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RocketRaccoon posted 5/11/2020 21:18 PM

One, do I even want to stay no matter what she does?

Totally up to you. You can make the decision now or later, nothing is stopping you. If you feel that it is a dealbreaker, even years down the road, and your WW has done a lot to change herself, you can still leave. It is all about what you can tolerate. What YOUR boundaries are.

There is no shame in staying or leaving. There is only shame is not doing anything.

If I live to 70 (given my health issues that would be a high end) then this will have taken up at least 1/10th of my total time on this planet.

So, what are you going to do with the time you have left? Stay in limbo, or do something about it? Every day that you spend not making a decision, is a day wasted, and the days we all have are finite.

HellFire posted 5/14/2020 22:03 PM

Have you shared this site with your wife?

Dranth posted 5/15/2020 05:10 AM

She actually found it before I did but never signed up until recently.

Butforthegrace posted 5/15/2020 08:09 AM

how long did it take you to let go of the hate? I donít feel it all the time but every now and then I just get hit with a wave that is almost crippling. Just the urge to tell her to pack her stuff and get out.

I don't think there is an average for this. In your case, your STD will be with you for life. Even if you D, you'll have a hurdle to dating others because it's something you'll need to disclose and for many people it will be a deal breaker (i.e. no sex). So, among the many things you can "thank" your WW for, one of them is that she has, via her private choices, imposed a straight jacket on you in terms of future dating.

There are common emotional phase to A recovery (whether via D or R). The roller coaster of emotions you're going through now is normal. An admixture of anger and hate blended with a vivid memory of the love you thought you had and a burning desire to return to that, as if the A never happened.

Eventually you'll come to terms with the fact that you can never return to that. The grim reality is that, no matter what, your WW will always be a cheater. She may be other things in addition, but one thing she will always be, whether you D or R, is a wife who cheated on you. And, in your case, she will be a wife who cheated on you and gave you an STD, so your grim reality will include the fact that you will carry this STD forever, no matter what.

You want to talk about anger? They call this the "Plane of Lethal Flatness", where the rest of your life stretches out before you to the horizon, and all you can see in it is the companionship of a cheater who infected you with an STD. The anger at that point can run deep and permanent.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 1:50 PM, May 15th (Friday)]

thatbpguy posted 5/15/2020 09:37 AM

Dranth, so far things are progressing as I would expect. You're going thru the phases we have tread before. To be sure, it really sucks.

In reading thru this thread for the first time, I see hope. Very few wives own it and are fairly honest as quickly as yours has. That tells me she wants to be committed to the relationship. And that's a good start.

You're still around- and that's also good. You also strike me as someone who processes their thoughts well internally. That's a good mechanism for weathering the shitstorm that engulfs you.

All I can offer is to say continue to work thru this one day at a time and work on you. Try to continue to focus on both your physical health as well as your emotional health. This is a long, slow and tortuous process. Maybe you make it thru and maybe you don't. But I feel it's worth the effort so if you do leave, it's because it just didn't work out rather than simply cutting and run.

I will leave you with this one thought. When me exww returned from her three week 'relationship' with Mr Rich, all I wanted to do was kick her to the curb. And hard. I was about 40 then and had a very good, trusted friend across the street and he was about 80 or so. His wife had betrayed him at about the same time in their marriage as you are and I was back then. He kicked her out hard and never considered R. About five years later when the scarring was complete he started missing her and their life, pre-betrayal. He felt he might even want to see her and wondered about R as there were things he still loved about her. As he tried to locate her he found she had remarried just before then. He feels the regret of his life was not giving a begging WW at least a chance on R. He later died a very lonely old man. To be sure, he knew it may have not worked out, but to not have given R a chance was cheating both he and his wife of rebuilding their shattered lives. His remained as such. Yes, some waywards deserve to be kicked t the curb given circumstances, but I don't seem to see that here. Fight the good fight, and if this ends, at least you will know it was for certain the right decision.

[This message edited by thatbpguy at 9:40 AM, May 15th (Friday)]

Stinger posted 5/15/2020 13:38 PM

Everyone is different as regards ability and desire to reconcile. It was clear to me, early on that I was never going to get over this. I did not want a marriage where I resented and mistrusted my wife, and I knew I alw as ys would if I remained in the marriage.
I am forgiving to a fault in most areas, but, for some reason, not this one.
It has been 4 months or so, right? Can you look inside, without judging, and figure out if this is a dealbreaker yet?
Consider that the favorable divorce terms she is offering may disappear in time.
Also, I was 42 when this happened to me. I was still pretty fit, having played lots of sports. I was deluged with options at that age. I realize the herpes is a consideration but you are very marketable.

HellFire posted 5/19/2020 09:14 AM

She found this site first? Well, that is a very good sign. That shows she is being proactive.

I've read her posts. I honestly can't think of another new WS who showed up here, already truly remorseful, this close to dday. She already seems to "get it," which typically takes a long time for most WS. And,despite her very UNloving behavior in the past, she seems to really love you.

Of course, I can only go by her words. Actions are what count.

Justsomeguy posted 5/19/2020 09:40 AM

Dranth, you are getting lots of carried advice here, but I think much of it feels heavy. An STI is not a social death sentence. As I mentioned to you, it is pretty common. It took me a little while, some research, and talking to my doctor to understand H1 and 2. I knew someone with it and she disclosed it to partners. No big deal as 1/5 people have it according to estimates. It has gotten a bad rap due to some marketing by a pharma comp early on. Yes, it is annoying, but manageable. Antivirals worked great and viral shedding was not an issue.

Don't base you decision on you STI thinking that you are stuck with her because no one will take you. As well, consider that this us also going through her mind. Don't let her settle for you because her dating options seem limited. You need to rebuild your relationship, if you choose R, on the foundation that relationships should be built on, not on it being your only shitty option.

Edited for clarity

[This message edited by Justsomeguy at 10:08 AM, May 19th (Tuesday)]

Dranth posted 5/19/2020 10:37 AM

Thanks to everyone who has posted and sent private messages. I want to respond to a few real quick.


In your case, your STD will be with you for life.

Yes, the STD will be here forever and anytime there is a flare up it is going to be a rather crappy reminder of what happened. That being said, I have a very ďit is what it isĒ attitude about it right now. This isnít the first disease I have had through no fault of my own (bad genetics being the other cause) and if there is one thing I have learned, obsessing over the unfairness of it doesnít get me anywhere and, in many cases, makes it worse. My other health issues will kill me, this one is just embarrassing and inconvenient. It in NO WAY diminishes the fact that she did this to me but the disease itself isnít as much of an issue compared to how I got it.


Very few wives own it and are fairly honest as quickly as yours has. That tells me she wants to be committed to the relationship. And that's a good start.

It is the only thing that has kept me from D right away. I am positive that I would not have been able to handle it had she lied after I gave her that last chance to come clean.

Having said that, there is a part of me that is still waiting for the other shoe to drop, still wondering if something else happened, if there was someone else or some event I am not being told about but so far everything lines up closely with what I dug up on my own. There have been little things here and there like a date being a bit off but nothing major so far.


Can you look inside, without judging, and figure out if this is a dealbreaker yet?

No, I canít. Before this I would have said it absolutely was but while I have been close a few times to saying I am done, I canít truthfully say it is a dealbreaker however, I very much recognize it may well be in the end.


I've read her posts. I honestly can't think of another new WS who showed up here, already truly remorseful, this close to dday. She already seems to "get it," which typically takes a long time for most WS. And,despite her very UNloving behavior in the past, she seems to really love you.

Like I mentioned before, she is almost like a different person in a lot of ways. She has been more caring, open, and honest. She has actually been putting in a ton of effort. I donít know it that will be enough but it was enough to make someone who would have just walked pause, at least for the time being.


Don't base you decision on you STI thinking that you are stuck with her because no one will take you.

It bothers me of course but I am not going to let it decide the outcome one way or another. There is that fear that no one would want to be with me but the more I have thought about it the more I am ok with just being on my own if it comes down to it and I have no intention of letting fear decide things for me.

As for an actual update, for the first time since this whole mess started I had about 30 minutes on the couch the other day talking with her where things felt ďnormalĒ. I donít even remember what we were talking about now (it wasnít the A) and I didnít even notice it was happening at first. When I did it stopped immediately but for a bit there I didnít feel like crap, I wasnít upset. I was just enjoying my time with her. I had forgotten what that actually feels like.

One other thing that has been happening off and on, I have started having what can best be described as a brain shutdown. I am an overthinker, always have been. I turn things over in my head endlessly until I get my answer but of late, I have found the brain just saying enough, I am done for a bit, see you in an hour or two. When it happens, I feel pretty much nothing. It isnít indifference, just no emotion. Anyone else run into this?

gmc94 posted 5/19/2020 23:41 PM

I have started having what can best be described as a brain shutdown.... I have found the brain just saying enough, I am done for a bit, see you in an hour or two. When it happens, I feel pretty much nothing. It isnít indifference, just no emotion. Anyone else run into this?
Yes. My dday is 2 yrs (to the day, I think) before yours. My WH has not come anywhere near where your BW is (yes we are still M, which at this juncture has more to do with pragmatic issues than anything else). Anyhow, my brain absolutely went into overdrive (or crash) mode. Unfortunately, it was usually about work/executive function and not emotional/A-related issues. It sucks, but it does get better.

Learning one is a BS is a traumatic event. Many (myself included) receive PTSD diagnosis after dday. Towards the end of year 1 I read "The Body Keeps the Score" by Bassel Van der Kolk (actually, I listened to it - I'm a well educated professional that reads for a living, but dday changed my ability to focus in some pretty profound ways. It's better, but still nowhere near what it was before). That book is not about infidelity, but about trauma. It really changed how I look at all of this shitshow and I highly recommend it (esp for those of us that like to think things through). The bottom line is that when we experience trauma, our lizard brain (for lack of a better term - some talk about the amygdala, others the vagus nerve, etc) pretty much goes into overdrive, and other parts can shut down (executive brain, appetite, etc). So, the brain going into "hibernation" for awhile doesn't strike me as unusual. A new BS is on brain overload, which can include emotions.

You may want to read up on disassociation, which is a not uncommon response to trauma.

Godspeed, from another BS trying to cope with/survive a LTA.

Organic2003 posted 5/20/2020 02:03 AM

Hi Dranth

It appears you are doing much better than you were in January, that is so good to hear.

I believe you have a good case for R if that is the route you desire.

Two thing keep bothering me, not that should matter to you. I am just a guy that has been around way too much agony from cheaters.

First, leaving when you were sleeping.

That sounds like me in high school taking my dads car after climbing out a window. I KNEW my dad would catch me sooner or later.
The Juice was worth the Squeeze, I knew the punishment was going to be less than the fun.
She had to know the risk or even wanted to get caught. She must of planned for the possibility you would wake up with the obvious questions.

Second, the protected sex doesn't ring true (Not that it even matters assuming no pregnancy risk)

The risk for HSV-2 transmission from men to women was 28.5 transmissions per 1,000 unprotected sex acts (95% CI, 10.8-74.1) and 1.3 male-to-female transmissions per 1,000 protected acts (95% CI, 0.4 to 4.5), yielding a 96% reduction in HSV-2 transmission with male condom use (95% CI, 84%-99%).

Now I sincerely hope the two of you find a way to reconcile so I had a very hard time even writing this.

I think she was getting her high from this affair and the more risk the better the high.

Gmc94 pointed you to a book, please read it if the mind movies or PTSD gets overwhelming it helped me understand.
"The Body Keeps the Score" by Bassel Van der Kolk

[This message edited by Organic2003 at 2:28 AM, May 20th (Wednesday)]

Butforthegrace posted 5/20/2020 06:03 AM

I've read her posts. I honestly can't think of another new WS who showed up here, already truly remorseful, this close to dday. She already seems to "get it," which typically takes a long time for most WS. And,despite her very UNloving behavior in the past, she seems to really love you.

I question whether she actually showed up "truly remorseful". She describes the marriage as a sexless hellscape in which she felt totally undesired. The AP's desire for her, as shallow as it was, she describes as akin to offering a bit of water to somebody dehydrating in the desert.

Dranth was in that same sexless marriage. Most men would not choose to remain sexless unless they truly found their wife sexually unattractive in every way; Dranth has not indicated that he finds his WW sexually unattractive (as distinct from current difficulties with sex due to the aftermath of the A).

Usually, there is a "low desire" and "high desire" partner. I'm curious to know whether it is Dranth, or Svereen, who is the LD/HD partner. I'll go out on a limb and suggest the possibility that, as between Dranth and Svereen, it was Svereen whose LD for Dranth was metering their sex life down to almost nothing, that Svereen had a history of subtly rejecting and/or deflecting Dranth's sex so that the frequency of sex dwindled down to almost nothing.

She also says that her tryst with the AP were "just sex". No remorseful WW says this to her BH, especially if she has a history of metering sex with the BH to the point of almost total abstinence. It is a subtle, passive-aggressive form of cuckolding. My observation is that most women, especially WW, lack empathy and understanding of the ways in which a WW's sex with an AP emasculates and sexually humiliates a BH.

Here, the issue is more acute because Dranth clearly has low sexual self-esteem. If Svereen had empathy, and hence remorse, she would be sensitive to this and would not utter bullshit minimizing remarks that would almost certainly exacerbate his self-esteem issues.

Waywards always try to minimize. "It was just sex" comes from WW's a lot because in their POV, that is a version of minimizing, but it is also a very loud reminder of the absence of empathy, which equates to the absence of remorse.

Another narrative -- which to me frankly feels closer to the facts that we do know -- is that she didn't want to be married to Dranth any more but she lacked the courage of her conviction to be honest with him, so she simply found an ersatz husband to satisfy certain desires that she has generally (but not for Dranth).

I don't doubt that she harbors affinity for him and wishes he were not in pain. However, I don't see evidence from her, nor from facts given to us by Dranth, that she actually desires him sexually and/or wants to be his wife in every sense of being a wife. Mostly what I see in her posts is a WW trying to control the outcome by manipulating the narrative. I don't see anything about her trying to come to an understanding of the inner Dranth, the demons that haunt him, the most secret fears and intimate vulnerabilities. The void of any attempt to actually understand her BH is what screams the loudest to me.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 8:23 AM, May 20th (Wednesday)]

MickeyBill2016 posted 5/20/2020 13:15 PM

Hello Dranth-

It is hard to read your posts, especially the first one where it all was new to you...she had been living two lives for 4 years so there was no shock or surprise for her. Just an "Oh Shit" moment.

It's good that she is posting but until she lowers her self protective shields I would advise you if you were my friend to look hard at divorce. She is still protecting herself and sort of trying to think about maybe R.
A 4 year affair is a full time job that she worked hard at, bringing him to your bed and leaving you when you thought you were asleep next to your wife. I could never forget or forgive that...
She will be fine on her own. And eventually you will too.
Don't stay together due to the STD that you both have, on dating sites I have seen women revealing that right up front. It will cut down on the pool though.

Stinger posted 5/20/2020 19:36 PM

Just the old lawyer in me thinking: you may have a civil cause of action against your wife for infecting you. Clearly, she had a duty to inform you of her promiscuity and the risks to your health. No question infecting you caused damage.
In the event you decide to divorce, you might explore this. Could be a bargaining chip or you might get a judgement worth some significant $$.
People who play Russian Roulette with other peoples' health, as your wife did to you, should pay for their treachery.

I wonder how a halfway bright person would not know that condoms do not offer complete protection. And, have you been tested for other STDs? She very well may be carrying something else, as well.

Dranth posted 5/21/2020 08:52 AM

So, just to clarify a point that I believe causes some confusion.

We donít and really never have slept in the same room due to some sleep issues that arise when we tried. We have always had separate rooms. We have never had a problem sleeping in the same bed in terms of not liking it, or not wanting to, I just had issues that made it so I couldnít sleep when we did and over time would get run down and exhausted to the point where I had to sleep in a different room again.

In addition, she has always been a bit of a night owl. She will get up in the middle of the night and jump online, read some books, go work on her current puzzle or whatever else. She has been doing that since I first met her.

Anyway, this obviously made her sneaking out easier as I was in a different room passed out for the night. If I woke up to use the restroom, I would use the closest one which would mean I never even walked past the other bedroom to see if she was there. Why would I when I never expected something like this? In addition, I was used to hearing her up and about at odd hours the times I did wake up because for 20 years she has done that.

Finally, the actual number of times she snuck out of the house was pretty small. Despite how many years this went on there were long stretches of time for most of it when they would not see each other more than once every 2-3 months. This lines up with what I have found and what she was told me. When you consider not all those times it happened were at night it makes sense why I never noticed. I really beat myself up over that for a while, how the hell could I not notice her going missing? When I figured out the frequency and looked at it from a logical point of view it started to make sense. The actual chance of me noticing was really pretty small.

No, that does not make what she did better in any way shape or form but it might explain why it seems so absurd to some people that she thought she could get away with it. She didnít need to have a built-in excuse ready because I wasnít in the room to wake up when she left/came back. Had I noticed I would have called obviously and who knows what she would have come up with. Probably something along the lines of being out for a drive because she couldnít sleep.

I guess that is a long way of saying the risk of being caught was minimal despite how brazen what she was doing appears.

Also, a couple people have mentioned the possibility of an additional STD. There are no others. We both have been tested for everything the doctors could think of so at least I have that small bit of good news to hold onto.

Finally, let me say this. I have known her for 26 years overall and we were friends for years before ever getting together. I spent lots of time on the phone or in person talking to her about who she was dating or I was (including sex related topics). We never held back much. What I see her saying now fits with that person I talked to and have known this whole time. Much of it I never placed or couldnít have pointed out as I donít think I understood. I was missing pieces of the puzzle.

For instance, when she says it was just sex but then turns around and says she wasnít there for the sex and it wasnít that great, that she was there to feel wanted. I believe her. Why when those are obviously contradictory statements in a lot of ways?

I buy it because looking back it isnít an uncommon theme for her. It has always been wanting to be wanted that was important to her. Sex, the actual act, was almost always a delivery method for what she truly wanted, to feel desired. So yes, it was only sex in the sense that it got her what she needed but it wasnít the sex itself that she was interested in or really wanted. Clear as mud I know but when you put what she is saying with the history and how her A played out it does start to make some sort of messed up sense.

I know some people will argue how could I really know her when I never saw this whole situation coming. Obviously, I didnít know her as well as I thought I did but oddly, with this, I feel like I now know her better than I ever did because it puts all of our history as friends, dating or married into context. Things I couldnít place before or seemed off make sense now. Behaviors I could never understand or really believe make sense or at least more sense.

Bottom line, she is messed up in many ways and needs help. I hope she gets it. I donít hold any ill will at this point. None. I have not forgiven, I have not moved past it and that doesnít mean I am ready to try R or that I am even leaning that way, Iím not. It just means I understand better than I did before and I donít have any hate for her. I hate what she did, not her.

Anyway, I know this is rather long winded but I wanted to get some of this out there to help with the confusion. Some of it is stuff I never think to mention because it is so normal for us but I understand it is not for others.

Organic2003 posted 5/21/2020 09:52 AM

Good Morning Dranth

Thank you for taking the time to clear up how she could leave when you were sleeping. I thought of this as so dangerous, that she just did not care.

It sounds like you are gaining some trust and respect back for your wife. Somehow I think she is earning it and will make a safe and loving wife.

I hope that you can find a way to forgiveness and mercy. I know there are good people here that can help with how to do that. Please take care of yourself mentally and physically.

Have a great day

Dismayed2012 posted 5/21/2020 10:35 AM

Thanks for getting the post-nup in place Dranth. There's still a little ways to go to get through this but it seems you are moving in that direction. Whether you divorce or stay together is not as important as taking your life back and it sounds like you're on your way to doing just that. Realizing that only you can make yourself happy is a key to contentment. You have many years ahead of you and they can be the best ones yet as long as you keep that realization in the forefront of your mind. Get back as much as possible to working out, going out, and living and enjoying life. This situation is growing you mentally and emotionally. You're going to be a better, more understanding person than you were before. As always, I wish the best for you.

Stinger posted 5/21/2020 10:49 AM

Well, now that you think you know her better, how do you like her? Can you ever trust her? Have there been other affairs( of course you may never know).
The way I see it( and I am jaded) you are married to a person that has a very high com ffg or level with lying, not to mention lack of a conscience and empathy. 4 years, that you know off, hint that something was off. Sounds like she functioned just fine and did no agonizing over what she was doing.

What happens next time, if it happens? Do yuh ou lose another 4 years operating under a false reality? Do you contract another, more deadly STD?

I know you have thought of all this. It is, obviously, your call and I understand you are undecided.

All I can say is this happened to me when I was just about your age. It devastated me for a number of years, and still,bothers me. But, life got much more peaceful and fun once I reconciled myself to moving on without my cheater. It was scary and sad for a good long time, but turned out well for me. YMMV.

waitedwaytoolong posted 5/21/2020 12:10 PM

Dranch, thanks so much for clearing this up. It certainly explains how she was able to sneak out, but still doesnít answer the question of why. She says her liaisons were infrequent. If it wasnít such an immediate need, why push boundaries like this. They would have other opportunities to to have sex in a safer manner.

The same with bringing him into the house. The question isnít how she could, but why? I know Iím probably projecting, but bringing your lover into the home is about the biggest disrespect you can do to your spouse. Especially if itís an on or off relationship. Why do this? Has she given you an explanation? Couldnít she wait a day or two and not add this offense on top of all the others

Though she says she used protection, itís hard to believe she did. She pushed just about every boundary she could. Why Would she worry about a little thing like protection and your health. She played Russian Roulette and unlucky for you, the bullet in the chamber fired and shot you

You know your situation best. But the facts remain she went out looking for sex to make herself feel better. And she did this for years. She brought him into your house, let him give you and incurable STD, and only stopped because she got caught.

Now she says she loves you more than her own life. And she did during her affair. She may think she does, but her actions say otherwise. The really sick thing here is her giving you the STD in her mind might be the thing that saves her. She might not go as far as being happy for it, but It does give her an edge thinking it might make it harder for you to go out on your own I hope not, but you seem like a great guy and could still find someone who doesnít have the mountains of issues she has

You have no kids. Are you really going to want in ten years to still be looking at this person who could inflict so much hurt ?

BeyondRage posted 5/22/2020 09:27 AM


The problem I am having is that she is doing everything right at this point. I see from reading here how rare that is or how long it can take. Within a week of me finding out she had it all out laid out there and had already started doing the work.

I am not here to suggest either R or D for you. Your call entirely. My wife is as you said one of the rare instances where they do everything right from the start. But she did not do what yours did for anywhere near as long.

I'm sorry. I'm not buying it was only sex. A woman can get sex anytime she wants to. She wanted it from this guy, and since she has given you the standard line that the sex was not great, then why the fuck didn't she get ego kibbles from someone else. Thats not hard for a woman to get either.

Some may not like this, but the compartmentalization thing IS real. Aside from the sleeping arrangement, you should not beat yourself up about not catching on.

Those that cannot compartmentalize start to withdraw from their husband, find shit wrong with him, bedroom becomes dead, and the red flags are there. Much easier to catch.

I get a little tired of reading the ego kibble thing. Women are told from the time they hit puberty that getting the attention of men or boys is a good thing. They are told in every magazine they read, book they read, movie they see, how to look "sexy". Well, who the fuck are they looking sexy for???

I agree with Waited Way Too Long. There are certain actions that show even more disrespect to husband.
(1) bringing him into your home and bed
(2) introducing you to him
(3) involving the kids
(4) sex acts she refuses to you

Looks like you got only one of those.

You stated you overthink things. I think a lot of that goes on here. Like any criminal, if you consider cheating a sort of crime, she did it
(1) because she wanted to
(2) it was fun
(3) she never thought she would get caught

Most people who are unfaithful do not plan on leaving their spouse. So she is probably telling the truth on that.

You problem, my friend, is unless you can ACCEPT what she did, you will never be able to reconcile. Not forget, but accept. You and only you can decide if you can do that and allow the time to see. It's probably easier in a lot of cases not D.

This was not some fling. I won;t call it affair in true sense of word. on my thread someone called it sport fucking. But it lasted a long time.

She should have offered to take polygraph test any time you want in the future.

You can PM me or read my thread to see the similarities in the post d Day behavior. Yes, you are ahead of the curve on that one.

best of luck.

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