SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

This current thread is doing so much to help heal my soul. 💔❤️

Agree with everything written in the last few posts (well, since I last posted on this thread).

I think what pissed me off most in the recent thread to which we are all referring was that when we voiced our observations (made by several BWs) about BWs seeming often ignored and dismissed (except for [some] BHs’ mocking of feminism and stupidly wilful misunderstanding of the concept of bodily autonomy) - that not one BH or fWW addressed that point (of BWs feeling disregarded), thereby perpetuating the disregard that was being remarked on. One WW in particular was too indignantly concerned to address the insult she perceived to have been implied about herself and other fWWS (though I agree she needed to address it) that she chose not to look more thoughtfully behind it at what was really being said - surely something we’ve all learned is to unearth and look at the emotion anger is masking?

Yeah, pissed off right royally here.

And while I’m at it, I have checked many recent general ‘facts’ mansplained to us in these threads - about male sexuality, locker room talk, sexuality equalling love etc. for men - with my H because, as it was continually mansplained to us, we were getting the unfiltered Truth for once here. However, as none of it rings true for any of the men I know I thought I should at least do a poll of one and none of it rang true for him either. (And we’re talking about a fairly red-blooded serial philanderer here). Even the BHs who try to offer alternative viewpoints are often disregarded and dismissed as it does not fit with meta-narratives of emasculated manhood therefore needing wife to be Madonna in church, Mary Porter in the shops, Mary Berry in the Kitchen, and Mata Hari in the bedroom. Deflective accusations of misandry and gynocentrism are becoming as expected as night follows day. One can’t go too deeply into fuller feminist explanation and rebuttal - and how accusations of gynocentrism say pretty much everything about the politics of the man making them - because that goes beyond the grayer borders of sexual politics into political discussion understandably not permitted here. Not that it would make much difference to a discussion if an ‘over sensitive’ BW were making the point anyway.

It’s all been very sadly divisionist in recent months.

Those threads become like a playground fight with cries of ‘fight, fight’ pruriently gathering us all around, like moths to a flame. I really applaud posters who have sensibly stayed away from those threads.

[This message edited by Edie at 5:00 AM, May 26th (Sunday)]

Edie...yes, yes and yes to ALL of it! I was seething at the indignation and protestations of the WW demanding respect. Really? I'd just like to be heard, nevermind demanding a complete and total stranger respects me. But go on with your hurt feelings of being treated like the OW (THAT YOU WERE!)

YEP, I'm so not ready to forgive and look the other way when I come into contact with WP, male or female.

I also don't buy the dynamic of BH wanting his WW to get it like the WWs here and that's what we are seeing/feeling. Were that true, why not the same dynamic for WH and BW? There are several long time and contributing WH here. You don't see BWs fawning over every word they say, praising them and wishing our WH got it like they did. We may be glad for they get it but I'm also not dishing out praise. Good for you for being a decent human being finally. You don't get a trophy for just showing up in my world. You shoulda been that all along.

It's a question of boundaries and to me, further proves that as women we have been conditioned to stay in our lanes but men have little to no boundaries and that is acceptable. When we call them out on it, well, we pretty much get a version much like, "we're just friends" and "I wish my WW was just like her." Indignation. Butt hurt feelings. Excuses. Just stupid ridiculous excuses that feel a hella lot alike...gaslighting! How about we all start gushing over DaddyDom and Zugs and see how that goes over?

And please, like I don't believe the WW aren't eating it all up! Wow, I have so much healing to do because right now, I am angry AF!

Wouldn't be surprised if I get in trouble for this but it is my truth. I am indeed troubled by all of this and sticking up for what I feel which now is part of my healing process. I'm not pointing a finger at anyone and if you think I am, that's on you and maybe you need to dig deeper. It's the dynamic I'm speaking about and I'm not lying. It bothers the hell out of me.

I do feel a little differently, Speed bump, but then I’m much further out than you 😊: I feel that former wayward spouses, of both sexes, have rightfully earned respect and must not be bashed as OWs and OMs, as they are not those any longer. We all have things to learn from each other so privileging any group over another is unwise, and former waywards are welcome across all forums. I understand you are very triggered and so it’s good to say that as place your remarks in context, like OINS and SMS did.

Hopefully we can dish out praise equally not one-sidedly, like wot the few BHs are doing. 😊😊

[This message edited by Edie at 5:41 AM, May 26th (Sunday)]

Edie - I'm not bashing anyone and I think that's where this goes sideways. I'm unhappy with the dynamic. That is my only point. What I'm also not doing is dishing out praise. I find it tasteless. You want to give someone praise? Go for it but I don't have to like it and it can and does make me feel uncomfortable. That's my cross to bear, not anyone else's and I get that. Any self respecting and mature person knows that respect is earned, not demanded. IMO, the more you voice your demands for it, the less you probably actually deserve it.

But go on with your hurt feelings of being treated like the OW (THAT YOU WERE!)

I get that was the general gist, SB, I just wanted to pick up on this, that was all. 😊

Edie, is the comment not true? The point was made over and over again that "we are not your WHs AP!" But most were someone's.

It’s not true for me, in as much as FWWs shouldn’t have to pay penance in perpetuity IMO. At some point they earn the ‘former’ badge. That’s all.

I agree with almost everything said. We don't see that dynamic between the WH and BW here. I have not had any desire to reach out to a WH for anything. I think it is about boundaries.

Silverhopes, I understand now. I don't know when or why the newer BHes are like that, but it is disturbing.

These ideas of everything being about the sex is ridiculous. I don't read past the first 1 or 2 sentences of RIO's posts because they all say the same stupid shit.

FWWs shouldn’t have to pay penance in perpetuity IMO. At some point they earn the ‘former’ badge.

This is true for their relationships with their spouses. This is not true for the rest of the world. An OW will always be an OWto me. Someone who needs to be watched more closely around married men.

I think I had a lot more to say, but can't remember now.

ETA to fix quote

[This message edited by cocoplus5nuts at 9:21 AM, May 26th (Sunday)]

I had never heard of sexual gatekeepers before. I don't understand that. Where di that come from?

Outsourcing everything except sex? Do these guys not have any feelings of love and affection for their wives? I can outsource all the practical things my fch does except for earning money. There is more to our relationship than sex and those practical things. I find it very sad that those men view their Ms that way.

T/j @ SMS

Hi Sister, tried to PM you but it says your at your msg limit

😊

I will make room, Edie.

SMS is popular for the PMs.

silverhopes Since we're talking about opinions being ignored, I wanted to make sure yours were not, so I just wanted to acknowledge the things you posted that really resonated with me.

I've heard people say that it's a great time to be a women, but it doesn't feel that way. Along with #metoo came the backlash, the accusations that women are liars or are making mountains out of molehills, or making it so that men can't even talk to them anymore - so much blame, on top of blame we already carry. It exposed the deeper problems of seeing women as being less credible, or being the ones who "ruin everything" by complaining.

^^ I too have felt this quite a lot. My XH and I got married just a few months before the 2016 election, and I can see how things started spiraling even then. Without getting into the actual politics of it, seeing his response to a lot of the feminist issues that came out after the Access Hollywood tapes were released made me seriously question our relationship. I assumed that the single father of two daughters would be more enlightened in that respect, but damn was I wrong on many fronts. He actually said things like "misogyny doesn't exist unless you talk about it. continuing to talk about it just breathes life into it.." WTF???

I found myself questioning whether we should be married, but I told myself that I committed to this man, and that I should do everything I can to make it work, even if that means getting into deep discussions over issues like this and trying to find common ground. Funny, for someone who claimed to be turned on by arguing with me, his fragile ego couldn't handle it and had an affair instead. He even went so far as to once tell me that he was pushing my buttons on purpose to get a rise out of me. And not just being sarcastic and joking with each other, that kind of banter I appreciate. He literally admitted to doing things that he knew he shouldn't, because he knew it would bother me, and he was testing to see my reaction. That should have been my biggest red flag.

Sometimes I feel like that is what a lot of men think our emotions are - just a game. They want to see how far they can push it. I'm sorry, but if you feel like you can't talk to women anymore because the things you are saying might be misconstrued, then you are probably right. You shouldn't be talking to anyone in a manner that could be construed as any form of harassment. And if the only way you know how to communicate with a woman is in those terms, then you need to learn new forms of communication.

As a woman, I'm finding myself deeply affected by the misogyny as of late, to the point where I'm wondering, just what is good about being a woman anyway? We can't want sex without being shamed or dismissed as not having as great or relevant libidos as men do (this stereotype alone angers me so badly that it's the main reason why I keep taking breaks from SI, because unfortunately that one particular thing keeps coming up on certain threads, and it triggers me so badly), then if we goodness forbid happen to be survivors of sexual assault then we must have either asked for it (which makes no sense - aren't we constantly assumed to lack a sex drive, up until the moment we're assaulted, then suddenly we're presumed to have one?!) or not done enough to prevent it, or else we're "making a big deal about nothing". If we want to work in various fields then we're somehow "feminizing" or changing things. If we talk about things that upset us, then we're "bitching and complaining". And we're never "good enough" as wives or mothers. I hear so much criticism that I forget: what does society respect and admire about women again? Are we valued or even liked at all?

I feel utterly overwhelmed by the generalizations and criticisms we face as women.  That's all. I don't have a clear point, really, just venting I suppose.

^^ Yup. All of this. Overwhelmed is an apt description.

My XH and I were trying to get pregnant in the months leading up to me finding out about the affair. I was understandably upset each time I got my period. I am a deeply emotional person, and would often cry. It doesn't help that the hormones produced during that time make you more prone to crying then anyway. The one person I should have been able to express these frustrations to decided to shut me down instead. I was "too emotional." He actually told me "if you're so stressed out all of the time, you shouldn't be having kids." This coming from the man who has massive anxiety attacks where he can't stop rocking back and forth for hours on end, but refuses to go on anxiety medication and instead self medicates with marijuana, but has sole physical and legal custody of his two daughters. I cannot even count how many times I sat and helped him through his panic attacks, even if that meant sitting silently in the other room and just checking on him every 30 minutes to make sure he was ok.

I fired back at him and said if anxiety automatically disqualifies you from being a parent, then you most definitely shouldn't be one. Not my finest moment, and of course I don't actually believe that anxiety is a reason not to be a parent, but damn if he didn't take that extremely personally. But MY emotions on the subject weren't valid, only his were.

And yes, my XH shamed me for the amount of sexual partners I had prior to him. Tried to say that he had only had sex with 5 or 6 women in his whole life, which I find incredibly hard to believe given his sexual compulsions. But when I claim sex with upwards of 15 men, he tries to make that into a bad thing, that he had no idea I was so "promiscuous," but then also simultaneously use it against me when I wasn't in the mood. For someone who had been with so many men, I certainly wasn't acting like it. Didn't I know that dressing up in lingerie for him "awoke" his high sex drive, he had never felt any of these feelings before me? And shouldn't I be flattered that he is masturbating with my underwear because that shows how attracted he is to me? And isn't waking me up out of a dead sleep at 3am by trying to have sex with me really a compliment? The fact that he still "comes after" me (yes, those were his words, "come after") shows how much he cares about me. Um, contrary to popular belief, I am the only one who gets to decide when and with whom I have sex. I can have a high sex drive, and also not want to have sex with you at any given moment - shocking, I know! It actually completely tanked my sex drive over time.

And not being a good enough wife or mother, that shit really irks me. I feel like for many men good wife = has sex all the time. Like no joke, in a working dad, SAHM situation, if the kids weren't taken care of, house was a mess, cupboards empty, appointments all missed, but they had sex every night, it wouldn't matter. How on earth is that a good partnership?? But based on many of the threads I've seen here, I can't help but wonder if that is what they're after. In my case, I handled all of those things AND worked a 50+ hour work week. Sorry if sex wasn't higher on my priority list than let's say, I dunno, SLEEP. Something I actually biologically need in order to function.

And yes, coco, the sexual gatekeeping thing has come up on multiple occasions. There was even an entire thread with that title recently. It makes me incredibly sad to think that some men view their wives that way. Somehow the "biology" behind libidos is always brought up, the "need to perpetuate the species" and yet nobody acknowledges that women ALSO have a biological need to procreate. So if they for some reason are not wanting to have sex with you, then it is of course possible that there is some biological thing going on with pain, menopause etc., but there could very well be some psychological reason she does not want to have sex. We also have a biological drive to have sex, so if for some reason we don't want to, then there is definitely an explanation for that. Now if she refuses to explore the reasons why and just shuts it down, then of course, that is grounds for some serious, potentially relationship-ending discussion. But treating sex like something that has to even have a gate keeper at all is screwed up on so many levels. The word "choreplay" is thrown around a ton, insinuating that doing things around the house - things they should be doing anyway as a good partner - are just done to "earn" sex. Fuck. That. Shit.

Then there was a t/j in another thread re: how when dealing with infertility, the men feel like they are just being used as a sperm donor. This is something I am particularly sensitive to, as my XH said it to me on a couple of occasions. First off, let's not ignore the fact that many of the men are literally saying that their need to have sex a lot is a biological one, something they just can't avoid, because BIOLOGY! But then when women are choosing to have sex for that very reason all of a sudden that is a turn off. Hmmmm, do they even realize they are now admitting that sex in our modern times has more to do with emotional connection than with biology? The mind literally boggles.

Secondly, can they not possibly understand that this isn't just biology, that this person has chosen you out of the millions of other men on the planet, and she wants her offspring to be half yours, and that should be taken as a giant compliment? Is that not the most romantic thing somebody could say to you? I waited for years for my XH to get a vasectomy reversal because he was the person I wanted to have children with. But apparently having sex when I was ovulating - because I so badly wanted a child with him, that I was willing to go through the hassle of temping, checking cervical mucus, charting, peeing on sticks etc. just to make it happen - was just too much for him to handle. Obviously I'm projecting a lot of my own issues on this particular topic, but damn if that wasn't triggery as hell.

The comment about outsourcing really bugged the crap out of me too. It was specifically talking about how even things like emotional support, talking things through, getting advice etc. could be "outsourced" to other people like friends and family, but sex was the only thing that couldn't. I'm sorry, but when XH and I were together, I valued his opinion more than anyone else's, on everything. Anything good or bad happened in my life, he was the first person I called, every time. Call me crazy, but is that not the point of partnering up with someone for life? That particular thread drove me up a wall. I miss my partner a hell of a lot more than I miss the sex, because the level of connection we had meant that even just our conversations meant more to me than conversations with other people. When something happens, I still have to fight the impulse to call him. It's gotten better with time, but with certain big issues it's definitely still there. When I found out my dad had to have another surgery, the fact that I couldn't call him to talk about it nearly broke me.

I totally get that it's fucked up that their WWs were not having sex with them, then went out and had crazy sex with their APs. But a lot of the language around it seems to treat sex as a "right" that they have, and sorry I'm not sorry, you do not have the "right" to anyone's body but your own. They also constantly bring up physical touch as a love language, without acknowledging that there is a hell of a lot more to that love language than just sex. If you don't value hugs, back rubs, a pat on the back, holding hands etc. just as much, then physical touch is not your damn love language. Trying to pass off sex as a love language is so messed up for those of us whose LL is actually PT.

Obviously there are BHs here who I don't think view things that way - Bigger, Stevesn, sisoon etc. - who do try to be a mediating force. But their opinions are often drowned out by the alpha ones.

As a BW, after reading a lot of these threads I feel like I was just a glorified sex worker, and I was fired because I wasn't doing a good enough job. Intellectually I know that's not true, but it certainly feels that way when I am in my darker moments. I'm sure it's also harder for those of us who were in relationships with sex addicts, as the sexual compulsions/obsessions were much more obviously at the forefront. If I had just shut up, had sex all the time, and never voiced any of my concerns about anything else, then everything would have been fine. But that's no way to live.

Anyway, back to more BW specific issues - have you found that your sex drive has gone up after the separation and/or R? I have personally been having a ton of sex dreams (unfortunately about my ex, as I haven't been with anyone else to wipe the slate clean). I really don't get it, but it's driving me up a wall, because I don't feel ready to date AT ALL, and I feel like anyone I attempted to date right now would just be collateral damage, but damn if I'm not horny as hell for no apparent reason. Just another confusing thing to throw into this healing process. I'm sure I would be just as confused if my sex drive went back up while I was trying to R. It's incredibly unsettling that the person who hurt me so badly is the person I'm dreaming about. It feels masochistic to be honest.

Yes, I could go out and seek sex with someone right now, and that might numb the pain and get rid of the loneliness for a couple of hours at best. But it would creep right back in as soon as the dopamine hit wore off. I know if I wanted to, I could get dressed up and go to just about any bar and find someone to have sex with. But that's not really what I want right now. More than anything a big hug would be damn nice.

Sorry again for always long posting. I blame my English background, I'm always writing a dissertation. If anything, this is like journaling for me. I know those who don't want to read can just pass it up and move on, but I end up apologizing every time anyway. Oh well.

As a BW, after reading a lot of these threads I feel like I was just a glorified sex worker, and I was fired because I wasn't doing a good enough job. Intellectually I know that's not true, but it certainly feels that way when I am in my darker moments. I'm sure it's also harder for those of us who were in relationships with sex addicts, as the sexual compulsions/obsessions were much more obviously at the forefront. If I had just shut up, had sex all the time, and never voiced any of my concerns about anything else, then everything would have been fine. But that's no way to live.

Not even that would have worked...I tried to have sex all the time and got turned down because porn, his hand, and prostitutes were apparently way more fun than the kind of wife that men here claim they dream of. If his cheating had been just sex, he'd have never had any reason. He had deeper issues.

The only time my sex drive plummetted was after DDay. Had a moment of HB, but after that, I couldn't enjoy the sex. The ONS I had after I left showed me how back in action it was and now it's all kinds of back, but like you I'm keeping a reign on myself and abstaining until I get myself more healed.

[This message edited by DevastatedDee at 9:07 PM, May 26th (Sunday)]

How about we all start gushing over DaddyDom and Zugs and see how that goes over?

The reason I don't (though Zug in particular impresses me with his bluntness sometimes and I do like his posts a lot) is that I am not living in their homes with their wives and I don't know how the actual dynamics are. I also can't praise anyone for figuring their shit out AFTER they wrecked other people. Like my WH and his recovery...he expected a lot more praise from me than he would have gotten. I'm sitting there bleeding from a thousand wounds that he inflicted and I just could not bring myself to praise him for putting down the knife. I'm far from perfect and I know that people can change. I just can't be the one to trust them and be the best support. That is never likely to be my role. I would rather lift up my brothers and sisters who have been on the BS side of infidelity.

Dee, yeah I guess in a way I'm happy to know that my sex drive wasn't broken. I seriously thought it was about age or something, I couldn't understand what was up with me. My (former) gyno even prescribed some anti anxiety meds to take before each time we had sex, suggested that there might be some trauma that was preventing me from getting turned on (he didn't know about the SA). XH took a lot of offense to that. I never did end up taking the meds, I felt like that would doom our sex life if I had to start being medicated for it. Now I know I was just in such a stressful situation with the SA that my body had shut my drive down out of self preservation I guess.

Now that I'm out of it, all of those feelings have been turned back on again. I just don't have anyone to act on them with. Unfortunately all of my former FWBs are married or in serious relationships now, so I can't even call an old standby. Which unfortunately means I will have to re-enter the dating world at some point. Ugh.

I know it's also a stupid thing to focus on, but I'm deeply angry that I have to go back to having sex with condoms. Just another fun little gift from my XH.

I know going out looking for a ONS would not be healthy right now, but damn if it's not tempting as hell.

My neighbor had a cookout and my ONS was darned near delivered to me, lol, but I haven't gone out looking for one. I opened a dating website a couple of months ago not because I wanted to date, but I wanted to gauge my feelings about it and I shut it down within an hour because everyone I saw on there looked like a married liar cheating on his wife and that gut reaction tells me that I am so not ready to get out there. It's "me" time for now and that's almost certainly for the best.

The ONS was a great thing for me because of the nature of my WH's cheating. I'm 45 and he was sleeping with prostitutes in their 20s. The ONS was a very built sexy 26-year-old marine and I didn't have to pay a dime for that nor take it upon myself to pursue it. So psychologically, I call that a huge win for me, lol.

I guess whether it's a healthy thing or not depends upon the circumstances.

Oh man, lest anyone think we only dislike the BH treatment of BW, might I point out the toxic masculinity from BH to BH.

I have seen the word "cuckold" too many times recently. They imply that men trying to save their marriages are willing participants in cuckolding fantasies. I mean damn, I know sometimes we need some tough love to get past the pick me dance when we first get here, but shit, is that really necessary?

Maybe that is why the dynamic has shifted. If someone came into my JFO post and told me I was asking for it, I would have left right away. No wonder the thoughtful men who are truly reeling end up exiting, leaving us with a few old timers, and a hell of a lot of alpha males.

It is sad, because I end up not wanting to comment on these BH JFO threads, because you know, we're women and we "just don't understand". But damn if watching all of the men chime in with such harsh "advice" to their fellow BHs isn't really hard to watch.

It is sad, because I end up not wanting to comment on these BH JFO threads, because you know, we're women and we "just don't understand". But damn if watching all of the men chime in with such harsh "advice" to their fellow BHs isn't really hard to watch.

Yes, this. (And lots of other things you both said but this particularly in relation to SI). They don’t see that they are just projecting and sublimating, and don’t have the tools and resources for that kind of self awareness, but advocate the same kind of emotional stuntedness that they are themselves portraying, it’s like the ‘taciturn cowboy shooting first asking no questions’ image prevails as a male model in your culture across there. stevesn is doing a great job (Bigger and Sissoon always have but both seem to sometimes get the chauvinist males backs up) at making his points in fair empathetic ways. I’m refusing to use the word ‘alpha’: that ranking has now been discredited as ever existing in wolf groups, and should IMO no longer be used a some kind of positive with which some males can hold and prop themselves up as superior to others. Let’s just call the chauvinism and machismo for what it is.

I too tend to avoid those threads because the aggro (Male posters come out of the woodwork from nowhere, it’s as if a siren call goes up) then infects my day too much, but I wonder if we shouldn’t now create our own little army of worker bees spreading lifegiving pollen throughout such threads to counter the aggressive wasps and their stings.

But it’s hard work and I feel more effective IRL than on those threads, not being a ‘bro n’all’, so tend to reserve my limited energy for where I can make most difference.

Hopefully, other threads can help those BHs in JFO who’ve been run off from posting but who might still lurk. There’s anyway many more compassionate BHs who also post sound advice than just stevesn, Bigger, and Sissoon - in fact happily too many to list here - I only mentioned those three again as you did, Holding.

[This message edited by Edie at 2:29 AM, May 27th (Monday)]