contacted me since. I also have no social media, so it's pretty hard to find and contact me.

[This message edited by MrFlibble at 3:03 PM, April 18th (Sunday)]

Just support yourself, children and WW through this.

There is a Shit show going on and all need support.

I always say communication is key.

You are doing well

One day at a time.

MrFlibble, I understand fully about what you say about life partner. That is what I thought I had for 25 years. We had struggles and difficult periods in out marriage but, IMO, it got better and better with time. Our 25th anniversary was special and celebrated. I believe my XWW felt the same. We were the envy of many.

Then it wasn't. Hard to comprehend. A faith organization dedicated to strengthening marriages and family who I won't name said that spouses who have a joint difficult goal, a partnership to achieve, were strong and durable. We had one. We were on the cusp of achieving it.

Like you said, my success, professionally and personally, was a joint effort. I took on challenges I wouldn't have without her support and backing and just that, with her, I felt capable. She was very successful with her work after getting back into the work force and I fully supported and encouraged her.

Did it matter? Apparently not. The potential to betray was internal in them. All the charge needed was the spark. Opportunity, desire, never get caught, Bingo. They were very aware of what they were doing.

She gave me what I hope is all remaining Xanax pills and agrees on a blood test on the day of the polygraph. She had a little speech prepared, all the same story of how sorry she is, everything is her fault, she can't belive we are at a point where I feel like I need to subject her to a polygraph, she's so sorry for everything she has done to me and so on. It was very emotional and I felt like a dick just sitting there not saying anything. But what was there to say? I just asked her what outcome she expected when she decided having an affair was a good idea. No answer for that. No GOOD answer I mean. She didn't think apparently. I think she just didn't think she will be caught. What the hell does this affair fog do to people? She has two university degrees, she's the smartest person I know, yet she DIDN'T THINK. How stupid that sounds? Unbelievable. I can't wrap my head around it.