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Opinions please!

I just received an email from stbx. He's booked a "family" vacation for himself, gf and her kid, and one of our two kids over Christmas vacation. This is the first I'm hearing about it.

We split the break - as written in our agreement - with the boys with him on Christmas eve, with me on Christmas day and then the balance of the first half of school holiday. He then gets the second half of school holiday. So he should be picking them up on Jan 1st and returning home on Jan 8th. Instead - he's booked a vacation in mexico for them all for Dec 26 - Jan 4. Tells me in the email that youngest is 16 and can decide for himself.

I'll add here that he does this often. No discussion with me. And books and then threatens if I don't go along with it.

Obviously this is going to be a tough one to deal with. DS cannot stand the gf. She is insane really - we've been watching a lot of the Office on Netflix and he keeps saying that she's just like Jan. (annoying and bitchy). But I know he'll want to go.

Anyone experience what this will mean, in terms of court, if I just say no? We have plans throughout my share of the holiday and I've already booked for us to spend a couple of days away (ds doesn't know as it was to be a surprise) Thoughts please?

I haven't talked it over with DS yet. Would like some advice from other parents before I start the conversation.

Thanks!

That's always a gray area. You certainly are within your rights to adhere to the court approved agreement, but on the other hand, if there ever comes a time when you need HIM to be flexible he would probably hold it against you and stay rigid. Flexibility works both ways.

Your DS is old enough to decide, and I would simply sit him down and discuss his options, including your plans. Yes, it ruins your surprise, but it puts DS in control. That way you are not the bad guy.

I always left decisions up to my DD (she was 16 when we D), and never regretted handling it that way.

Xh tried this once. Got the kids all excited for a big trip over 4th of July staying on a lake. I told them Dad knows the rules.

I simply emailed a copy of the D decree to xh. Showing it was my week.

Xh/OW were pissed!!!! I loved it! They even came to my house yelling at me in the driveway! I simply called 911. (D papers say NO harassment of me).

They must have called their atty who told them they were in the wrong.

So, just send them an email, when they send you threatening emails, call your atty. ASAP. Best to stop this crossing of respectful boundaries now.

THIS IS CHRISTMAS you are talking about!!!!!

They screwed up by buying the tickets b4 talking to you.

Do not give up your CHRISTMAS time, call your atty if you have to.

[This message edited by homewrecked2011 at 7:30 PM, December 2nd (Saturday)]

If your kids. We’re younger I would adhere to the decree. But they are almost of age. I say let the kids decide.

Sucks to be him and spend all that money with talking to you first. The break is outlined in the decree. Send it to him, with nothing else. He's no longer your spouse, he doesn't get to dictate how you spend your holiday with your child.

Thanks for all of your responses so far.

I haven't spoken to ds about this yet but will find time tomorrow. I really don't think he will want to go though. He really cannot stand his dad's gf - he spent a week with them on vacation this past summer and said when he got back that there was no way he would ever do it again. But until I talk to him I won't know for sure. Stbx could very well have convinced him or could be pressuring him.

If ds doesn't want to go...

Is there anything I have to worry about regarding him taking me to court on this? This trip is just over 3 weeks away and this is the first I'm hearing about it. It interferes with my time on the schedule. He isn't asking me if I can be flexible with my time - he states it's happening and he'll send the itinerary tomorrow.

minniegal - Your xwh can indeed try to take you to court on this, but, then, he can try with most any accusation he produces - it doesn't mean he would win anything. (His first hurdle would be convincing his lawyer, or any lawyer, to represent him in this nonsense; those lawyers that are ethical won't do it.)

Here's the thing: he gave you a gift in that he put it in writing, exactly when and how he notified you of it, and will, or did, give you in writing his itinerary plan as well, and I assume it was/will be in the same type way, where he simply tells you how it will be, without regard to the fact he is infringing on your parenting time. As you have it outlined in the custody agreement that you have X dates, and he is making plans on those dates with your child, without getting agreement from you first, he is the one in the wrong. So long as you still have the child available for xwh to have his time with him, as dictated by the order, you won't be doing anything wrong. It is not your fault xwh messed up and planned things for child when xwh doesn't have the child, per the agreement without first discussing with you; it is further not your fault if xwh is not able to get the child on the dates he does have parenting time, because xwh is out of town at the time. If xwh asks for reasonable accommodations on your part so he can get the child when xwh's usual time begins, you should agree - to reasonable requests. (Having to drive six hours, even round trip, to deliver the child to xwh is not "reasonable"...) That said, if the child, at 16, refuses to go at any point, you can't force him, and you should simply document it somehow - have the child text/email you and/or xwh to say he doesn't want to go, or something along those lines. (Oh, and, bless him, xwh also gave you, and the child, the gift of conceding, in the email, that the child can decide for himself; he put that in writing, so he really cannot then turn to the judge and say, "I only wrote that because I thought for sure son would say he wanted to come; I didn't mean he could choose not to come....") This helps protect you, should xwh decide to try to take you to court on it.

And, I would not actually give the child a choice here, since there are two get-aways planned over the same time by each parent; having the child choose means choosing between parents/trips, and that could be problematic both for the child and before a judge. (If you did not also have plans over the same time, then I might give the child the choice, though.) I would simply state to xwh that he needs to review the parenting time schedule again, and inform him you already have plans during your time with the child that cannot be rescheduled, but you will have the child available, as directed in the order, when xwh's time with him is scheduled. It may make xwh mad to be held to the order, and to respecting you/your parenting time (a form of victim-blaming, if you analyze it), but, really, you are the one with the right to be upset - just respond calmly, though, as losing your cool won't be helpful, especially if xwh does try to take it to court.

I'll echo Phoenix1's comments on this...lay it all out for DS and let him make a fully informed decision.

The Judge will say to go by the decree. Given your son's age, I would let him decide. But I would be clear with him that he doesn't have to go, if he doesn't want to. It isn't his dad's time.

As Wiser noted, he can always take you to court for anything, but PREVAILING in this particular situation is highly unlikely. You have the legal right to say no, and that you are adhering to the terms of the agreement. That's why you have an agreement to begin with - so both parties can plan their time accordingly. The fact that he didn't is not your problem, legally, and it sucks to be him if you say "no." He can bitch and moan all he wants, but he doesn't have a leg to stand on with such short notice. His arrogance and bad planning does not trump your allotted time.

But, because DS is 16, I would give him the choice. I am basing that on my DD's maturity and need for self-determination when she was 16. Had I unilaterally made the decision for her, she would have resented me for that. She wanted to be treated as the almost-adult mature young lady she was. So you need to handle it with your DS in whatever way you feel is best. But DON'T feel compelled to give in to your ex's bullying!

And, I would not actually give the child a choice here, since there are two get-aways planned over the same time by each parent; having the child choose means choosing between parents/trips, and that could be problematic both for the child and before a judge. (If you did not also have plans over the same time, then I might give the child the choice, though.

This was my initial thought. It puts the kid in a very uncomfortable spot disappointing one of the parents.

But, you know your child the best and if he can handle the choice.

You also have years more to go dealing with this man, and this is not the first time your ex is trying to control you and not respect the decree.

Maybe it is time for you to take a stand (since you have a trip planned), he is in the wrong, and I hope you have it in your decree that the offending party pays legal fees for the other party, just in case he takes you to court.

And hooray, it is all in writing!!! Please don't feel badly about standing up for your rights. After all, you planned your trip around the decree.

Let us know if we need to get out the popcorn!

[This message edited by Chrysalis123 at 7:18 AM, December 3rd (Sunday)]

I would give DS the choice, but I would tell him if he did not want to go that you will enforce the custody agreement and not bring his choice into it. You know DS best. Present your plans and ruin the surprise, but if you can alter them for another time I would tell him that is an option.

Ultimately in a perfect would a decision like this would boil down to what is best for DS. If gong on a great vacation, even Disney dad, is better for him I would say ok. If DS needs the stability of an enforced decree, I would turn down XH.

I would also worry about getting DS back after Christmas Eve after XH doesn’t get his way.

Well we stayed up quite late last night talking about it. Why do teenagers always get chatty at midnight?? lol

He clarified a few things for me. His dad told him three weeks ago that he had booked a trip to Mexico over the school holiday. He had bought him a ticket. He needed to go because spending quality family time was important. That he was 16 and it was his choice but if he didn't go he would not be seeing him over the holidays.

DS told him that stbx needed to speak to me about it first because he knew what it would mean to the "schedule". That he would like to go but only if stbx would get an agreement from me so that he wasn't put in the middle of deciding between his parents. He told him to do this 3weeks ago and hasn't heard a word about it since.

I'll add here that DS likes to be informed about everything. He wantss to feel some control in all the insanity that has been his life for the past three years. He hates it when anything comes up that may cause a conflict (and he hates the idea that he could be disappointing one or both of his parents) and he likes to be part of the decision-making. At the same time he likes the routine that has been set up with the parenting agreement. He knows where he is and who he is with. BUT - he told both of us when he turned 16 that he doesn't need to stick to it if he doesn't want to and if something came up with his friends that would be the priority over his parents. As it should because he's 16! He has a pretty healthy balanced way of dealing with it.

Stbx does not have a great track record of showing up. He's missed half of his weeknights over the past two months (he gets one evening a week) because he has "other plans". This upcoming weekend DS wants to go camping with his scout group and stbx is giving him a hard time because it's on "his" weekend. Has told him he can't make plans on "his" time. Stbx has the option to go if he wants to - but he doesn't. So the schedule only works when it works for him.

We have talked a lot more about his argument with stbx about the camp weekend prior to this. DS simply said "It's been three years and I'm used to the schedule. It's time dad got used to the schedule too."

We left it last night that we would sleep on it before I replied to his dad.

Your DS sounds awesome.

Your STBX is a POS who is ensuring his son is going to detach from and hate him.

We have the same xh!!!!

Mine pitched a fit bc the city Christmas parade was on his night and both sons were in marching band. He said their activities interfered with his time!

---------

Regarding the camping trip on his weekend:

Just so you know, one NYE xh would not return youngest son, he was 13 at the time. I had the police meet me. They told me at 13, son did not have to go w me,, even though I had the divorce papers. If he said no, I would need to leave it at that and go back to court. As it turned out, son said ok. So, if your DS has an issue with the camping trip, he can say "Dad Im going on my camping trip". Also, it's not YOU trying to take him on the trip on his Dads time. It's a scheduled activity for a 16 yr old.

Like others have said here, anyone can take anyone to court for any reason. That doesn't mean they will win. You are following the D decree on the Christmas time, I don't see an attorney taking this case. And the court date would be in April or May anyway.

Good you had a talk with your DS. Your STBX appears to be a manipulative bastard. He is guilting your DS to comply with him. Further, I think he's doing it on purpose as a power play. DS can choose for himself but he's in deep shit if he doesn't comply.

There's an agreement that lays out the parenting arrangement. Yes, flexibility is a worthwhile compromise. But this will continue as it has in the past because STBX want to prove his control. Hopefully DS sticks to the arrangement as he's said it works best for him.

One of the things that bothers me about custody agreements is the assumption on the part of the WS that he can pick and choose when he wants to comply.

And then assumes that if he doesn't want to do his scheduled visitation that the other parent will be there to care for the child.

If puts you in a terrible position because you're obviously a loving and devoted good mother and you'd never leave your DS out to dry but you're also divorced from that man for a reason and for him to continue to manipulate you and use you would be just about intolerable.

I don't know what advice to give you because there is no easy answer. But I will tell you that the court would not force you to change the agreement. XWH knew the dates and should have booked the trip accordingly. Alternatively, he could have asked you ahead of time to move some dates around.

It's awful for a father to tell his son he has to change agreements if he wants to see him for Christmas. I hope you son is mature enough to realize that not seeing his Dad on Christmas will not be the end of the world and that he shouldn't feel threatened or manipulated or BULLIED into doing it Dad's way. It seems to be Dad's way or the Highway. Maybe this can be a learning experience - put his foot down and refuse to be manipulated. Or go if it sounds fun to him. Maybe he would meet other kids at their hotel and have a lot of fun.

And if you agree to that, then you go to your attorney and find out what you can do to prevent this from happening again because it really isn't fair at all.

Bah humbug, All I want for Christmas is for all non-remorseful cheaters to get itching powder in their underwear and come down with a wicked case of untreatable halitosis and develop a huge boil on their butt.

And one more wish: that a certain 16 yr. old go along and be a total and complete uncooperative brat and figure out how to make himself puke, preferably so happens when she's all dressed up and it lands on her and maybe even in her hair. And whine and complain and be too hot and then too cold and not like the Coca-Cola and beg for them to find a store that sells YooHoo drink. And Mallomars. And Bit o Honey candies (trying to think of obscure ones that would be hard to find).

I wasn't clear from your post. Was the 19 yr. old invited and is he going?

[This message edited by josiep at 1:09 PM, December 3rd (Sunday)]

I thought that when a parent takes a minor child out of the country that they had to have a letter of permission from the parent that is not traveling.

Since your ex's communication to you didn't contain any of the following words, "please, could you?", would you mind?, thank you for your consideration", etc., then you do not have to give your permission. Let this be a lesson to him on how to conduct post-divorce parenting. I really hate bullies like him that think they can just make demands and everyone is supposed to change their plans to accommodate them.

You know your son and his approach to things. But, I was a child of divorced parents and would have been really uncomfortable being put into the position of choosing. It is a no-win situation.

Oh right!

My grandaughter went to Canada and even though her dad has zero custody, there was in fact paperwork to fill out and file with whatever agency does that. Notified as well by a notary.

Does he have a passport? Has the paperwork been done? I'm not familiar with what is required with Mexico, just Canada.

I wasn't clear from your post. Was the 19 yr. old invited and is he going?

I just spoke to DS19 - He was told of the trip a couple of days ago. Stbx told him they were all going away and he was welcome if he wanted to join them...but he assumed he would be busy. So DS just said "yup...I'm busy".

Does he have a passport? Has the paperwork been done? I'm not familiar with what is required with Mexico, just Canada.

Stbx is required to provide me with an itinerary and a travel consent letter that I need to return signed and notarized. (this would be for any travel outside Canada) DS has a passport - I keep all of our passports and other important papers in a safety deposit box at a local bank.

Email is going out tonight. I'm sure the tantrum and threats will begin soon after.