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The thing is after DDAY we are relying on the same skills we had before DDAY

This is the thing that I can’t get my WS to see. He thinks he knows how we should deal with this— primarily pretend it never happened. Examining the why’s prevents us from moving on, “rehashing” the past is pointless, I’m trying to shame him when I try to get him to talk about things, I’m “always criticizing” him when I suggest there may be a better way to do things, particularly communication and conflict resolution. But he wants to “go back to being a normal couple (what’s a normal couple anyway?)..... without all this drama.”

The thing that drives me crazy? That’s the way we always dealt with problems before d-day. I was fine with it, really, I just thought that was the way we did things. Just wake up the next day and it’s over.. He’s the one who let resentment build, let a third party feed it, and passive aggressively used it all to entitle himself to his OA’s and whatever else. So, no, I’m not ok with doing the same thing we’ve always done. I really want to put some new skills in place but all my attempts have gone badly. Even trying what the counselors suggest goes badly. He blames me for being “an agitator” or feels sorry for himself because “I’m trying to change him.” No amount of reasoning, pleading, will work. I’ve made many good faith efforts to do something different on my own in hopes that he will join me... still waiting.

I don’t understand why he doesn’t understand that his unwillingness to do things differently, think differently, is the problem. He complains that we’re stuck, and we are as far as the reconciliation goes, but that’s stuck because he’s stuck. I’m healing precisely because I’ve accepted it and used it to grow and change. Yes I want him to change, because growth is change, and without growth, he’s stuck. And he’s stuck not seeing that he’s stuck. That sucks. Lol.

[This message edited by AintGonnaLose at 2:58 AM, March 18th (Wednesday)]

^^^Then the WS is only regretful. Not remorseful.

The thing that drives me crazy? That’s the way we always dealt with problems before d-day. I was fine with it, really, I just thought that was the way we did things. Just wake up the next day and it’s over.. He’s the one who let resentment build, let a third party feed it, and passive aggressively used it all to entitle himself to his OA’s and whatever else. So, no, I’m not ok with doing the same thing we’ve always done.

me too. I’m a BS, but living this shitshow means the BS has to do some work too, even if it’s to just be able to pull ourselves up off the floor and back into living our lives. It’s scary to face our poor behavior. It’s scary to dig deep into ourselves, our hurts, their sources, and the ways in which we have hurt others, even if that did not include an A.

And I suppose that’s another “drive me crazy” aspect of this.... it’s not like the BS gets a pass on delving into their own shortcomings (and I’m not saying they caused the A). That work becomes incorporated into our own healing - regardless of D or R or limbo or whatever. Yet, we see sooooooo many WS here that just can’t seem to see that, just like a WS, we BS must face ourselves, and find the strength and courage to do so. When viewed in conjunction with the immeasurable hurt and pain and anger from the A, that cognitive dissonance (or sometimes willful blindness) can feel like a whole new layer of being devalued and disrespected in addition to all that came with the A.

^^^Then the WS is only regretful. Not remorseful

I agree. I’ve thought this all along. I do believe that he feels bad for what he did, but he feels worse for himself than anything. I don’t know if it’s guilt due to things he’s kept from me or behavior continued after d-day, or shame and self-condemnation, but his aversion to really looking at himself is fear based I have. I no doubt of that. He emphatically denies all of those things. Pride is just the self-deceptive version of fear and he’s full of it. Coming to this site and reading through the wayward side has given the affirmation I didn’t want to find, that there is something wrong here and it’s not all in my head or my doing. Before I came here, I had only seen remorseful FWW’s, so I hoped maybe it was just because men didn’t “get it “ the same way women did, but I now know that’s not the case. I just don’t know what I’m going to do about it. He wasn’t always like this. He’s regressed, emotionally, spiritually, and in his ability to be honest with himself and everyone else. I know he’s capable.... I’m just afraid he’s forgotten how.

[This message edited by AintGonnaLose at 4:05 PM, March 18th (Wednesday)]

I’m just afraid he’s forgotten how.

He may not of ever even knew how. I think that is where a BS comes in. Holding them accountable. APs don't and that is in part why we have them. They sit in the shit with us. I never knew how. I never needed to worry about it till circumstances changed to prove how much I didn't. Stressors to shed light on my true character. My children being born. My wife having her own stressors and dealing with them differently and in a healthy way instead of me getting her undivided attention and support. It wasn't even a factor that I ever knew. My history proves it. It just was that the environment hadn't yet exposed just how incapable I was by choice of course. Some people give in and take the easy route. Flight. Some people like my wife are fighters and persevere. I chose at an early age to run and be lazy.

[This message edited by Zugzwang at 9:10 AM, March 19th (Thursday)]

I also went through the anger and refusing to understand the importance of rehashing. To me, it felt like being punished on repeat. I felt like the dog getting its nose rubbed into its mess. I could not understand why we had to keep going over things I accepted as true but couldn’t change.

It took me a long time to really listen and understand what he was saying. He needs me to see who I was during the affair. He needs me to see who I was before the affair. He needs me to see and understand my dangerous behavior and thinking before and during the affair. I didn’t get to this point overnight. If I can’t identify my behavior, how it started, and how to change it, I will never truly be a safe person for him. It’s also helpful for him. He ignored a lot of my behavior before the affair. He needs to rehash as a reminder of things he should not be ignoring and tolerating. It helps him continue to set high standards for himself and stay safe.

Repeated questions are not just about him needing you to understand your behavior, but also for him to process it. It’s nearly impossible to be able to take everything at once and be able to come to any conclusion.

You have the affair itself and then you have each hurt, each betrayal within that affair. Each one needs to be processed separately. It’s not linear. Many times one betrayal is connected to another, therefor needs to be revisited. Sometimes one aspect of the betrayal is too painful to process and needs to be set down for some time before returning to it. Processing one bit of pain can help with another area and help put a narrative in place but sometimes it can open a wound that neither of you knew existed.

This is exactly why this needs to be done together when attempting to R. It’s not just about you getting healthy and becoming a safe partner. It is also about him being able to make a narrative through this that helps him go against every grain of his being telling him to separate himself from someone so dangerous to him.

You have the affair itself and then you have each hurt, each betrayal within that affair. Each one needs to be processed separately.

WOES- this nails it for me.

bc the WS personally chose & experienced each of those individual betrayals, it seems s/he comes to the dday table with all of that intact. Rather than get graphic / gross with a shit sandwich analogy, let's say the A is something else, like a duck.

The WS knows it's a duck, bc the WS has personally seen it, heard it, petted it, played with it, and interacted with the duck in many (unfortunate) ways. They know it's a duck. Once or twice we BS may have thought we caught wind of a some kind of bird in the house (what was that noise, honey?). But the WS tells us it's nothing, it's the wind, it's a cat, or whatever - they simply lie about our perception of anything scary or concerning being in the picture.... being in our sphere of (a relatively safe) life.

Then on dday, suddenly appears a duck on our pretty dining room table in the midst of dinner, squawking and clucking and pooping all over EVERYTHING. We cannot process that it is even here, or that it's even a duck. We were deaf and blind to the existence of ducks in our world. We've never seen a duck, or not one that looked like THIS. We can't understand that it exists and we REALLY can't understand how it got into our homes or onto our table. So we ask questions to try and reconcile our perceptions to the new reality of this duck walking over our lovingly prepared dinner. We ask if it has feathers, and a beak, and what kind of nails are on its feet. We ask what that quacking noise means, cuz we've never heard such a sound. We ask (over & over & over) how and why our loved ones could let a duck come to the table and poop all over our healthy food. The WS gets flabbergasted, and keeps saying "it's just a duck with some poop, we'll just shoo it away and get back to our regularly scheduled dinner" and they simply cannot understand how we don't see it as a duck, let alone that it is a dangerous, family murdering, duck (like the rabbit in Monty Python's Holy Grail).

When I experienced dday, I just could not understand any of it. I'd ask my WH questions and he'd get very angry and frustrated. He would roll his eyes and say things like "that's what you do in an affair" or "that's what an affair is" as if I was a complete idiot (note to newbies: probably not a good idea to follow my WH's examples here). Even trying to understand the lies he told would be met with "secrets are part of having an A", as if I was just too dumb to see this.... as if there was something wrong with ME for not having a brain (or lack of morality) that would immediately see and recognize and understand I was dealing with a duck. The list of things I don't understand is still quite long. By his continued refusal to come completely clean, by still refusing to put in the time and effort to provide a true and detailed timeline, he continues to deny me the opportunity to heal the 1000s of cuts he (or his fucking duck) made into my heart and soul.

I've never been stoned to death, but being a BS feels like what I imagine stoning to be: you are laying on the ground, suffocating and unable to breathe from the weight of it all. My WH perceived what was on my chest as a single 200lb boulder that he called "having an A". But to me, it's a bag full of thousands of rocks, from pebbles to boulders, that holds 200 lbs. That bag has no distinct name, as it consists of rocks of various sizes named "having sex" and "kissing" and "lying" and "flirting" and "gaslighting" and "abandonment" and "I'm not worthy" and "where did you go" and "I must be an awful wife" and "what did you discuss" and "breaking my confidences with a stranger" and "what makes her so special you threw me in the trash can" and "unloveable" and "where was I on x day" and "hotel rooms" and "deleted texts" and the thousands upon thousands of hurts caused by his lying and cheating over the course of our relationship.

He thinks by removing the big rock (the one he calls "the affair" ), I will be able to breathe. And to some degree, he is correct. Removing the biggest rock may allow me to breathe sufficiently to not die (at least not quickly). What he does not understand is that I need to see and inspect and process each and every one of those pebbles, each and every rock, and each and every boulder that still resides on my chest. What he does not understand is that I may be breathing by his removal of the biggest boulder, but it is not sufficient to provide a healthy, life sustaining, amount of oxygen. What he doesn't understand is that even after the biggest boulder is removed, I am still pinned to the ground by the weight of all the remaining rocks of varying sizes.

And ETA: at the same time I am trying to identify/process each pebble/rock in the "having an A" bag, I am simultaneously dealing with ANOTHER set of weights constantly being added to my chest (& impairing breathing) called, "trickle truth" and "defensiveness" and "minimization" and "not doing the work" and "breaking NC" and "continued lies" and "unworthy" and "I'm ashamed I've not divorced" and "PTSD" and all the other weight that is put upon a BS after dday while a WS does not get or own "it".

[This message edited by gmc94 at 4:21 PM, March 20th, 2020 (Friday)]

gmc94, I love your rock analogy. It really resonates with me.

After having a pretty big “aha” moment after an MC session (I swear we had the best MC), HT said that we would not leave a single stone unturned. We haven’t. Some have been turned and out right back until a later time. Some just peeked at. In the end, I truly feel that we turned them all over. Admittedly, some are still off in the shadows hanging out as they continue to be too painful to look at in the direct light, but they are there.

Thanks, GMC. I also appreciate that analogy a lot.

Round of applause, gmc94. That's a perfect description of my experience. DDay absolutely destroyed me, and then my XWH was all eye-rolling & impatient with me for not being able to just move on. About a month into our so-called R, he was already saying "Why can't you just get over it?"

I guess that's why we're divorced now.

Anyway, thanks for your words – your post helped me a lot today.

Aok, I’m 3 years out in a similar situation. I’d like to ask you some questions, but I don’t want to thread jack anymore than I already have. Lol. If you had the time to PM me, I’d like to hear more about your experience and get your opinion on mine.

Just a reminder that public request for pm’s is against the guidelines. Your pm feature will activate once you reach 50 posts.

Hey guys, I would love to contribute my 2 cents to this thread, but I'm currently in a whirlpool of pain. (Just realised after months of struggling to breathe underwater in this pool of shit I've been dunked into, that instead of helping the situation, she has been shovelling more shit into the pool while watching me drown. Seriously it would have been bad enough if she just looked on with indifference and inaction. Sighs)

But just want to post and point out to everyone who has shared here just how freaking on point you guys are. Reading some of the stuffs in here resonates so damn much it's both reassuring and sad.

It's a uniquely dark space, this life that we BS find ourselves in. And it's just ridiculous how little WS care or understand how insanely difficult it is for us to survive, not to mention attempt to navigate our way out of this nightmare.