SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

One of the very important things I have discovered about participating in SI is the insight and alternative thoughts that have been so generously offered. I’ve been flooded with new ideas, with innovative ways of approaching my difficulties, and empathetic ears that listen without judgement of my far too long struggle.

Everyone’s thoughts and insights have been particularly helpful in assisting me in recalibrating my thinking which has brought me some success where I felt I was a hopeless failure. Seeing things through different, multiple sets of eyes and points of view has been a precious gift that I do not plan on squandering.

However, the reason for the post that I am penning now is my wanting to address Superesse’s insight, and her followed up question concerning two comments I made on a thread that was not mine. I felt it important to start a separate post out of consideration of the other member. What I am seeking is to follow up on her thoughts as well as listen to what others might think.

I had said: (For context, my mom and sister, from day one, were cruel to my wife and our two kids.)

After several decades of trying to work things out, once my dad passed, I cut my mom and sister out of my and my family’s life. We never spoke again right up to both of their passings.

And prior to that I had mentioned:

...clinging to the pain of my wife's affair as if it were a life-preserver, it is baffling.

Which led to Superesse asking:

Asterisk, sometimes when people tell their life story, they will share what to them seems like just "another piece of the puzzle" but will strike an objective observer as pretty big deals. Let me put two of your key pieces together to let you see what I mean:
and
Don't you think the total alienation from your female blood family members only enhance your emotional investment in this marital partner, beyond what you might have otherwise invested in her? Just a thought...

Her question of whether I would have been less invested in my wife if I hadn’t been alienated from my mom and sister has my mind frozen. I can’t seem to either advance or retreat from her question!

I’m asking myself is she suggesting that it is a good thing or a bad thing to have enhanced emotional investment in one’s spouse? Is there such a thing as being "too" invested in one’s life partner? If so, is that something that needs to be reduced so as to not be harmful to oneself? If so, what does that look like? When I made my vows wasn’t I making a public statement that I was "all in"? That I would do everything in my power to work through any and every difficulty and trouble no matter what the sacrifice or pain?

What am I missing?

Asterisk

This place is pretty magical in that collective wisdom, isn’t it? Glad you have joined in.

I was the OP for a long thread titled "What is Marriage?", and I think the nuanced discussions there could be helpful to you as you try to unparalyze yourself from Supresse’s spell

When I made my vows wasn’t I making a public statement that I was "all in"?

You may have, but it seems clear that your wife wasn’t saying that. Or if she was, she didn’t have what it took to enforce it. I, too, was all in on marriage. I could not envision ever divorcing, I believed that we would work thru anything. But she didn’t, and we are now divorced as a result.

I believe it is possible to over-value marriage. In fact that is basically what I mean in my signature, that people are more important than the relationships they are in. You, good sir, are of greater import than your marriage. Even before it was marred with betrayal. Do you value yourself as much as you wax poetic about your marriage? If not, why not?

Inkhulk,

Do you value yourself as much as you wax poetic about your marriage? If not, why not?

When my fiancé and I were standing at the alter giving our vows, we were simultaneously performing a ritual.

Inkhulk, I think the ritual will answer your question best.

Before us was a candelabra holding three candles. One placed in the middle, higher than the other two. The center candle was not lit but on either side, there was a lit candle, one representing my wife, one representing me. As we finished our vows of lifetime fidelity and commitment, we each took a candle and together lit the middle one representing our union.

What I think might answers your question best is - then we each blew our candles making the statement that we were no longer two individuals but one person. The marriage was greater than our individual selves.

I don’t subscribe to this quite as legalistically (But almost) as I did when I was a Christian. But at the time of D-day I was100% committed to the ideal that the marriage was greater than our individual selves.

These days if I were to do the same ritual, I would make only one change. When the candles lit the middle one we then would place the three lit candles side by side with none of the three standing higher than the others.

Asterisk

P.S. Forgive my ignorance, but I don’t know what wax poetic means. Care to explain?

My views on marriage were also highly influenced by the Christian culture I was in. Lots could be said about that, but probably not easily keeping with the spirit of community guidelines.

When I was trying to R with my xWW, one of the MC’s had us using material that talked about the "Us", effectively a personification of the marriage, and we were supposed to think of it as being as important as ourselves. I found it less than helpful. I was betrayed. She was the betrayer. Where does this "Us" fit in? It’s a construct, not real, how can it be as important (or more important) than flesh and blood me?

All models are wrong, some are useful. Maybe that candle ritual that you performed was highly un-useful in conveying meaning into your marriage.

P.S. Forgive my ignorance, but I don’t know what wax poetic means. Care to explain?

I meant it in the sense of you speaking eloquently and positively. May have been an awkward turn of phrase.

[This message edited by InkHulk at 6:54 PM, Sunday, November 30th]

Wait....did I do something bad?! I did briefly attempt to refine my message on the other thread. Maybe that didn't help...

So we could dig way too deep into humanity's psychosocial needs for community, intimacy and family here, LOL.

It's just that what I saw in Asterisk's story about having to break off his adult relationship with his mother somewhat reflected my own MIL's behavior after her golden boy chose to marry me. Instead of being happy for him/"us," it was almost sad if not a stereotypical mother being possessive of a son whom she refused to accept might marry anyone; he was to stay single forever - or else possibly marry the girl next door and give her grandbabies, but not marry an older woman in another country! (His family ties were too tight to begin with, and that was one reason our MC proposed for his decision to emigrate, besides his CSA at her hands and others in his FOO! Way TMI, I'm sure.) But his younger brother's older wife once shared with me the very similar problem she had with our MIL - and they lived just two miles away!

Perhaps, if you are interested in an academic psychologist's view on the importance of various human relationships to the person, check out Bronfenbrenner's Ecological Systems Theory. Like the planets orbiting the sun, we (as our own "sun" if you will) have differing levels of closeness to (a) our spouse, (b) our immediate family (the next closest "planet"), then the next ring out is usually (c) our close friends, daily associates and then further out from us, therefor usually less IMPACTFUL emotionally, we fit into a larger community, our country and finally to the larger world.

I just found that theory so very helpful to explain why I was suffering so severely: many of my "outer orbits" had already collapsed due to deaths in the family and D before I married this man at age 46. The thinking goes that when we lose one "orbital zone" if you will, it tends to put more pressure on the remaining "planetary system" of our emotional/social world.

This theory is closely related to what is now called Family Systems Theory. Deep stuff.

I think it's important to strive for balance in life. Marriage certainly requires investment. At the same time, being invested in one's self is equally important, albeit a career or life pursuit. When we over-invest in one, the other naturally suffers. Workaholics, for instance, neglect their families. Trad wives neglect themselves.

I've been to weddings in which the candles are used as you've described. While I think it's a lovely ceremony, I also find it disconcerting. A marriage is an idea, not a thing in and of itself. It doesn't think or feel, have a heartbeat or emotions. Even carefully defined, it remains subjective. Each spouse will have a different take on what the marriage means to them, how they each value their own respective contributions and those of their spouse.

Think of how various people react to infidelity. Some folks will head straight to divorce, no questions asked. Some will attempt reconciliation. Others will stick around in limbo, clinging to hopium.

When it comes to reconciliation, I generally advise betrayed spouses to climb up onto the proverbial fence, get nice and comfy, and sit there until they've carefully assessed which side of the fence has the greener pasture. In words, get as comfortable as possible with both R and D.

On a side note, I tend to like the phrase: wax rhapsodic.

Unhinged

When it comes to reconciliation, I generally advise betrayed spouses to climb up onto the proverbial fence, get nice and comfy, and sit there until they've carefully assessed which side of the fence has the greener pasture. In words, get as comfortable as possible with both R and D.

Amen

Inkhulk,

…but probably not easily keeping with the spirit of community guidelines.

I know, and I try to be careful and yet, my faith, starting in my late teen up to my mid-40s was the center of my universe, everything revolved around it. It was infused into every aspect of my life and marriage. To leave faith out, is to leave out the richness and the rot of my story.

I also made the mistake of turning to marriage counseling versus individual therapy. It was helpful in many ways, but it was equally harmful. My better plan would have been to seek individual counseling.

I was betrayed. She was the betrayer. Where does this "Us" fit in? It’s a construct, not real, how can it be as important (or more important) than flesh and blood me?

True, marriage is a construct, as is fidelity versus betrayal. None of these three are "real" if the description of real is only that which has "flesh and blood". But damn, betrayal of a wayward spouse sure as hell feels real!

In my mind’s thoughts "ideals" are real and some, like family, which is a human construct, are worth sacrificing one’s own needs and even their life if called for. Many committed individuals have sacrificed themselves for lesser things such as their faith, their country, their values, none of which have flesh that when torn they don’t bleed red but to not live up to them hemorrhages self-worth and leaves deep scars.

Thanks for the explanation on "wax poetic" I wasn’t sure if you were suggesting that I was guilty of poetic cleansing, like using cadenced words making something seem pretty that actually isn’t. I plead guilty of such a fallacy. 😊

Asterisk

Superesse,

Wait....did I do something bad?!

No, no, no! Quite the opposite. You have brought up a very important issue that I have to figure my way through. Which is why I felt it important to reach out and ask for others’ thoughts. Am I overvaluing my relationship with my wife due to the loss of my relationship with my mom and sister? That is an insightful and fair question. And I believe that my asking is overvaluing my wife is that a bad thing or a good thing, a question worth exploring. Part of me wants to state that the greater risk is to undervalue one’s spouse not overvaluing it.

Thank you for sharing more of your story and how it connects with some of mine. I am sorry that your mother-in-law treated you so terribly.

check out Bronfenbrenner's Ecological Systems Theory

Thank you for suggesting I look into Bronfenbrenner’s theory. I get this theory from the position of childhood development where the child is the center of his universe. However, as I became an adult I came to believe that there were other things that were to become the center of my universe. Such as God, which I later discarded, and marriage and eventually family. They became greater than me. Am I off center. No pun intended. :) Am I too believe and live by the value that I am the center of my universe? How is that not living a selfish life? Should I not put away childish things and beliefs for the greater good of my family?

Now as to this part of Family Systems Theory:
"Key concepts of family systems theory
Differentiation of the self:

The ability to maintain a sense of self while remaining emotionally connected to the family. A lower level of differentiation means being more dependent on the approval of others."

Okay, now that is something for me to take a really hard, self-evaluation to examine. Am I sacrificing my sense of self for the approval of my wife? Curious question. It is going to take a lot of processing to tease out whether I’m seeking her approval at my own expense or if I pledge in my wedding vows to value her above me as my wife? Please, give me time to process. I’ll get back to you on this.

Asterisk

Unhinged,

I think it's important to strive for balance in life. Marriage certainly requires investment.

Agreed.

At the same time, being invested in one's self is equally important…

Also agree.

When we over-invest in one, the other naturally suffers.

Possibly true-ish. I’ll agree it can be, but is it always a "natural" consequence? Or maybe better said: is placing the marriage commitments above my own needs considered being over-invested?

In fact, I would argue that for a spouse to choose betrayal through sexual infidelity that they can only accomplish this by putting their perceived needs above that of their spouse and marriage. Can we agree on that?

For example, my wife cut me off sexually which put me in great need of sexual intimacy. If I were to put my needs above my vow of fidelity, then would it have made it okay for me to seek sexual release outside of my marriage without her consent? I would say no! Even more poignant, once I was informed of her affair, were all bets off and I was free to screw around? No again. So, I ask, is denying myself of my need for sexual acceptance a sign of "over-investment?" or is it a commitment to something greater than my momentary needs.

When it comes to reconciliation, I generally advise betrayed spouses to climb up onto the proverbial fence, get nice and comfy, and sit there until they've carefully assessed which side of the fence has the greener pasture. In words, get as comfortable as possible with both R and D.

Now that is possibly the best description of how a betrayed spouse would be best served. Settle in for the long haul, get comfortable on the edge while evaluating with either choice (R or D) and once the weighing of the cost verses benefits then, when in full self-control, and the time is right, climb down on the side that will bring you peace and hopefully happiness.

It is not lost on me that what I just said flies in the face of things said above. I am not arguing that I am no conflicted but am wondering if I can hold dear to both concepts.

One more thought. If my marriage were t end, no matter the reason, there is no question that I would be devastated. I’d grief a tremendous loss, one the poet in me, would feel as if the center of my universe was now a cavernous void. But what I am confident about is given time I would survive and prosper. Then the question becomes, would I, like a child does, return myself to the center of my world or place something or someone else there seen as greater than myself?

Asterisk

HouseOfPlane,

When it comes to reconciliation, I generally advise betrayed spouses to climb up onto the proverbial fence, get nice and comfy, and sit there until they've carefully assessed which side of the fence has the greener pasture. In words, get as comfortable as possible with both R and D.

Amen

That’s it! That’s all you got for me!! Dude, REALLY!!!

Asterisk

One more thing. This conversation is far more important to me than it may appear. And, in full disclosure, it hurts me to my core. I don’t know why and that is a signal to me that investigating it with all of you who have thoughts and are willing to share means a great deal to me. I feel as if I am in an internal war between the poet and the stoic which both exists within.

Asterisk

I know, and I try to be careful and yet, my faith, starting in my late teen up to my mid-40s was the center of my universe, everything revolved around it. It was infused into every aspect of my life and marriage. To leave faith out, is to leave out the richness and the rot of my story.

There is actually a lot of latitude here to talk about your own personal beliefs and how they influence your experience and decisions. You run into problems when it steers into a debate over theology. If it helps you, I would recommend that you include the fullness of your story. I suspect I would relate to a lot of it.

True, marriage is a construct, as is fidelity versus betrayal. None of these three are "real" if the description of real is only that which has "flesh and blood". But damn, betrayal of a wayward spouse sure as hell feels real!

Well said. I suppose all these constructs are there to help us make sense, maybe even make meaning of the merely physical.

In my mind’s thoughts "ideals" are real and some, like family, which is a human construct, are worth sacrificing one’s own needs and even their life if called for. Many committed individuals have sacrificed themselves for lesser things such as their faith, their country, their values, none of which have flesh that when torn they don’t bleed red but to not live up to them hemorrhages self-worth and leaves deep scars.

I think even the most precious things in life can be over valued. It’s like my theory that parents of one child are the most stressed. With one child you have the sense that you should give them the stars and the moon, everything in your power and more. But once you have a second child you realize you can’t possibly do that for both of them and you calm the fuck down

If you put all these grand ideals of faith, country, family as unassailable virtues worth dying for, all 11’s on the 10 point scale of life, how do you balance anything against them, or one against the other?

I also admit that I have a complicated relationship with the concept of duty as a virtue, so we may be coming at this from very different angles.

is placing the marriage commitments above my own needs considered being over-invested?

Genuine question: what needs does a marriage have that are somehow separate needs from what you need and what your wife needs? And if in fact there never was a new entity created, then it just means that you and your wife are two people, co-equal, who agreed to certain privileges and constraints to share a life together. In that agreement, your needs aren’t less than, they are not greater, they are equal to.

In fact, I would argue that for a spouse to choose betrayal through sexual infidelity that they can only accomplish this by putting their perceived needs above that of their spouse and marriage. Can we agree on that?

I would argue that infidelity is like selling a priceless family heirloom for $20 because you were hungry. It’s a wildly foolish misattribution of value, trading fleeting short term personal gain for true long term communal wealth. It’s still not clear to me why the construct of marriage needs to be personified as having its own needs.

When I was going thru it and posting a lot here as a BH on the journey, others pointed out some serious KISA (knight in shining armor) tendencies in me. Does that fit you? Do you take a sense of pleasure in setting aside your own needs for others AND for some greater good? Not saying self-sacrifice is all bad, I would jump in front of a bullet for my children, I know that. But again, balance.

[This message edited by InkHulk at 2:35 PM, Monday, December 1st]

To distill it further, a lot of us have abandonment issues that can cause a reverberation of anything that can be perceived if another threat if abandonment or personal rejection from a close loved one.

I think for me, that has manifested itself in having issues surrounding limerance, and in masking myself. Always looking for that external validation more than valuing external validation. Pivoting from that has taken a lot of effort over many, many years.

For you, it might have some to do with the valuation you put in your spouse, sure. But it also might have some to do with the value of holding onto the affair. I know that seems like a crazy statement to make, you would probably give your right arm to be healed from the affair. But the combo of maybe over valuing your spouse and keeping yourself separate with those asterisks, both may be manifestations of the same fear.

The only thing that has been effective for me has been really getting to know and support and advocate for myself and my needs. Basically, this has allowed me to fill that hole that was there that I kept filling with overthinking and self protection. In essence, it was the way I moved from being a cow to a buffalo (still tumbling that analogy around in my head).

...is overvaluing my wife is that a bad thing or a good thing, a question worth exploring. Part of me wants to state that the greater risk is to undervalue one’s spouse not overvaluing it.

I am guilty, to some degree, of the latter. I honestly didn't appreciate my exww as I could have. I regret that. I just didn't have the interpersonal tools and skills that might have made it easier for me to understand that. Again, it's a bit of a balancing act.

I truly believe that your commitment, respect and love for you wife is honorable and aspirational. At the same time, you've chosen to suffer for thirty years because you have put her "needs" above yours. Please understand, I'm not trying to "throw this in your face," so to speak, only to point out how important it can be to maintain that balancing act (which is never easy).

Am I too believe and live by the value that I am the center of my universe?

That, my friend, is a question that philosophy has wrestled with since the dawn of civilization. The reductionist in me says: yes, we are all the centers of our own universe. We are all the heroes of our own stories, the sum total of all of our own experiences. Anything else is vicarious living and generally pernicious.

That's not necessarily a selfish or self-centered disposition. We all make sacrifices for family, friends and community because they can enrich our lives, give us a sense of purpose and belonging, a sense of something greater than ourselves. That's a part of the human experience.

I vividly remember the day when I was in the military entrance processing (MEP) station and about to put my signature on the dotted line. I paused for a moment. Was I really willing to put myself into harm's way for my country?

I think we all struggle to find inner peace. Only when we are at peace with ourselves can we be at peace with the rest of the world. That's easy enough to write and hard as hell to do, right? It's what brought you to SI and a journey you've been on for over six months.

In fact, I would argue that for a spouse to choose betrayal through sexual infidelity that they can only accomplish this by putting their perceived needs above that of their spouse and marriage. Can we agree on that?

Absolutely. I have zero argument with this.

I believe that infidelity is self-destructive. I've written that a gazillion times. I won't cheat on a significant other for this simple reason. I've often done enough self-destructive shit in my life that adding infidelity is beyond my capacity for self harm.

So, I ask, is denying myself of my need for sexual acceptance a sign of "over-investment?" or is it a commitment to something greater than my momentary needs.

Is this really why you didn't cheat, because you were "over-invested" in your marriage?

My exww once offered me a "hall-pass." I declined. It had nothing to do with her or our marriage and everything to do with my own self-worth.

Divorce was painful. Extremely fucking painful. Nowhere even close to the pain of being betrayed by infidelity. I knew that I would never love my exww the way she wanted me to love her. I let her go. I let me go. We're both happier.

I too struggled with the idea I am the center of my own universe. I would have put mom and wife as my top reasons for existing for most of my life.

The nice thing is- I still put wife and mom as good reasons to exist. I still make those things a top priority, I just don’t take myself totally off the list. And that means sometimes when I don’t want to do something, I just don’t do it anymore.

Lots of times it feels good to do things for others. When it doesn’t, I rest. I don’t make their feelings more important than mine, but I consider their feelings before speaking or taking action.

It’s more like you hold yourself as important as you hold those who are dear to you and you balance it.

As unhinged pointed out, allowing your wife’s feelings to be more important while you suffer with it has been too detrimental to you. I understand that you also don’t want her to shut down because that also causes you to suffer. But you can hold your need and respond to her as she responds. I think you are learning that given your recent conversation with her.

We are not responsible for people’s feelings or reactions, but when we consider those feelings and reactions and respond appropriately we can honor our needs in the situation.

We are responsible for our feelings, thoughts and actions and therefore yes that makes us sort of the center of our own universe. When I have trouble discerning I use an image of the little girl version of hiking out. She is still in there and she needs to have an adult who will look after her. Sort of a reparentification. When I think of it that way, it becomes easier to execute something because sometimes it’s easier for us to give to a child. I don’t know if that makes sense or not, but it helped me make more space for myself.

And to be clear that our relationship has significantly improved as a result.

- my marital satisfaction is high. When we over give or make others more important there are either clear or hidden resentments. I had hidden ones- meaning I wasn’t so clear they were there before. Without them I give of myself more freely. People who have high marital satisfaction tend to be more constructive in resolving conflict, and give from a full cup. This shift is very clear to me but maybe a little harder for me to put in words.

I am more appreciative and the words of appreciation just flow out. I see him doing something and I fully recognize the contribution and thank him. Before I was a little "so what" because instead of appreciating I would usually mow the thought over by I do so much he should at least do that. This never happens now.

When I am being aware of my needs and meeting them, what he does is like the cherry on top. Occasionally, the needs might require him to do something differently, and when I communicate that it’s not from this overburdened place so it’s usually just a simple matter of fact request with whatever level of detail he requires.

When we look out for ourselves we can receive their love more freely and simply.

I don’t know that you have nearly the issue I did in this area but for sure I would self abandon to a point who would really enjoy the relationship- and a lot of it wasn’t even at his request. Making a shift towards self isn’t selfish, it’s healthy and can improve your relationship.

And when you think about it- being in that state creates an implied vulnerability. At first this felt like a lot of emotional risk to me, to go from being low maintenance to what I perceived as higher maintenance. In reality, it was reversed. I am still low maintenance, but I am completely me without apology and he loves me any way. In fact, I think he actually likes me more and feels more confident that he can add happiness to my life. That he can feel confident in how he husbands.

A big way we have learned to compromise is who is this thing more important to- honoring that is a win win situation.

Honesty and high understanding of self can really take emotional intimacy to a new level. And it gets better all the time because I am my own best friend instead of putting myself last on so many things.

[This message edited by hikingout at 6:05 PM, Monday, December 1st]

Have you read The Great Divorce by CS Lewis? It’s my favorite book and it’s great genius is showing how even the best passions (like a mother’s love) can become damnable if not kept in check. It’s a short read, highly recommend it.

While I know this thread wasn’t centered around sacrificing one’s self for spouse or family it has touched on it so I’ll contribute my thoughts. After D day I was dead set on living for me. I was determined to end or save my marriage based solely on my wants. The tricky part veered its ugly head when I realized so many of my needs, wants, and what brought me peace and joy was centered around the health and happiness of my family, especially my children. For me, choosing what was overall best for them or at least considering it wasn’t a sacrifice in so much as it was self preservation. Watching them suffer emotionally or financially would have been more painful than the betrayal I suffered from my husband. Had I immediately ended my marriage perhaps my personal healing from the betrayal may have healed more quickly or at least kept me out of limbo, but I would have been faced with other issues that for me personally, would have been potentially more painful. These issues are unique to my family and go far beyond the simplicity of children navigating the divorce of parents. It does leave me wondering am I sacrificing myself by always choosing them and their needs first or is it actually choosing me since the well being of my children are what bring me the most joy and peace in life? 🤷‍♀️🤔 one thing is for sure, we are all unique individuals and unfortunately a one size fits all approach does not work.

Inhulk,

If it helps you, I would recommend that you include the fullness of your story. I suspect I would relate to a lot of it.

This is probably going to be boring so I would suggest most skip by this post unless you need something to fall asleep bye.

Around 1968 when I was 16 there was a massive movement that came to be known as the "Jesus Movement". I was swept up into it mainly because my values fit it better than those of the 1960’s anti-establishment/free sex movement. I joined a very conservative, evangelical church and would, over the next few years, even though young, rise through the ranks within the church leadership. It was there that I met my wife-to-be who was the church organist. She was 17 and I was 18. A year later we married. We both felt very called to service and within our 1st year of marriage moved into a Christian commune where we could dedicate all our resources to serving street people which over the next decade led to working solely with teenage street kids. Over that decade we both became very concerned that the church was too Americanized and too capitalism oriented, which didn’t line up with what we felt scripture was calling us to be. At around our 10th year of marriage the community we were living in was beginning to disperse with most wanting to reenter normal life. We picked up our little family and began a search for an existing well established Christian community which led us to a Hutterite community in Dear Springs Pennsylvania. It was there that we discovered the Anabaptist angle of Christianity. All though we loved the Hutterite lifestyle and fit well with the Anabaptist viewpoint, we decided that they were too reclused and joined with the Mennonites. We worked for the Mennonite Voluntary Service on the Hopi reservation working with both kids and adults with alcohol issues who both were prone to suicide. I loved this work and would have probably stayed there the rest of my life, but it was a terrible place for my wife and my daughter who were socially rejected out of hand by the Hopi community. My son was younger and well accepted and was in hog heaven. It was there that rigidity of my faith began to shift. When our commitment was up, we returned to the more traditional American lifestyle but still very active in church life. I became the fulltime youth director at a rather large church, and my wife was the organist. It was there that she met her future affair partner who was the choir director. The rest is history that wants to live in the current.

I bet you are sorry you asked.

Asterisk