Newest Member: Loyalandbetrayed

Just Found Out :
WS has no idea I know

Topic is Sleeping.
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Buffer ( Member #71664) posted at 2:25 AM on Saturday, September 5th, 2020

Well done, the step forward out of infidelity. The silence will be deafening but, that will change.

Hopefully she will keep to the boundaries you both have set prior to her moving out.

Now, the AP GF, time to let her know her man sleeps with clients. You don’t need your WW’s permission for this.

Start or continue to exercise, eat healthy and drink water.

Now let C and her new partners know that her actions have led to the separation. Specifically let C’s partners know of her actions, if she would do that to her friends marriage what does that say about her thought process for her own relationship.

Are the children with you or WW?

They are the innocent parties here, please look after their best interest. If possible in the separation agreement with WW, no new boyfriend sleep overs or introductions when she has your children. Well until the D is done.

I feel your WW will start breaking the silence soon, be it for R or once she has spoken with a lawyer; to get back in the home. This may because of abandonment views by the courts.

One day at a time.

Keep posting here.

[This message edited by Buffer at 8:27 PM, September 4th (Friday)]

Buffer

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paboy ( Member #59482) posted at 4:11 AM on Saturday, September 5th, 2020

Congratulations on the way you handled things.

To some people, Infidelity is a deal breaker. They know that from the very start, and it is the only way that they find peace moving forward.

For others, reconciliation is there only way forward and it is what they pursue.

Those who are able to make a quick determinate decision, are the minority. In infidelity, you normally need to let your emotions subside first, so that you choose wisely the best scenario for you.

If you reconcile, it can take up to 5 years for you to get over it. Although, it lingers in the background.

If you divorce, there is also a length of time, to get over the betrayal. And it also leaves an imprint.

Some find it more rewarding to divorce, some to reconcile.

You now get to make 'your' choice.

We will help, what ever you decide.

[This message edited by paboy at 10:14 PM, September 4th (Friday)]

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 freefaller (original poster New Member #75304) posted at 8:44 AM on Saturday, September 5th, 2020

I've had some time to think and consider, and I'd like to give you all an update. It had it's ups and downs, and the

incident trying to contact AP GF nearly caused me to laugh, it was so ridiculous. This is how it went down:

Thursday (the day before)

* I asked if she was busy tomorrow evening or Saturday, and she said she was not - no plans at all.

* I told her I had a surprise for her tomorrow, and to keep the time clear. Her reaction was to say "That's bizarre",

but then backtracked and said she was "excited". She wanted me to give her a clue as to what it was.

* No clues

Morning

* Happy husband face on

* Get up and read some bits on SI (I get up early and can't sleep anyhow, so I have a lot of time here). Couldn't post

anything as I couldn't organise my thoughts into decent questions or statements, but reading helped reiterate core

ideas and I was able to reassure myself and solidify my plan further (Thank you!).

* sort the girls out, getting them ready for school

* Shower / organise myself

* Took the girls to school

* WS had arranged for us to view a house together, which we did a little after I dropped the girls off.

* WS had a day of business admin booked in with her business partner, and went to a cafe after I drove us home. This was

arranged previously, and was expected.

Afternoon / Evening

* WS arrived home from her work and collected me so that we could go get the girls

* Collected the girls from school

* Got the girls changed out of their uniforms and ready to go

* Feigned not knowing where my car key was, and took hers because I was already late. I was then able to take the car

key back, securing the transport I'd need for getting the kids and myself about (The car is mine, she just had a key,

and I didn't want to tip her off that I was taking it off her)

* I took our girls to my parents house, and arranged for them to stay the night at least

* During the time that I was out of the house, I tried to contact AP GF, but she'd just left the job that I had the

number for, so I asked them to pass a message to her to call me. I said something like "I need to speak to you [AP GF]

it's incredibly time sensitive. Call me back ASAP. It's regarding [AP]" They passed the message on.

* I came back and WS had gone to bed for a nap, so I went to see her. She knew I had been to therapy the day before so I

said that I'd like to have a chat about it, now that I'd had some time to think

* WS came down and I started the recorders. I recorded the whole thing on video and audio (two devices)

* She got a cup of tea and we sat down at the table

* I asked her if she loved me - WS: Yes, of course!

* I asked her if she loved our marriage - WS: It's the best thing I've ever done, and I'm so happy!

* I asked her if she loved the home that we'd built for ourselves and our family - WS: We've done so well, and I'm so

happy. I love everything we have.

* I took my happy dad face off, and shifted to detached and calm.

* I asked her to "Tell me about [AP]"

Confrontation

* She said he was the guy he'd done some work experience with and occasionally text for advice

* It repeated the question, adding that I want to know the specifics of their relationship, and she just kept saying

either "he's an advisor, and has helped me learn the business" and "I don't know what you want me to say"

* This was the most frustrating part. Going around in circles. I could see it wasn't going anywhere, so I asked when the

last time she saw him was.

* Bear in mind she has already told me that she saw him last Friday.

* She said she'd last seen him September of last year.

* A asked if she was sure. WS: Yes

* Me: What about Friday? WS: Oh, oh, yeah, I saw him briefly then!

* This went on and on. Circles of lies and trickle truthing. It took two and a half hours of me asking specific

questions and referring to an excerpt of the evidence that I had created in order to spot her lies before I managed to

get some semblance of and accounting from her. It was maybe 50% accurate at best, but it did include the fact that

they had met up and had sex, she had been exchanging pictures and flirting and that C had been enabling.

* I'm proud that I never lost patience, and I deflected any blame shifting. I explained what I knew to be true when I

needed to, and never revealed my sources. I never showed her the evidence.

* At points (especially getting details of them having sex), she would try to use softer words. I had her write down

what she'd done with dates, locations and details. She's start by writing something like "Slept together", but I

insisted she explain herself correctly. I told her that she needed to write that they fucked, and she met me in the

middle with "Had sex". She could barely say the words, and was visibly uncomfortable writing them.

* I had her write down details of everything she told me about on paper. Nothing of note was just spoken.

* Late on in this process (maybe an hour and a half in), I got a call from a number I didn't recognise. I answerd and it

was AP! He said "Hi, I've been asked to call this number as you have a message for me?". I said "No, I need to speak

to [AP GF]. It's a personal matter, and I cannot talk to anyone else. Can you ask her to call me please?". AP: "Sure,

no worries.". We hung up, and I assumed that part of the operation was blown. Annoying.

Consequences

* I explained that the marriage is dead. Gone, and lost.

* I told her I did not trust her whatsoever and that I had no idea as to who she was

* I explained that this was traumatizing and humiliating, and that she had destroyed our family

* I said that this was going to take years of my time for me to get past, and that she owned it completely.

* I told her that we are getting divorced, and that I have begun the process already.

* I explained that the girls will be allocated to the most appropriate household

* I explained that the house will be sold, possessions divided and I'll move on.

* I then gave her some time to think, and went to make some calls to my support network.

Reaction

* During the time I was making my calls, she wrote a letter. It was apologies, and some blame shifting, but

counterbalanced with 'I know that's not an excuse' (why write it then?) as well as a lot of self-deprecation (I'm a

piece of shit, awful person and unfit mother).

* There appeared to be some bits that others have mentioned in the threads "I'll absolutely do not want divorce" "I

don't want to lose you and the home we've built" and even "I'll do anything to save us".

* Now, this is super raw at this point, so there is a massive pinch of salt being taken with everything I read. However,

I decided to run with the boundaries.

A Quick Sidetrack

* In the middle of this, my phone rang again, and this time it was AP GF.

* I asked her if she was with AP, and she said she was alone, having just finished work.

* I told her about the affair.

* AP and APGF had been together for 6 years, and are in the middle of buying a house.

* She thanked me, and I wished her luck. I referred her here for support, though not sure if she heard that as she

sounded pretty shocked.

Getting to Boundaries

* I told her I don't give a shit if she's sorry. I don't care of her assessment of herself, and I do not accept any

blame or blame shifting. Everything about this situation rests on her shoulders.

* I said I'm ready to move on, and as of now, we *are* getting divorced as quickly as possible.

* I told her that I was still in shock, and am trying to process things, but from my standpoint, all she's brought to

the relationship is destruction, and I need to disentangle myself and the kids from what she's done.

* I asked her about "Doing anthing to save us" - to explain to me in concrete steps what she meant. I gave her time.

* She suggested councelling (both individual and marriage).

* She said she'd only go to work and come back home and that's all. (I think she was implying she'd become some weird

recluse or something, but I expect her real meaning was that she'd not see anyone else)

* I think her mind was racing and she was struggling to form sentences at this point so I stepped in.

* I said "We're getting divorced. That's it. I want to take some more time to consider how best to do that, but right

now I'm going to get it actioned as soon as possible." "It's probably a good idea for me to take more time so I can

think about things more, but if that's to happen, then I need to do that without you risking my security or position"

"I am going to give you a list of boundaries that must be followed completely."

The Boundaries

* NC with AP

* NC with anyone not a friend of our marriage (C)

* An honest, open and committed relatinoship. No secrets

* Therapy for WS

* No privacy for WS (phone access, computer, diaries, location etc...)

* I will send her a book to buy and read (suggested earlier in this topic)

* WS tells her business partner and close friends about what she's done

* WS pays costs I've incurred so far (Minimal but not zero)

Putting Words Into Action

* Having explained the boundaries, I said that these were for now, and are subject to change, based on her actions.

* She wrote both NC messages (the one to C was significantly longer) and sent them.

* I asked her if she had any other accounts that I should know about. Any secret accounts with any services. She said

she did not. I asked her again if she was sure. Anything - Tinder? She said she didn't, but you could see she was

shrinking a bit. It's as if she could not acknowledge the truth.

* I asked her for her phone, and she gave it to me. I went to the tinder website, and selected "log in by phone".

* She stood behind me. I asked her "Are you sure you have no account". She looked uncomfortable, and mumbled something

to the effect that she did not. I started to enter her phone number, and she tried to grab the phone out of my hand. I

just held it tighter, and she gave up.

* I told her that she had agreed to give me access to her phone, and if that too was a lie, then all of this (the

boundaries) is pointless. She relented, and let me continue.

* I submitted her number and got the access code, and typed it in. Before I submitted it to log in, I asked her "Is this

going to be bad?" and she said "No, I don't use it"

* Logged in, and no messages, but one match. She had used a pseudonym, and a photo of her from earlier this year.

* I asked when she set this up, and she said "sometime around May"

* I explained that she'd just broken the boundaries we had *just set* not ten minutes ago. I asked her what she thought

of that. TBH, I think she was still unravelling, and she said that understands that she cannot be trusted, and doesn't

know herself. She said she didn;t understand what she was doing.

* She apologised, and there were more words along the lines of being ashamed, not knowing herself and so on. It started

to look like we'd got to the limit of the day, so I asked her to go and pack an overnight bag.

Wrapping Up

* At this point it was time for WS to leave. She sat and cried a little. This was the first time she had cried, having

just sat looking shocked and worried up to this point. I ignored the tears, and told her that she will be taken to her

parents house shortly, and she needs to get her stuff together.

* She got a bag together and sat down again. She asked if she could sleep in the house or even in the car, and I said

no. It's not safe for me to let you stay here.

* I called her brother and explained the situation. I said she'd be coming down and told him about what she's done. I

asked him to tell their mother.

* I called my friend, and he came and picked her up.

* I was finally alone in the house, and posted that quick update last night.

So here I am. I just phoned her to check up on whether she'd had contact from any of the NC messages, and she hadn't . I

told her to immediately send screenshots, which she did. She says she's writing me a long message, so I'm going to try

to get some food, and mybe go for a run.

I'm completely lost on next steps. What does one do? Should I meet her today, get space from her? Do something else? I

think I'm tired from the week, but I don't really want to just sleep or something. Maybe I'll mow the grass...

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DictumVeritas ( Member #74087) posted at 9:09 AM on Saturday, September 5th, 2020

freefaller,

You have handled the confrontation extremely well and you are miles ahead of most people who find themselves in your shoes.

My apologies, I have some family responsibilities, therefore this is going to be concise.

You have done what you must, her next actions will tell you if she is a candidate for R or if you should just let the D process run it's coarse. I would not initiate contact today were I you.

Yes, keep your hands busy, mow that lawn, chop down that tree (if you have one you can chop down), anything to keep your hands mind and body busy.

Look after yourself. Eat healthy, hydrate. I know this seems obvious, but it is not so much when dealing with this shock.

Strength to you on this path you have to walk my thoughts are with you.

ETA:

Just remember that her account of their meetings would most likely be a very sanitized and minimized version of the truth and that you most likely have only been told the tip of the iceberg.

Be ready for far more explicit and hurtful revelations.

It is time to let go of the outcome and look after yourself and your children.

Implement the 180 and detach, this is for YOU and YOUR sanity and mental health.

[This message edited by DictumVeritas at 3:22 AM, September 5th (Saturday)]

Your life is but a flicker to the cosmos and only the brightest flickers are recorded by history for good or bad. Most of us just want to live our lives without being interfered with.

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justsayno ( New Member #75179) posted at 9:13 AM on Saturday, September 5th, 2020

Wow. That was amazing freefaller. My condolences for where you're at, but you have handled this unbelievably well. I know it can't be easy. Try to get some sleep: maybe melatonin will help.

posts: 29   ·   registered: Aug. 14th, 2020
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DictumVeritas ( Member #74087) posted at 9:40 AM on Saturday, September 5th, 2020

freefaller,

Just a last quick suggestion before I go, If at all possible, have a friend or family member over. It is better to not be alone right now.

Your life is but a flicker to the cosmos and only the brightest flickers are recorded by history for good or bad. Most of us just want to live our lives without being interfered with.

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Michigan ( Member #58005) posted at 9:48 AM on Saturday, September 5th, 2020

5. Post Nup

Not legally binding in this country, and can cost thousands to put together. Waste of time.

freefaller

I know you're getting divorced but an alternative to a post nup is getting divorced and living togeather.

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ShutterHappy ( Member #64318) posted at 11:33 AM on Saturday, September 5th, 2020

freefaller,

When a spouse cheat, they are basically terminating the marriage without telling the betrayed spouse.

A relationship is based on trust and there is no trust at the moment of exposure. That is why you couldn’t offer R right away.

Staying calm during the confrontation is a great accomplishment. I find it similar to confronting your children when they did something bad: you stay calm but firm. That way you are in control of the situation and you are able to direct the outcome where you want it to go.

Now, go to the pub with some friends :)

To offer R, and build a new marriage, your spouse would need to build trust again and start telling the truth, no matter what the outcome.

Infidelity is about selfishness. She was selfish with her affair, she was selfish during the confrontation. She was lying to you, or trying to get you to pity her for her own selfish reasons (I’m a piece of shit, pity me, confort me etc...). She doesn’t want to lose you, her house etc...when she said she loved you, what she meant was she loves what you bring to her.

Love is selfless, you want the best for your spouse. Cheating on your spouse doesn’t accomplish that. You can’t love a spouse and cheat on your spouse. it’s all about her.

What about the pain she caused you?

She tried to blame you, but one doesn’t fix a marriage by cheating. It doesn’t make sense. “You don’t pay enough attention to me so I slept with someone else in secret”. Ah... is the marriage fixed now? Maybe a better explanation, one that makes sense, would be: “I enjoy this marriage, this married life and my spouse. It’s also fun to date new people and getting some extra ego boost. My spouse won’t find out. And it’s all my spouse’s fault anyways, it can’t possibly be my fault”

You are right about the NC with her friend and AP. Make sure you keep the blame on her, not her friend though. I don’t know about you, but if a friend of mine suggested to me to cheat on my wife, I would wonder if he’s really my friend. Your WW thought it was a good idea and went along with it, because she was predisposed to it. When her friend suggested to your WW to cheat on you, she basically suggested that she destroys her life because it’s fun and exciting. She could have said “why don’t you go stab a few people in London, it’s so fun and exciting!”. Some friend she is... If your WW wants to R, she will need to understand that.

As for the AP, it could have been anyone.

Many BS that post here want to R right away because we love our spouse so much, our natural reaction is to rug sweep.

But then decide on D later. Some people want to D right away, but decide on some form of R later. As long as your eyes stay open, you could change your mind 50 times and it’s fine.

If you are dead set on D, her having a timeline, NC etc... doesn’t help much. She goes her way and is free to do whatever she wants and so is you. Keep everything she wrote down, it could be useful in the D proceeding.

If you change your mind and consider R? Put a VAR in your car (if she uses it). Your WW probably had an emotional attachment with her AP, and she might not be able to go NC just like that.

You have done very well, now is the time to take care of you and your children.

Keep on posting and we’ll keep on helping you.

Me: BH
Divorced, remarried.
I plan on living forever. So far so good

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Sceadugenga ( Member #74429) posted at 11:55 AM on Saturday, September 5th, 2020

Freefaller you are THE MAN! Hats off to you!

I wish I'd had one tenth of your resolve when dealing with my shit.

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Stevesn ( Member #58312) posted at 12:15 PM on Saturday, September 5th, 2020

Well done.

You need support on your side. Is there a friend or family member you trust your tell? You are probably a bit in shock as well even if you dont feel it.

STAY AWAY FROM ALCOHOL. Drink water and eat if you can.

As for your wife. I want you to know, the skills to recover, find remorse, rebuild and help you heal are NOT INNATE to ourselves after becoming a cheater. No one expects to have betrayed a loved one. Our instinct is to deny and deflect and self protection.

Giving up control is not easy or comfortable.

So it is the willingNess of the wayward spouse to learn how to do these things that we judge. It is their ability to read and discuss and understand what truly must be done to become who they are not, let go of the outcome, and be selfless instead of selfish that measures if they are a candidate for R.

So take your time. Follow on the path you are on and see if she can do those things. Even if she does, that does not mean you have to try and rebuild with her. But by being honest about what you need to even try, as you have been so far, you give yourself the chance of having the most options as to what your lives, together or apart, can be look like down the road.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 6:24 AM, September 5th (Saturday)]

fBBF. Just before proposing, broke it off after her 2nd confirmed PA in 2 yrs. 9 mo later I met the wonderful woman I have spent the next 30 years with.

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Bigger ( Guide #8354) posted at 1:16 PM on Saturday, September 5th, 2020

* I said "We're getting divorced. That's it. I want to take some more time to consider how best to do that, but right

now I'm going to get it actioned as soon as possible." "It's probably a good idea for me to take more time so I can

think about things more, but if that's to happen, then I need to do that without you risking my security or position"

"I am going to give you a list of boundaries that must be followed completely."

This happens all the time:

Verbal message: We are getting divorced.

Action message: These are the conditions I need to remain married.

If you are getting divorced the boundaries have no goal or purpose. She’s free. You have fired her from her role as wife.

Divorce is detachment.

Setting conditions and terms is the equivalent of firing an employee for constantly being late and missing deadlines and then expecting him to improve during the severance period or being unhappy that he still oversleeps and misses deadlines after he’s fired, or even dropping by his home to see if he oversleeps in his new job.

Remember: Divorce is a process. You don’t get to say how it ends, the laws do. She can right now just go and date OM and anyone she wants, she can file, she can move back in the home… whatever. Your actions are limited and dictated by the laws in your state or country.

Infidelity is beaten through reality – not fantasy. A lot of what you share is fantasy.

"If, therefore, any be unhappy, let him remember that he is unhappy by reason of himself alone." Epictetus

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Robert22205https ( Member #65547) posted at 1:26 PM on Saturday, September 5th, 2020

At points (especially getting details of them having sex), she would try to use softer words.

Upon exposure cheaters go into survival mode. They become desperate to limit the consequences from their decisions to commit adultery.

This is typical behavior on the part of a cheater.

They are protecting their ego/self image by minimizing (and denying) what they did to themselves as well as to you.

Minimizing & denying (lying to themselves as well as the spouse) is one of the wayward mental mechanisms that contribute/enable them to cheat.

Confessing details to you is not a punishment. It forces her to confront herself and is a major step in making herself a safe partner because it transforms (in her head) the affair from a harmless exciting romance into the selfish, deceitful, hurtful and immoral acts they are.

Providing a more detailed timeline (the dating app, conversations about her marriage, husband, or whatever that led up to the first kiss, her thoughts before during and after each contact (especially upon returning home), as well as what they did/where/when - is an important first step in making herself a safe partner.

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Stinger ( Member #74090) posted at 1:29 PM on Saturday, September 5th, 2020

Agree. What are boundaries for? You are divorcing, right? Just go no contact except for logistics re the divorce.

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Robert22205https ( Member #65547) posted at 1:35 PM on Saturday, September 5th, 2020

You probably didn't sleep at all last night (and that's normal).

See a doctor for help sleeping and dealing with the mood swings.

You'll also be experiencing a variety of emotions that flip in a heart beat (that's normal). Time helps.

When she begs, cries and appears broken you will instinctively want to say or do something to make it all better (don't). Under the circumstances, she's not crying for you and any sympathy from you will be viewed as weakness.

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Robert22205https ( Member #65547) posted at 1:46 PM on Saturday, September 5th, 2020

Some thoughts:

1 - You can love her and even forgive her - but still conclude that divorce is the best option because you can't trust her.

2 - Wife is a different role from mother. Your wife can be a wonderful mom - but be an unsafe life partner.

3 - There are many labels that apply to a cheater. Among other things, in the context of her marriage, your wife's affair was: selfish, entitled, deceitful, and lacked empathy for you.

Unfortunately, there's no switch for her to turn off those characteristics. It takes years of hard work on her part.

4 - Beware her love bombing you and hysterical bonding. It's a natural short lived biological attempt by both of you to make the pain go away - that leads to a major disappointment when reality returns.

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Cooley2here ( Member #62939) posted at 2:01 PM on Saturday, September 5th, 2020

I would have thought there was a small chance of R until you mentioned her Tinder account. She’s looking.

To thine own self be true. Shakespeare

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Bigger ( Guide #8354) posted at 2:06 PM on Saturday, September 5th, 2020

Cooley2here

I thought that this marriage – like nearly all marriages – had a chance of R totally irrespective of the Tinder account (it’s the activity of the count that really matters IMHO) UNTIL freefaller clearly told his wife that the marriage is over and he is divorcing.

Once that’s in place then focus changes and so should our advice IMHO.

Like if he’s divorcing, he needs to be very clear on the legal implementations of refusing his wife residence in her home. She can willingly agree to move, but she can probably just as well insist she moves back in.

"If, therefore, any be unhappy, let him remember that he is unhappy by reason of himself alone." Epictetus

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Buster123 ( Member #65551) posted at 2:24 PM on Saturday, September 5th, 2020

Well done. Now make sure you tell her parents yourself, she could convince her brother to tell her parents that you were abusive or not treating her right, that her A was out of desperation or something like that, make sure you tell them the truth.

Also, tell her to go and get tested for STDs and show you the results (even if you D, she's still the mother of your kids). OTOH, she was on Tinder, so she was looking for more OMs to have sex with, this suggests that she at least has a "serial cheater" mindset if she's not one already, also check for other dating apps such as "Plenty of Fish", "Badoo", etc, again this may not be her first rodeo and if you are still considering R or decide to R at some point, a polygraph is in order.

So far you have handled this very well and followed the advice, you have her on video stating that she was "happy" and that being married to you was the "best decision she ever made", so she as 0 excuses to tell her parents or anyone else, nothing justifies what she did but cheaters typically try to blameshift and come up with ridiculous excuses. Keep posting here.

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Stevesn ( Member #58312) posted at 2:25 PM on Saturday, September 5th, 2020

I agree. OP was not clear.

But I read it as “I will be following the path to divorce as I have no other choice right now. If you can show me you understand what you have done to destroy our relationship, and take real steps to change and rebuild and help me heal, then I will gauge how fast we move toward completion of the legal ending of our marriage and decide if you are someone I can reconcile with. Until i see that I am moving forward with the D process.”

But of course I am probably projecting. Freefaller will have to confirm what he means and how he communicated it.

fBBF. Just before proposing, broke it off after her 2nd confirmed PA in 2 yrs. 9 mo later I met the wonderful woman I have spent the next 30 years with.

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id 8583812
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Bigger ( Guide #8354) posted at 2:41 PM on Saturday, September 5th, 2020

Stevesn – that’s the message I try to get across in my boilerplate but based on what freefaller shares he simply told his wife the marriage is over and he’s divorcing.

If that is the case then we should be helping him detach and making it clear to him that he’s fired his wife from that role and he needs to start the emotional, practical and legal aspects of that process.

As is he’s monitoring her phone and electronics. As if borrowing C’s phone or using a pay-phone or brothers land-line aren’t options for WW if she wants to remain in contact with OM.

"If, therefore, any be unhappy, let him remember that he is unhappy by reason of himself alone." Epictetus

posts: 9858   ·   registered: Sep. 29th, 2005
id 8583815
Topic is Sleeping.
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