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ask myself if the answer was likely to help me, hurt me, or make an difference in the outcome.

These are so important to consider and I encourage before thought on all of this Veryhurt! In addition, if there are things that are completely unverifiable, there is no way to know if they are lying or not, unless you choose to do a polygraph I suppose. But honestly, understand what difference it makes to you is important. I do believe that if they can get away with lying, they will do it.

For instance, along with the other stuff, I know my WH had a PA with someone in his profession, she fell hard for him, but he made it clear it was non-emotional for him and that he loved me He does not know that i have met with this woman and she told me everything. She was terribly remorseful about the situation. In her telling, I began to see that everything he tearfully assured me of wasn't even true. He says he always used a condom (FALSE) he says he never spent the night with anyone else (FALSE) so I now know that any of the stuff he says he never did with the others is most likely a lie. I also know he asked for sexual things that he has never even shown an interest in, which, for me, is absolutely the most hurtful thing of all. Although he does not know of my meeting I have told him that I don't believe anything he says about his confession. I don't want to hear him talk. I have told him that I choose to believe the worst about all of it and that he is full of s__t. I have told him that what I know I am SURE is just the tip of the iceberg. I don't choose to tell him, at this time, how I know he is lying, I prefer he think that I am omniscient! HA! My hope is that all this behavior is in the past, and if I find out it is ongoing...well then that would cause me to rethink all of this.

These things are incredibly hurtful. I go back to what our MC said about our M...it will never be the same. It isn't. I choose to believe he is now a friend, and our arrangement (or M) is more of a business contract in which we try to fulfill each others needs. This is how I move forward, until I decide that this relationship no longer serves me. I know this attitude is not for everyone, but I believe he has ruined my ability to trust anyone ever again, and I doubt that I am now capable of a truly healthy, loving relationship with anyone else in the future, even if I decide to leave. So there's that. BTW my WH has never admitted he's an SA...his IC only told him to "be careful." My IC says he can call it whatever he wants but it doesn't change the fact that it sure looks like SA.

However, WH did frequent strip clubs, "befriend" some of them and sleep with them in hotels around town. I know he wined and dined the strippers and bought them gifts, etc...but why would these women do this? He's older, not particularly a catch for someone that age except he has money and charm. I now wonder if he paid them outright. I guess my naive self wants to think it was for the dining and gifts that they slept with him, but now I'm thinking there must've been money transactions involved. Is that how it works? Does anyone know? I feel so stupid

Sami, I pay all of the bills at our house so when my WH escalated to strip clubs, I found out relatively quickly. When Dday #2 happened, my WH spilled most of the truth about the affair that day except the one tiny fact that his "mutual attraction" AP was a stripper. He claimed they met at a restaurant. I didn't believe him for more than a minute. Anyway, he didn't "pay" his stripper that he claimed was attracted to him.

He didn't "pay" her, but he did give her money to pay rent, buy food for her children, buy tires for her car, plus gifts, dinners etc.... Did he pay her for services? No. Did she receive money? YES Did the relationship end when the money dried up? YES

[This message edited by delilah2016 at 6:41 PM, February 27th (Wednesday)]

So, a couple of things came up. My husband told me a few weeks ago about a sexual assault on him while in middle school, by peers. Yet, when I was reading his 12 step work he described it very differently, as though he was a participant albeit an unwilling participant. See, he blames himself. He should have been able to fight them off. My new therapist pointed out that that incident probably shaped his attitude towards sex. Explains things a bit.

They are really, really screwed up people.

I think sometimes they have to remember things a certain way so its not "as bad" or they tell themselves whatever they need to to feel better about it or compartmentalize it.

Right. But the shame he has held on to has contributed to his dysfunction. He was a hurt little boy but he thinks he was responsible.

delilah2016: That is absolutely true. I suppose this is a way for them to think they weren't actually trading money for sex. How crazy is that. My WH was bewildered when he realized his favorite considered him a "sugar daddy." I think his feelings were hurt. HA! Unfortunately I did not pay the bills, so it took me a while to figure this out, but I began digging and I dig regularly now so...My WH actually considered one of them his "therapist" and asked her young self how to make his marriage better. She suggested buying me flowers oh, and sleeping with her I guess...because that always helps!

Lifeexploded: yes they compartmentalize and tell themselves it isn't that bad. Upon Dday I yelled at him for sleeping with "whores" and he literally jumped out of his seat! He also called them dancers, not strippers, which drove me nuts. Talk about sanitizing the situation. He insisted in the beginning he had an A with a waitress..yeah, right, I found out what kind of "waitress"

What does he say now? That it was immature, selfish, and that he's sorry he ever got caught up in it. I guess the phrase "caught up in it" bothers me, like he was snared or something. It seems not to speak to his willing participation as I'd like. And of course he does think that he wouldn't have sought out these things if he were happy at home so...there's that. But I do not own his choices, he had other options. Whatever.

Funny thing here is that I'm the one with the past history of sexual abuse, not him. I've only ever been betrayed through sex, doubt I'll ever have a healthy relationship where that is concerned. Don't even know if I care at this point.

"Caught up in it". Ugh. I am sure my wh has said something similar. On, yes, here's one "I know I done wrong." (Bad southern grammer, lol.) It drives me crazy when he says crap like that. He acts like he stepped on the cats tail or got caught with his hand in the cookie jar or something.

My WH actually considered one of them his "therapist" and asked her young self how to make his marriage better.

Sigh. Where to start with how much is wrong here. I don't think I'll ever be able to understand how active addicts think: how delusional they are. The minimization, rationalization, justification...I just can't wrap my mind around it.

If it wasn't so pathetic and painful, it would be laughable.

I'm so sorry we have to face the pain of these betrayals.

ashestophoenix

WOW! I haven't been on here for awhile. Just read the last two pages. I can relate to so many of you.

My WH cut me down too. He once said, "You're okay but your thighs are a little heavy". I was 29 years old, 5'9" and 135 lbs. WTF!

Dday, I called him extremely upset after finding his searches. (Didn't know everything yet) He was working 300 miles away but came home a day later. He said he told his boss, "MOMMA" is pissed and I have to go home". Like I'm going to be waiting at the door with a wooden spoon??!!

A few weeks ago, he was home for a weekend. He was sitting in his "chair" as usual watching a western movie. I came out in a new bra and sexy panty and started doing exercises on the living room floor in front of him. (My nightly ritual but usually in my sweats) Just simple lunges, leg lifts, push ups.... After about 10 minutes he said something like, "That's a cool movie!, could you tape that for me next Wednesday?" I got up and went and changed into my sweats! I was pissed and hurt! Later I asked him about it and he said, "Yah, I was watching you". And then NOTHING!

If I went to see an IC again, I would definitely not want to re-hash everything I already know about the way I grew up. Just tell me how to get this Shit out of my head! Right Lionne?! I get it. $$$

As far as Kraft? He apparently has (well, maybe had) a gorgeous 39 year old blonde actress girlfriend. It doesn't matter girlfriends! Pigs will be Pigs. No matter what we did or did not do, it was never about us!

[This message edited by bluetears at 10:21 PM, February 28th (Thursday)]

Along those lines, of the FOO issues....

I am now in the process of my IC sorting through my foo issues. It is very long, drawn out and messy. My family is dysfunctional but also very loving and secure. No sexual assault. It seems I’m the only one not thinking this is going to help? Plus, it’s 150 a pop 😣

CAN they skip over it and just teach me not to be codependent (if that’s what it is that keeps me glued to him and keeps making me choose these very unsuitable partners?) ???

CAN they skip over it and just teach me not to be codependent (if that’s what it is that keeps me glued to him and keeps making me choose these very unsuitable partners?) ???

I think you have to work through the process. It helps you to read and journal on your own, and SANON helped enormously with the codependent behavior, even if I couldn't accept all the assertions of the program.

It's been a long journey for me, escaping my FOO issues.

Destroyed-

FWIW..

I grew up in a dysfunctional home too...untreated mental illness, enabling, and of course, teaching me how to be codependent.

It's been so long, now that I don't remember everything.

Would my FOO enter in the discussion. Yes. I remember when 4th therapist was able to use to help me see how my path made sense. But, we didn't talk a whole lot about my FOO, per say.

There were a few strategies I picked up from therapist #3 that really helped me...in terms of learning how to communication (by written word, don't interact when it's just going to escalate, etc). Super helpful for me to remember.

I did come to many conclusions about my relationship with my FOO simply by working through my relationship with DH.

Once I felt heard in life, by my husband, I stopped most of self-destructive behaviors. I also realized that my FOO were not going to ever hear or validate me. Therefore I needed to proceed accordingly with boundaries.

I think boundary work is boundary work. Of course, the particular boundaries are different based on who it is. Boundaries with DH are different than boundaries we're using with my teenaged son. But. the process is still the same.

What is your goal going to be with working through your FOO issues? Do you think that will be a reality? Do you feel like they need to be addressed?

I also realized that my FOO were not going to ever hear or validate me

In my opinion this is a huge realization. Took me till my 40s.

There is an excellent thread here on SI about codependency. It really helped me understand what I had been doing and what more healthy behaviors look like.

Here's the original post by Onlytime.

https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=573775&AP=1&HL=

[This message edited by Lionne at 7:25 PM, March 1st (Friday)]

Second-

My expectations, ultimately, are to rid myself of CoD. If that is what causes me to choose such shit partners and have this illogical and intense fear of losing them...basically I will go through anything to keep them.

I want to have healthy relationships. I want to feel 'equal' and be able to enforce boundaries without guilt and fear. I don't want to be a doormat anymore. I want to feel respected. I don't want to feel like it is ALWAYS *me* that ends up giving in/compromising/eating the shit sandwich.

I sound and seem to be so logical. But then out of nowhere the 'scared, lost little girl' appears and holds onto these men for dear life...that feeling takes over and I lose all ability to demand the things I describe above. But I keep building up the resentment and anger...until one day I have had enough- I pop...go out and rent my own place, have my dad move my stuff, I block the partner on my cell (change cell #'s if necc), change email address, shut down FB, refuse to see them & if they persist, I call the police and ask them to trespass warn them off my property/warn them for a restraining order for stalking/harassment. It's like, even in those big bold acts of courage- it's really not. I DO remove myself and protect myself the best I can...but I never allow myself to be alone w that person or have contact with the person again (or I will end up back w them). I then move on to the next unsuitable choice.

WOW! Just typing that out, I see a lot of patterns that weren't clear before

[This message edited by DestroyedWife80 at 10:02 PM, March 1st (Friday)]

I dunno. I still think you might be able to go at it without diving into your childhood if you don't want to.

I was raised to be codependent with my mom. My parents made it clear that I was responsible for mom's emotional well-being.

Oddly enough, I'm not codependent with my husband.

With him, I knew I have value. My parents, not at all. I never will.

Most of my work with my parents has really been about grieving the relationship. It sucks when you don't get the parents you want/deserve.

I know I do have to be careful about drawing parallels between my husband and my mom..When I'm super hurt..they are one in the same.

Though my husband is dumber than a box of rocks, with regards to his addiction-related choices, he is not my mom.

He is trying, even if he failed, and is now trying again.

My mom would insist there's nothing wrong with her. I'm an only child. She'd rather have NO relationship with her only grandkids then admit that she's got issues she needs to work on, and work on them and be in a relationship with me and my kids.

Some how, through all of this, I was born with a pretty good sense of self. I think that's why I'm not codependent with my husband, but I am with my parents.

If I remember that I have a good sense of self/self esteem...There's really no need to dwell on my folks.

I no longer have to deal with my sex addict ex husband, as I have sole legal and physical custody of the kids.

But some days...I just wonder how in the heck did Prince Charming, salt of the earth, church going Christian charm himself from the repulsive snake that he actually is.

Are most sex addicts molested as children? Is that the base of the behavior? I also seem to notice that it doesn't seem to be about sex. Not really. Like, it seems to be about putting their repressed guilt, shame and hate onto another person, so that they can continue to repress the reasons for their addiction and maintain their false image to friends and family.

Are most sex addicts molested as children?

I don't know about "most" but mine was. He also had controlling mother.

I am also codependent. I am doing much better though. Since dday I have done a lot of work on it, but my codependency allowed me to stay and accept the poor treatment. I just keep going back to the fact that we didn't have kids until we had been married 5 years. I could have gotten out and not brought 2 kids into this craziness. His intimacy anorexia started when we had been married 6 months. If I hadn't been codependent, maybe I could have left..... My codependency goes back to my dysfunctional childhood though. I can blame a lot on my SAWH, but my codependency isn't one of them.

I don't believe that my husband was molested , however he did suffer greatly from bullying...a lot more than I realized even though I have known about it since the beginning of our relationship.

It impacted him far more than I ever knew , and I think this is potentially the root of his issues. He is in the process of working through this and it's just beginning.

I think it's going to be a long road ahead

Athena, I read one of Patrick Carnes's books on sex addicts soon after my first D-Day in 2002, and came across a statistic that 81% of sex addict offenders he'd worked with had admitted to being sexually abused as boys. (However, they have to ADMIT this....not so easily discovered).

I made the mistake of telling my SAWH this "fact" as he was laying there trying to ignore me and go to sleep and his reaction was the closest he has ever come to physically assaulting me! Like, how DARE I suggest that his sainted parents had done such a thing!!

Well, in counseling, and with my being relentless asking him about this - perhaps risking his anger again - one day, he finally cracked and admitted there had been some abuse....and sometimes, he didn't even recognize his mother's incestuous behavior as abnormal, until I would react with shock at a story he would tell.

Over a long time, more of his ugly early memories came out, about his father's father, and perhaps other men in his childhood years on the farm, taking sexual liberties with his body. Just last week, when I asked if he still wanted to say this, he confirmed that his mother had sexually abused him....this is 16 years after D-Day 1....yet he STILL will never raise the subject; he just will no longer attempt to cover it up.

So I think you are spot on about them wanting to keep these ugly memories repressed by "putting their guilt, shame and hate onto another person." Exactly the way it feels to us, too!!

One book I found explained that a child abuse victim (of any kind of abuse) goes through life wearing either a Victim identity, and tends to become revictimized, or decides early to adopt a Perpetrator identity....

My husband was also sexually abused as well as all other types of abuse, in addition to emotional neglect. He never admitted to the sexual abuse until after dday. I knew it had happened to his sisters. I independently confirmed his stories with his sisters (he was forced to do things with them, so they knew) to make sure he wasnt just making it up to gain pity or something. Its very sickening.

You guys help me dissect something. I have been meaning to bring it up. This scenario happens on a regular basis. We were at our 13 year olds track meet yesterday. He saw a couple of other dads that we went to high school with, who have the typical "dad bod". He just has to comment to me that he is so glad he doesnt "look like that" and that we "take care of ourselves". I can tell he feels superior to these other men. All I can think is "if they are faithful to their wives, I would 100% rather have one of them over you." Its all I can do to bite my tongue and not make a snarky remark. What is going on here? I assume he is trying to use his "superior" physique to feel better about himself? Honestly, he is no adonis, and has a bit of a gut himself so that makes it extra funny.