SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I had and still have a hard time identifying as an abuse victim, because I feel like other people have endured worse.

HHDL, keep reminding yourself that it's not a competition. Cancer survivors aren't saying, "Well, it was only skin cancer so it barely counts." It was abuse and abuse is abuse is abuse.

I too have experienced sexual assault. I don't want to go into detail but let's just say there were pleas to stop, tears, blood, and pain for some time afterwards. But because it was by someone I was dating at the time, I didn't even recognize it as assault right away. Having said that, I still think that infidelity and all of the emotional abuse that often comes with it was worse. It was harder to process. In some ways, there was more mind fuckery involved TO process especially when it came to realizations about little things that didn't even strike me as odd or bad when they happened. It was some times hard to talk about because on paper, it didn't look like my XWBF was really doing anything bad but in context, it was harmful. I can point to the sexual assault and correctly identify that as terrible with ease and I have a wealth of resources if I need them to handle that. Infidelity is not like that at all given how a loud and proud part of society thinks there's nothing wrong with it and the way people look at you when you talk about being traumatized by it.

You're absolutely right neko! It's not a competition. My IC reminds me frequently to talk to myself as if I were one of my daughters and they were coming to me with the same issue. I would NEVER dismiss them or their feelings, so why dismiss myself?

In some of my darker days early on I remember telling my IC that I wish he had just hit me, because maybe then people would believe me. Triggers, crying fits out of nowhere, insomnia, nightmares - those were just me being "too emotional" and I needed to "get over it." But maybe a black eye and a few bruises would convince them.

There are a lot of things that happen that are so small, that taken as a single event, they seem negligible, and if you reacted to them at all, outsiders would think you were overreacting. But all of those little micro aggressions add up, and in fact they compound into something much bigger than the sum of their parts.

I've been recalling this memory lately, that doesn't even directly relate to his specific abusive behaviors, but kind of relates to this idea of tiny things adding up over time.

We were at my parents' house with our daughters and all 3 of my brothers. 3 of us - my XH, our younger daughter, and I - were tossing a football in the backyard, while the others sat on the lounge chairs nearby and we were all talking with each other. I was in the middle of saying something to one of my brothers, my head clearly turned to speak to him, and not making eye contact in any way with my XH, but my XH threw the ball anyway and it hit me square in the nose. I blew up and screamed "What the fuck! I wasn't looking, why would you throw it at me?!" tossed the ball back at him and went in the house in a huff, all while my Dad and brothers are trying to calm me down saying stuff like "It's ok, it was an accident, he just didn't notice."

Now, to them, as people who only saw us maybe once a month or so, I was overreacting. But what they didn't know, was that this was a pattern of behavior. I had been hit, hard, by a ball to my face or arm on multiple occasions. The same had happened to both of our daughters on separate occasions. He always claimed that he "didn't know we weren't looking," and would run up and try to comfort us and calm us down so we wouldn't be upset, all the while laughing at how accurate he was. I tried to give him the benefit of the doubt, and had numerous conversations with him where I said if someone isn't making direct eye contact with you, then they aren't looking, and you shouldn't throw the ball. And yet, he still hit us.

He had also hit all 3 of us on other occasions, when our backs were turned, or we were on the other side of the yard or park, so not even engaging in a game of catch at all. His excuse then was that he "didn't think he would hit us." To which I questioned "Then what the fuck were you doing throwing the ball in the first place?"

He had a crazy accuracy with thrown objects, and had even hit birds and squirrels when tossing rocks, always claiming it was an "accident." And I will say, it certainly looked like it was an accident, in that he looked very nonchalant while doing it, he wasn't spending a ton of time aiming or anything. BUT, even if that is the case, and you weren't actively trying to hit someone or something, wouldn't you notice how scarily accurate you are and stop throwing things?

I don't know exactly how many times it happened, but enough that it became a noticeable pattern. I really picked up on how intentional it seemed when he killed a seagull midair when he chucked a rock at it. I have a really hard time believing that wasn't intentional since the seagull was mid-flight and therefore a moving target.

Anyway, the point of all of that being that anyone else who hadn't witnessed all of those other instances of him hitting things with a ball or rock, would have no frame of reference for how fucked up that particular instance was. And how my reaction of cussing at him was actually appropriate in that context, or at the very least a "normal" or expected reaction to repeated, abusive micro-aggressions.

I honestly don't know why that particular memory has been coming up a lot lately, but it flashes through my brain at least a couple of times a week. Maybe it has something to do with that "Oh shit!" moment of being hit in the face, and how that's really a metaphor for what he did to my life.

"

Oh shit!" moment of being hit in the face, and how that's really a metaphor for what he did to my life.

Ya maybe. Kinda is a metaphor for sure. What a weird side thing to do...throwing objects.

I have an experience with sexual assault as well. My spouse doesn’t even know, I remember only minor glimpses of details as I was a child. Sometimes I wonder why I don’t throw it in his face when he uses his child abuse as an ongoing reason for every mistake he makes. His abuse was ongoing and more traumatic and the extent of hiding it over the years to save other family members from the pain is also traumatic.

We had an argument tonight about separation details, finances, etc. It led to him asking if there is a chance of reconciliation. I explained why I felt I couldn’t reconcile mentioning all the infidelities and the pain. He immediately became the victim saying he was abused as a child. I rolled my eyes and he became angry. Then I kinda lost it. I said we have never ever been able to talk about my feelings, pain or experience . Every time we do, he becomes the victim and then he accuses me of verbally abusing him over the years. I explained that being angry at him for his emotional abuse and infidelities is not verbal abuse. I then walked over to him and asked him to look at me. I said really look at me, see me, see my pain for once, even for a minute. He looks at me. I say: What do you see?

Am I the same woman you met years ago?

No I’m not. I’m depressed and suicidal. I can barely make it through the day. The whole day I’m in anguish feeling deep emotional pain. The only people who make me feel better are my dying cancer patients. I see their strength and tell myself I can get through this. This is me now. I’m not okay. If I treated you the way you have treated me I wouldn’t even be able to do this, to look at you in the eye. I’m sick of being invisible, you need to see me for once and what this has done to me. I then acknowledge his child abuse, apologize that it happened to him, told him it breaks my heart but I didn’t do it to him. I can no longer suffer the consequences of it. I told him, I’m not trying to be mean, I’m not denying your pain or need for help. I’m not trying to shame you or embarrass you. All I’m doing is choosing me and my mental health now. In doing so, I can’t be with you right now. Get help and talk to me in a year, maybe. Right now, I can’t take one more betrayal or I will hang myself.

He said sorry, he didn’t mean to do any of this and promised he wouldn’t hurt me again after seeing this (my emotional monologue) but I said yes you will and that’s a risk I can’t mentally afford to take right now. That was the end of the conversation for now. I went to bed and cried for a few minutes...which for someone normally unable to cry, that was a good start.

That was how I felt, that is how I feel. I’m suicidal in my heart but not in my mind.

[This message edited by Somber at 9:26 PM, February 17th (Wednesday)]

Somber,

I'm so sorry to hear your pain, but I also want to commend you for speaking your truth and holding your boundary!

One of the benefits about being separated is that when my WH visits, if he goes into victim mode, I tell him to leave. I find that victim stance to be one of the most triggering things, and I won't be a party to it.

HHDL,

The throwing anecdotes are disturbing. He seems to have a lot of rage.

I do still believe that this is a form of rape, or at the very least, fraud. Similar to when someone is too intoxicated to consent. In our cases, it's taking something by deceit that would not otherwise be offered. There have been cases regarding this, rape by deceit is the term I believe that was used.

It's even more egregious because it's the person who is supposed to protect and love us, who's deceiving us in the most painful and abusive ways.

HADL The ball incidents are horrible - it's a covert form of abuse. Clearly, this human gets some sadistic pleasure from causing pain. That he did it in front of other people was a double treat for him - causing you pain and making you look like a hysteric. I'm so sorry you had to experience this.

He said sorry, he didn’t mean to do any of this and promised he wouldn’t hurt me again after seeing this (my emotional monologue) but I said yes you will and that’s a risk I can’t mentally afford to take right now.

That's wise. Most will harm us again and again. I've realized my ex doesn't fully buy that I'm as harmed as I am. Some of them just don't have the empathy or bandwidth to include their partner's pain in their decision making.

I said we have never ever been able to talk about my feelings, pain or experience . Every time we do, he becomes the victim and then he accuses me of verbally abusing him over the years. I explained that being angry at him for his emotional abuse and infidelities is not verbal abuse.

Yep.

Well, my XH is digging in and doubling down on his delusions.

A few days ago he email multiple times for very thin and unnecessary reasons - complete NC for maybe 2-3 weeks was getting to him I guess. Then he sent an email detailing how he was willing to take me back if I changed and apologized for all the ways I'd traumatized him because he can't stop loving me. Apparently, I didn't make him feel safe, or like a full partner (this is about wanting to be put on the deeds to my real estate) and the times I threatened to leave his ass when I first caught wind of him acting inappropriately with other women.

He also declared he would no longer allow me to shame him about sex - uh, never happened and we haven't had a convo about his acting out in an eternity. Plus, we are divorced and I'm NC. A lot of other falsehoods sprinkled in.

I'm not sure if he believes this stuff or if he was sure it would provoke a reply - I won't ever know as I'm not engaging.

At any rate, it's scary that after all of this time his take on the obliteration of our marriage because of his betrayals and emotional abuse has gotten more distorted.

Skeetermooch

Good for you for not engaging. I need to practice that because I would have flipped out. NC is definitely the way to go but I have a hard time not losing my mind when I hear ridiculous things come flying out of his face and into the air where I can hear them. What’s your secret? Practice makes perfect? Maybe I’m just a slow learner.

My secret is getting tired of feeling like crap after every time I re-engage with him. I just can't do it to myself anymore.

At any rate, it's scary that after all of this time his take on the obliteration of our marriage because of his betrayals and emotional abuse has gotten more distorted.

What is it with these types my STBX does the same thing always has to bring the blame back to me. It’s tiring and maddening. Makes me wish I never met him as he has made my life a living hell and still trying to even when we aren’t together.

Oh yes the whole DARVO tactic where we become the offender and them only the victim. Mentally exhausting to process it all and convince them of our own truths. I don’t think they are well enough to see it through our eyes. The pain it would cause them to see the damage done would be added shame further fueling their disordered ways to avoid it.

Anyone here in Sanon groups? SAlifine groups? Are they all online? It seems most zooms originate from the US.

The little Canadian here, in my winter wonderland with lots of snow, is wondering how much that would rack up my cell phone bill to use zoom meetings??

Additionally, any good podcasts I can listen too? Trying to force myself to walk and heal and like to listen to podcasts

Thx

[This message edited by Somber at 12:24 PM, February 19th (Friday)]

Somber

I find Vicky Tidwell Palmer's podcasts pretty good.

The SALifeline meeting this Saturday is a topic study on healthy anger. PM me for the password for anyone interested in attending.

[This message edited by BlackRaven at 7:12 PM, February 19th (Friday)]

stayorgo2021

I just noticed that Dr. Jill Manning has a free digital download on her website called "Seven Characteristics to Look for in a Betrayal Trauma Therapist or Coach"

I don't know what it says because I haven't read it, but Dr. Manning is well respected. We can't post links here but the website address is just her "title,name and dot com" and it's on the 2nd page under 'shop'

2 1/2 months later and still living in a limbo state. Neither one of us is willing to leave the house.

SAWH still only attending weekly SA meetings and no other concessions. When we do talk about what happened, I find that I end up feeling hurt by his reactions, the questions he asks and rebuttals he makes.

I do not feel strong enough to engage in a legal battle just yet, nor can I afford one without leaving me broke. I am not sure being in the same house as him and being "separated" will work. If we do that, I am sure he will continue to act out and I feel that is just going to leave me worse off.

I find myself grieving for the loss of my marriage, the loss of the sex life I wanted to rebuild (issues from previous abuse), and the loss of any security I thought I had. I don't think I cried this much when both of my parents passed away.

I try very hard to have a positive attitude, but I just need a break from all of this addiction, recovery, self-awareness stuff. It is overwhelming my life and I find I cannot relax unless I am doing something that is going to get me further along on my journey.

I wish my parents were still around so that I could go and visit for an extended period. Now that it is just me, with no other family, I no longer have that luxury.If sometimes feel more trapped than ever.

I hate every minute of this and I am going to work hard so that I do not ever end up in a relationship with another addict again (this is my 3rd marriage to an addict - alcoholic/alcoholic-drug/sex).

Does it ever get to a point where it is not exhausting?

Does it ever get to a point where it is not exhausting?

HITW, I haven't done IHS so I don't know how long it might take under those circumstances to get to where it isn't exhausting and I totally get not being ready to launch a legal battle or make any big decisions.

I find myself grieving for the loss of my marriage, the loss of the sex life I wanted to rebuild (issues from previous abuse), and the loss of any security I thought I had. I don't think I cried this much when both of my parents passed away.

Same. I did live with my XWS for about 4 months post dday1 and I cried continually also. Same during false R. Having them around is a constant reminder of what we've lost.

I try very hard to have a positive attitude, but I just need a break from all of this addiction, recovery, self-awareness stuff. It is overwhelming my life and I find I cannot relax unless I am doing something that is going to get me further along on my journey.

I don't remember all of your story but I think dday is relatively recent. It definitely takes some time to get on your feet. Some things that have helped me are self-care - I started seeing a personal trainer. The physical strength helped with my mental strength. And because it wasn't cheap I went even though I was barely able to get out of bed to shower most days. I also began buying clothes I liked, not the ones I thought would make my XH find me attractive - comfortable flannels, baggier pants, flat shoes. I felt like I was reclaiming my body and making choices that felt good for me and me alone. It was also a small act of rebellion against pick me dancing for the person who had emotionally devastated me.

Perhaps you can brainstorm some boundaries around how much processing time/arguing/rehashing time you can give him and how much is healthy to engage in with yourself. Work towards a healthy routine for yourself - show up for you. Whether that's making the bed, showering, meditating, reading for pleasure or getting out in nature...

Does it ever get to a point where it is not exhausting?

Yes when you are finally able to leave. I am surprisingly no longer "exhausted." There is no more chaos in my life and no more wondering if he will ever change.

I did IHS for 1 year and this is after already being in limbo for years. It was complete hell on earth, but it constantly reinforced why I needed to leave. My STBX got worse during IHS and I became more broken because of it. I had a constant feeling that I wouldn't make it out alive. Literally felt like I was fighting to save my life.

(((Holeinthewall))) make sure you take time out in your day for some self care and a break. Take weekend trips to a hotel to get away for a few days. I like to take walks to clear my mind and also meditation.

I wish my parents were still around so that I could go and visit for an extended period. Now that it is just me, with no other family, I no longer have that luxury.If sometimes feel more trapped than ever.

HITW, this really resonated with me. I wish so often these days that my mother was still alive. I could use a hug and some unconditional love that just is. And it feels to me like Covid magnifies the trapped nature of our situations.

I don't know how many people you've told about your situation, but I did tell a few friends and relatives, and pretty much all of them invited me to come visit.

My hope this summer is that I'll take my little camper and do a few trips; remind myself that many decades ago I used to be a fearless, self-sufficient adventurer, long before the responsibility of husband and child made me the practical one.

Do any of you ladies know about the Chris D’Elia scandal?

For those who don’t know, he’s a comedian, and several months ago a bunch of texts and emails were leaked by girls/women who were claiming he was grooming them for sex.

There was a lot of back and forth on whether or not the events were consensual or not, especially since some of the girls were underage when contact was initiated, but it seemed like he never actually slept with anyone underage? And from what I saw he asked their ages, so he’s technically, legally, on the right side of consent, or so it seems (though the ick factor of being a 30+ yr old man even attracted to minors is huge, but that’s a whole different issue).

I don’t know, the consent issue notwithstanding, I’m having a hard time with his most recent statement via his podcast/YouTube channel. Not even as much with what he said. He seems to be taking ownership as much as you might expect someone who is only a few months into this to do. With of course some excuses coming out too, though I do think he tried his best to call himself on it as those excuses came out.

It’s pretty obvious that even though he’s not using the words “sex addict” that that’s what he’s hinting at. His description of it all being out of control fits well with that too.

So my issue isn’t even with the content of his statement, as he’s doing about as well as I would expect a recovering SA to do at this point. And he could be lying through his teeth, since we all know that’s a common thing with people in the beginning stages of recovery, but it’s not my job to determine if he’s lying or not.

My issue is with myself, and what seems like this magnetism I have for people like this, the master manipulators and secret keepers.

I can spot the classical douchebag narcissist comedian from a mile away. I live in LA, I feel like half of the dudes I’ve met here have been trying to start a stand up career at some point or another, and the douchey frat boy/fuck boy mentality is easy to spot. I avoid them like the plague. If I’m in a situation where I don’t have to interact and I can observe, I laugh to myself at how painfully obvious they are.

However, I didn’t spot it with him. I had my initial reservations, as I do with all male comedians, but I thought I had mentally vetted him, and he’s someone whose stand up I have enjoyed in the past. I’ve listened to interviews with him, and thought to myself, wow, he’s not as douchey as I would expect him to be given that he’s from the LA comedy scene. A ham, and in need of attention, sure, but that’s most comics. But a womanizing asshole? No, I didn’t call that one.

So I’m kinda mad at myself. Maybe mad isn’t the right word. Frustrated? Disappointed? Confused? For someone who is really fucking good at reading people - like every close friend I’ve had in my life relies on me for my human lie detector type of radar for people - how do I always seem to miss this when it comes to addicts, but sex addicts specifically?

Is it that sex addiction is the one truly hidden addiction? Like there’s nothing to smell on your breath, your pupils aren’t dilated, they’re “using” people, not substances. It’s easier to hide because you don’t come home smelling like smoke or booze, and sex in general - unless you’re an exhibitionist - is something done in private, and rarely discussed outside of your own intimate relationships.

I don’t know. It’s just something that has been bugging me today. I know I’m not a mind reader. And it’s not my job to suss out every potential sex addict in the population. It’s not like we were dating and I didn’t see it, he’s just a guy whose comedy I have enjoyed on occasion.

But damn, even if it’s just through consumption of their comedy or art or whatever, I seem to be drawn to problematic men. Why is that?

And of course I feel so much empathy for the pain his fiancée must be in right now. They just had a baby together, and I can imagine how difficult this all has been. And to find out about it in such a public way, as well as to face such public scrutiny all while raising a child and trying to navigate the trauma of a DDay, I can’t imagine.

Yet I also find myself totally sympathetic to him and what he is going through as he has discovered how problematic his behavior is, how he was trying to fix an internal problem with external stuff, and how that never works. I could see him tearing up at some points, and I would be lying if I said that didn’t get to me a little. It reminds me of some of the painful disclosures my XH made, and how even though it was very painful for me, I also recognized how painful it was for him to admit to as well. I could feel the shame he felt deep down in my bones and it hurt me to know how much he hated himself, and how low he would go to keep proving to himself how terrible he was. I remember us both on our knees sobbing, and I was begging him to love himself, that if he loved himself the way I loved him, he wouldn’t feel the need to do any of this.

I dunno, maybe I’ve got a beacon for these types. I’m assigned to work with men like that at work a lot too - not that I know about their sex lives, but just generally over bearing or manipulative or difficult people. And I’ve always been able to maintain good, professional relationships with them, even when they are problematic personalities that have caused conflict with other women. I think because I’m really good at setting boundaries and letting them know from the get go that none of their bullshit is going to fly with me. If they say something off color I shut it down immediately and let them know in no uncertain terms that their bad behavior won’t get them anywhere with me. So I’ve got a reputation as a kind of ball buster, and this lends itself to people assigning the “difficult” people to me. Am I just destined to be an asshole-whisperer?

I know I’m good at it, but damn. Am I ever going to fix my picker?

Is it that sex addiction is the one truly hidden addiction? Like there’s nothing to smell on your breath, your pupils aren’t dilated, they’re “using” people, not substances. It’s easier to hide because you don’t come home smelling like smoke or booze, and sex in general - unless you’re an exhibitionist - is something done in private, and rarely discussed outside of your own intimate relationships.

HHDL

My answer to that is yes, though my SAWH was also a drug addict and I didn't see it, but I wasn't looking for it, so what did I know? The infidelity was something on my radar since I'd been burned by a bf previously, but I still didn't see it. When you're screwing someone literally in the office, how is the person at home supposed to know?

It sounds like this triggered you. I've been triggered by the Tiger Woods accident, and I don't golf! All the articles are about his physical well being - will he be able to play again. But nothing about his mental health. Here's a known SA who has gone to rehab for that and twice for drug addictions and yet they didn't test him. ....

So this accident at 7 a.m., driving high? Driving home after a hookup? Or just the general addict self-destructive behavior and speeding?

I feel for his kids, for his gf, his BS, and for him, since he had so much going for him and still couldn't avoid the ghosts. There are so many people who can't afford rehab, or addiction coaches, etc etc. And yet he still keeps imploding.

[This message edited by BlackRaven at 6:10 PM, February 24th (Wednesday)]

I agree too, it's just something that much easier to hide. Mine was a drug addict also. I saw the drug addiction when it began because it's apparently really hard to hide a crack addiction, but I never had a clue about the cheating and that went on before and for much longer. My XWH was into prostitutes, so there wasn't any fake love thing to keep going in our home time. He could go have sex with someone during lunch or after work or when he was supposed to be working and come home without having to call or text another woman. Apparently that is super easy to hide. Even easier if you can convince yourself that it's nothing more significant than getting a burger in a drive-thru. And listen, a primary goal of an addict is to protect the addiction. They become very good at that because that's a survival skill for them. An addict has to do that to survive and keep any sort of life, so a lot of effort goes into it and sometimes they're successful at it for a long while. Being too obviously impaired is how addicts who use substances generally get busted. Take that aspect away and it's much easier to keep faking for a lot longer. That is especially the case for one who has been in recovery before and has been taught how he's supposed to act to appear like a decent human being.

I don't think appreciating anyone's art but not realizing that they have issues is anything wrong with you either. I'm sure I have songs I absolutely love that are written by grown men who had sex with teenagers back in the day. Lots of art of all kinds is created by very flawed people. No doubt I've appreciated art painted by rapists. I've appreciated the acting of some pretty awful human beings. And yes, I think Louie CK is a comedic genius. Not a dude I'd want to be alone in a room with, but an absolutely fantastic comic. Appreciating someone's art while not knowing that they suck as a human being isn't a case of you being a fool.

[This message edited by DevastatedDee at 8:52 AM, February 25th (Thursday)]

Agree with Dee here: Appreciating someone's art while not knowing that they suck as a human being isn't a case of you being a fool.

But, on the other hand, I gotta say that I'm finding it alot harder to separate the artist from his work now that these guys seem to be being outed one after another. Had the same thoughts about Tiger in last few days. And also recently Woody Allen. Loved many of his movies back in the day. But recently just read reviews of HBO doc coming out re the alleged abuse within his family. Almost immediately decided I wouldn't see the documentary and even, perhaps, not watch his movies again. Thought back about how one of my favorites of his, "Manhattan," featured his ongoing relationship with a 17 year old girl. And of course he married the much much younger adopted daughter of his then wife. I find I'm not so sanguine about stuff like that any more. Mostly now I just see him as another "dirty old man." Ditto Bill Cosby - whose old show I loved. As a society I'm feeling like we have so much more work to do regarding male/female roles/relationships and sexuality.