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Betrayed Menz Thread - Part 34

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Butforthegrace posted 4/19/2020 08:58 AM


I realize this is somewhat of a digression from your recent traumatic Dday, but I don't recall you telling us how Dday 1 occurred. How did you come to learn of the A in the first place? What was that process like.

I agree with Steady Chevy. A WW who is still engaging in this giant degree of TT is a WW who is still wayward, who has not budged even one millimeter toward empathy nor R. Looking you in the eye and promising that she is NC while in reality setting up a hotel and playing hooky from work for a freak session, that's punching a knife in your gut and twisting it around.

I repeat what I said above: my impression is that she is a woman who does not wish to be married. At all. Not to you, nor anybody. It's likely she cares about you as a person, wishes you weren't in pain, etc. But that's not the same as wanting to be married. If you really do love her, my suggestion would be to give her what she clearly wants: a single woman's life.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 10:49 AM, April 19th (Sunday)]

sisoon posted 4/19/2020 18:07 PM

I'm very sorry, Mach.

Have faith in yourself to heal. You will get through this and be OK.

Loukas posted 4/19/2020 19:52 PM

Sorry to hear, Mach. How are you holding up?

HeartFullOfHoles posted 4/19/2020 22:45 PM

Mach, that really suck! It's not an easy road, but you will get through this.

Machiavellia84 posted 4/21/2020 07:07 AM

Thank you to everyone who has been invested in my life story in some form or another so far.

How am I holding up? Not good. The govt just announced the covid lockdown to be extended till 1st June 2020.

Oh yeah. And also the fact that my WW is an unrepentant cheater liar.

Problem is I wasn't surprised by dday3 at all. I saw it coming. I pleaded and begged for honesty. I wanted to avoid future ddays. For her sake. Our sakes. My sake.

She didn't listen.

Anyway, I contacted my divorce lawyer. Kick started the process. I know now that I'm leaving not because I want to. But because SHE has made the decision for us. Her choice to protect herself, her choice to love herself more than her husband and son, her choice to continue with lies... that's what made the decision.

I have always wanted to work towards R. At the very least, give us a chance. But what can I possibly do, if she repeatedly decides to feed me half-truths?

I have communicated to her unequivocally about what it takes on her end, for us to have a chance to survive this. Honesty.

To me, that is the prerequisite. Step 1 of all possible steps she needs to take. And she has refused/been unable to take that step.

Maybe the lies have been too much, for too long, to walk back now. Maybe the truths are too scary for her to ever admit to me. Maybe being honest, in her opinion, is the end of us.

So she chose to disregard my need for honesty. And choose to manage me. Chose to manage us. Chose to manage the fallout. Chose to lie. Chose to trickle truth.

I refuse to live her life of lies. So I am divorcing her.

I told her, for the final time:

If you choose us (your husband and your son), you will have to overcome your fears and give me the unadulterated truth. Pure, 100% honesty.
If you choose yourself, you get to hold on to your lies. You get to avoid having your ugliest truths out in the open. You get to live your life the way you want.

If you choose the former, I cannot guarantee I can ever forgive you. I cannot guarantee we can survive it. But I promise, that is the only way we might have a shot.

If you choose the latter, that's fine. I understand. I have come to accept that it's your choice, I will just move on and live my own life on my own terms. It will be really sad, for a really long time, but I will be okay.

And then...

Here she is right now, completely freaking the fuck out. Hyperventilating. Anxiety attacks.

I asked her what's wrong. She says she cannot lose me. She chooses us. But she's so so so scared. She doesn't know how to tell me the full truth. (Which I already know has never been told after 3 rounds of "confessions/admissions").

She wants to have a talk tonight after dinner. She says she wants to do it. She wants to tell me everything. And she's completely losing her marbles. She says telling me the truth might mean losing me forever.

I told her, you have already lost me. Ball is in your court. You don't have to do this if you don't want to.

She's adamant she wants me. She wants us. She wants to provide me with full truth, for the first time... in her life, maybe.

"Be careful what you wish for", right? So I'm about to have my world shattered, reality re-fucked, again. Shitting bricks. Bracing myself.

I can only pray, that she has the courage to pull this off. If she doesn't, it's ok too. It's just the end.

Butforthegrace posted 4/21/2020 07:44 AM

Mach, how did you discover the A in the first place, back in September of last year?

Machiavellia84 posted 4/21/2020 07:58 AM

Mach, how did you discover the A in the first place, back in September of last year?

Came back pissed drunk after a night out with colleagues. AP was there. Didn't update me, didn't answer the phone, stumbled home completely wasted.

Didn't answer my questions on why she drank so much and why back so late.

I grabbed her phone and saw the messages between her and her AP. Only for that day alone. And it was devastating. She has been diligently deleting the messages daily before dday. Guess in her drunken state she didnt do so that night.

While my world crumbled I asked her if she slept with him. (The texts were explicit in nature but not conclusive.) She said no. Was screaming about leaving her alone. Hate me. Asked me to go away.

She showered and blacked out. I spent 7 hours straight on the bathroom floor going through her phone. In complete despair and disbelief and pain.

Next morning she just asked flatly, should I pack up and leave? I suppose you want me to get out of the house?

I said no. Had a talk. She confessed (partially, of course) to the affair. Because she assumed I already gathered as much from perusing her texts.

So began the trickle truthing.

HoldingTogether posted 4/21/2020 08:05 AM

Mach, if I can make a suggestion? Donít do this:

She wants to have a talk tonight after dinner. She says she wants to do it. She wants to tell me everything. And she's completely losing her marbles. She says telling me the truth might mean losing me forever.

Donít have her do this as a ďtalkĒ. She will be all over the fucking place, you guys arenít in a place where a ďtalkĒ is going to go anywhere productive.

Have her write it out. All of it, the whole thing. Everything she was doing everything she was saying everything she was thinking. Have her write it all down chronologically and dispassionately. Give her 24-48 hours to do it in. No fucking exceptions or extensions.

And then, when itís done, have her sit there quietly while you read it, ready to answer any questions you might have.

And of course let her know that her doing this doesnít necessarily change a god damn thing. Thereís no fucking quid pro quo for simple basic honesty and human decency. That shit should have been a fucking baseline minimum expectation in the marriage to fucking begin with.

Believe me, writing it out is the most productive way to handle it. Ask me how I know. Lol.

Butforthegrace posted 4/21/2020 08:16 AM

M84, I agree 100% with the above. Stop talking to her about it. Tell her you want a detailed written timeline, from the time she first met the AP to today. All dirty details included. When/how/why she first decided to fuck him. What she said did when she came home to you and your son after that. Everything.

And complete access to all her messages to corroborate dates and such.

Until then, no talks. You move forward with your process.

Remind her that if you had not caught her, the A would probably still be ongoing. Hell, the way she has lied, it could very well still be ongoing.

Came back pissed drunk after a night out with colleagues. AP was there. Didn't update me, didn't answer the phone, stumbled home completely wasted.

Next morning she just asked flatly, should I pack up and leave? I suppose you want me to get out of the house?

Husband and special needs child at home, and this is her behavior? And the first question upon waking up is "shall I leave?" I've said it before and I'll say it again: this is a woman who does not want to be married.

Was screaming about leaving her alone. Hate me. Asked me to go away.

In vino veritas, my brother.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 8:34 AM, April 21st (Tuesday)]

Loukas posted 4/21/2020 09:11 AM

Just another voice agree with HT.

Machiavellia84 posted 4/21/2020 10:15 AM

Believe me, writing it out is the most productive way to handle it. Ask me how I know. Lol.

Okay I'll bite. How do you know?

I don't mean to be condescending in any way at all. Truly touched that you guys are trying to help in whatever way you can.

Butforthegrace posted 4/21/2020 10:25 AM

Holding Together is a BH. I am too. The one thing SI has to offer is the cumulative crowdsourced wisdom of many cases of infidelity.

You have pointedly avoided the JFO forum, but if you were to post your story there you'd see that the overwhelming majority of betrayed spouse agree that the highest and best way for a wayward spouse to come clean to a betrayed spouse is via a detailed written timeline. Oral discussions about this very quickly derail into emotional, hysterical messes.

Additionally, for a WW to put the work into creating this timeline, this might be the first concrete step she takes to help the BH heal. Actions speak louder than words, and preparing a complete timeline is an action. A baby step action, but an action in the right direction.

Most betrayed spouses agree that, if there is a path toward R (and there is no assurance of this), it starts with 100% complete transparent honesty from the WW. You cannot heal if you don't know what you're healing from. Further, as others note, by the time it reaches this place, often the WW has been so dishonest in so many ways she is not even honest with herself. Writing out the detailed timeline might be the first time she really looks in the mirror and faces the reality of who she is and has become.

She should address questions like why she decided to have sex with AP the first, when she made that decision, where she was, what she said/did with/to you after making that decision. What did she think next time she looked her son in the face and knew she was betraying his father?

You may find, after all of this is done, that the insult is too great, you cannot overcome it no matter what. But at least you'll know. At present, you are thrashing about in the dark.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 12:05 PM, April 21st (Tuesday)]

Butforthegrace posted 4/21/2020 10:25 AM

Duplicate post

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 11:22 AM, April 21st (Tuesday)]

HoldingTogether posted 4/21/2020 11:29 AM

Okay I'll bite. How do you know?

Because Iíve been there, done that, bought some tchotchkes and a crappy Tshirt.

The trouble with talking out a full disclosure is that you are going to get side tracked right out the gate. She is going to tell you something that fucks you all up and you are going to end up diving right down that rabbit hole chasing that shit. And she is going to willingly go right down it with you, probably not even out of any conscious motivation, but because, if even only subconsciously she knows that as long as you are both busy exploring and hashing out terrible fucked up item A. she doesnít, at least for that moment have to move on to terrible fucked up item B. Or C.

And believe me she does not want to have to move on to the next terrible fucked up item one nano second sooner than she absolutely has to... Seriously, think about it, would you want to? Iím not trying to elicit sympathy for WSí or excuse it but only to point out something about essential human fucking nature. Just imagine having to verbally explain to someone the absolute worst most hurtful thing you ever did to them right to their fucking face. I donít care how good your intentions are, if you can figure out a way to put off even a part of that shit for even the briefest moment you are gonna do it.

You have her write that shit out so she canít use interruptions and tangents as an excuse. She has just one job, write it out, from point A to point Z beginning to end. She gets it all out. And then you read it with her right there ready to answer any questions. Now when you get to terrible fucked up item A. and your head explodes and you need to ask her questions, itís ok. Because no matter how far afield that discussion takes you... terrible fucked up item B. is still waiting for you right there on the papers in your hand. None of this ďOh, we got so busy talking about (blank) that I totally forgot to mention (blank).Ē bullshit to deal with.

Iíve tried it both ways. And when I finally got the written version I was exactly where you are right now. Broken by one too many pieces of trickle truth and fucking done. Packed a bag and left on a Friday started looking up lawyers to call on Monday. And my Wife freaked.the fuck.out, much like you are saying your wife is. And she, on her own initiative took that weekend to write me a 16 page timeline that had it all. And she sat there as I read it, watching my heart break several times over and willingly answering questions. Fuck, why not answer questions? It wall all right out there on paper already now.

Believe me, best approach if you want to get it all out in one go. Rip the bandage off quick for both of you.


Loukas posted 4/21/2020 11:59 AM

Writing out a timeline will also show you your wife's conviction, Mach.

She'll have to face herself first as she writes it out. A mirror staring right back at her as she writes out all her shame. If she's actually committed, actually wants to save the marriage, facing herself is a necessity.

waitedwaytoolong posted 4/21/2020 12:10 PM

I think that aside from the TT, which in almost every case is expected, is what this TT was. If it were instead of seeing each other over the two nights, it was 3. Or even something as awful as we didnít use protection, it is again expected

What shouldnít be expected is that after your DDay in September, where you had to be a mess, she goes out and sees him again a few weeks later. Itís the seeing him again after the fact that should be examined, not just the lie. She professes she loves you. This is not something that you do to someone you love. Itís what you do to someone you have no respect for

I also hate to say it, but if she were in this mindset for months, it wasnít a one time thing. It too was probably months

Butforthegrace posted 4/21/2020 12:55 PM

Here is what you know:

Sept. 28: This was a Saturday. She came home shit-faced drunk the night before (Friday night) after a night out with "colleagues". M84 took the opportunity to look at her phone, where he found a bunch of intimate sexy texts with the AP. Also found that she had deleted all prior text history with the AP (but was apparently too drunk that night to delete the ones from that evening).

M84, you don't tell us what led you to grab her phone. That's not something every married person does whilst caring for a drunk spouse. You must have had some gut feeling, a "spidey sense" as we say.

That day, he confronted and browbeat her until she finally admitted that she had slept with this colleague "twice" during a work trip in August. Gotta give her some credit for imagination in saying it was twice. Most cheaters say something more vague "two or three times". Twice is a nice variation on the lie.

Her initial response. The first thing she offered as a solution:

Next morning she just asked flatly, should I pack up and leave? I suppose you want me to get out of the house?

Is that the mindset of a WW who even wants R?

After some more browbeating by M28, she swore on her mother's vagina that she would go completely NC with the asshole.

March 12 (almost six months later): M84 posts here on SI for the first time (actually, the first posts were on March 2, but March 12 was the first "here is me" post). Clearly, despite the pledge of NC, something was bugging him.

It was the wee hours of the morning on a Thursday. He said, in this first post:

After Dday, lots of gas lighting and what not. Took her 4 months before her "withdrawals" tapered off. 2 months ago she "woke up" from the fog. Has been (so far, I know it's early days and premature to judge) an "exemplary" WW that wants to make amends and get us to embark on reconciliation.

"Has been an exemplary WW that wants to make amends."

Exemplary. After her "withdrawal" (from the AP) "tapered off."

Except, six months later, you're trolling here, then posting here, then opening a thread here. Your gut knows something is wrong. M84, do you see how hopium can lead a BH to believe a line of bullshit from a woman? Hopium is the most dangerous drug of a BH, and brother you're hitting that glass pipe hard.

March 30: After much browbeating, M84's WW admits to him that there has been no NC. Whoops, there was no "exemplary". There was no "taper off". There was no "withdrawal". Instead, she has been having drinks, coffee, dinner with the AP, even kissing and hugging him, the whole freaking time since Dday 1. They got away with it because she convinced M84 that there was "tapering off" and "withdrawal", whilst taking it deeper underground.

April 19: M84's spidey sense is still tingling. He continues to browbeat her. Finally, she admits that, after Dday 1, during the time she was being "an exemplary WW", she purchased a hotel room (did she use family money -- your money -- for this?) and played hookey from work to have a sex romp with the AP.

Pretty much everything she has said to you to date about the timeline is likely bullshit, to one degree or another. If there is one thing we have seen a scrillion times here, it's that a cheating WW engaged in this level of flat-out dishonesty has done way more cheating than she has admitted. Is it possible that this is the one single pink unicorn thread where, despite 9 months of lying and TT and admitting only the bare minimum to stop the browbeating, M84's WW has actually disclosed everything? Sure, it's possible. But I'll snort a line of corona virus if that ends up being the case.

I feel I need to close by discussing the pick-me dance. As in, don't do it.


On the day I decided to surprise her by ordering in her favourite food (we are all in lockdown due to covid), just as a nice gesture because I still care, and also perhaps as an indication to her (and to myself) that I will give us a chance.

At 5pm, I wanted her to take a nap (she wasnt feeling very well) and wake up to the nice surprise I have in store for her.

Please stop. You can't "nice" a woman back. It has never worked in the annals of history, and never will.

Friend, you are in infidelity. This site is to help you get out. The two paths are R or D. R requires two participants, one of whom is a remorseful, empathetic cheater who is transparent and honest. You don't have one of those. Not even close. So, at present, your only path out of infidelity is D.

Edited later:

I have said previously that she sounds like a woman who simply does not wish to be married. She's having second thoughts about committing to her first and only and wants to sow some wild oat, experience the world.

I still think that's the most likely explanation, but there is another possible explanation, which is that she's cracking under the pressures unique to your family, including two working parents and a high needs child. She's not up to the task. So she cheats on you (and, since cheating is transitive to family members, on her son), because she can't carry her weight as a wife and mother.

That's a darker view, but one I think you should consider.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 11:11 AM, April 22nd (Wednesday)]

Tred posted 4/21/2020 18:14 PM

Believe me, writing it out is the most productive way to handle it. Ask me how I know. Lol.

I can second this. It wasn't as easy as HT's, as my wife's first timeline was pretty fucking incomplete, and for a while she was...stubborn. At the time, I didn't care about the outcome, I just wanted to know the truth. I went forensic, created timelines, and worked the gaps. I don't really remember the turning point, but I had let go of the marriage by then. It was close to a year and a half past D-Day when the turn came. Just be aware that getting a complete timeline the first time is not only fucking awesome, but I would say rare.

steadychevy posted 4/21/2020 20:51 PM

The timeline helps avoid what has been said. It avoids going off on huge tangents, being lead down the garden path, falling down the rabbit hole, tortuous traps and dead ends.

When the WW just thinks about it in little bits and pieces it doesn't seem so huge. When she has to write it out sequentially with details it starts to show the enormity of it, things she did that she forgot (intentionally or otherwise). The ugliness is revealed. Likely questions will need to be asked to get more details on stuff that obviously gets skipped or brushed over.

She may not have the courage to do it. She's re-written the marriage because she's a good person so it must have been your fault all along, Mach. She may not be willing to take a good, hard, honest look at herself and her behaviour.

I never got a timeline. Over a few years of hopium I asked for one numerous times. I outlined what I wanted in it. I gave her an outline. I asked verbally and written twice. Never got one. The timeline is essential in my opinion to even get to the point of whether you want to try to R or not.

Marz posted 4/21/2020 21:03 PM

D-Day: 28 Sept 2019 (Hooked up w colleague on work trip in Aug over 2 nights)
D-Day 2: 30 Mar 2020 (NC never even started. But no sex)
D-Day 3: 19 Apr 2020 (There was more sex)

Bud you can get a timeline (cheaters lie a lot), have her read books, etc, etc etc.

You want R to badly, sheís went back for seconds, maybe thirds etc. hasnít it gotten clear to you yet you canít save this or fix it?

Wake up. Youíre like a punch drunk boxer whoís gotten hit in the face too many times. At some point after theyíve punched you the third time you need to learn how to duck.

Quit grasping at straws. Let her go.

[This message edited by Marz at 9:06 PM, April 21st (Tuesday)]

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