SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I’ve been thinking about this question a lot and while I understand the multiple reasonings and the massive area of grey, I was hoping to obtain the wisdom from SI.

Dr. Kathy posted the other day about the difference between cheating when you’re dating vs long term relationships/marriage.

To sum up the consensus … leave the relationship if it’s only in the dating faze vs. trying to make it work if you’re in a long term relationship/marriage.

Also, time and time again they say "don’t, stay for the kids … staying for the kids is the worst thing you could do." Yet, most people stay for the kids!!! Hell, it’s one of my biggest reasons for staying and attempting a second marriage. So I don’t really get it. If my kids weren’t here I would like to think I would have peaced out of this marriage by now, regardless of our long relational history.

I guess, the whole leaving vs. staying debacle is confusing and how it’s an automatic "fucking leave" if there’s no complex entanglements, yet there is almost like an "encouragement factor" to stay and fight for a marriage.

Thoughts?

I think the advice given to cheating while dating is "the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior." It usually ends up being true. While there may be outliers and of course is ultimately up to the individuals involved. Leaving a relationship without M, tangled finances and kids is a lot easier than the alternative.

Most R attempts I believe is because of the kids, of course there are some that love their WS as well. If the WS really works on themself and improving the M, R is possible. Some go with the Sunk Cost theory thinking it's better to keep the family together at all costs. I did that until it became detrimental to my mental health and the environment my kids were in.

I'm definitely one of those voices who have told people "don't stay for the kids."

To me, life is way, way too short to be in a miserable relationship.

Either a relationship is working on being better or it's not, and if it's not, I would absolutely move on.

The two most surprised humans on the planet that my wife and I are still married are, me and my wife.

All the pain, the destruction, the sadness and somewhere through all of that Hell, we saw something, a little hope, a bit of potential. And we built from those scraps and remnants of what was left of us.

Looking back, I think that really is the best description.

Our kids were grown. Our finances made it so that we can easily be on our own.

The only reason to stay, is to make it into something worthy of both of you.

I say that, because it's the only experience I have.

We both wake up and choose our life, no one is trapped and the second either of us feels that way, we go our separate ways. Something about building back against long odds and the amount of work we had to do, adds to our current momentum. We sure wish we found a less horrifying way to see some good left in us, but there is no changing what happened.

We didn't have to overcome alcohol or drugs or someone stealing money from the other, no violence of any kind -- our adversity is infidelity. Other couples conquer other obstacles, and in our case, we conquered infidelity.

I would advise anyone dating who gets cheated on to move on too. Dating, assuming we are not talking casual, is an audition for spouse. That’s a failed audition. That person is not mature enough to get married and they do not share your values.

I think any particular podcaster or author or relationship guru may have the opinion work it out, but that is just one opinion. The only persons opinion about why to stay or go is up to that person.

When in a long term marriage there are many things to value, fidelity is only one of those things. Continuing to be one family unit with your children is another. We have reconciled but our children were grown and out of the house before that decision was even made. In my opinion most people will find that one or two things worthy of trying to make it work. In the end, the only thing that marks success is if you reconcile, are happy, you love and are loved in return.

We all think we know what we will do in this case or that one. But the reality is there are lots of ties that bind. I also think we will gravitate towards the encouragement we want most. If it weren’t for you kids maybe you would be listening to encouragement towards divorce because those podcasts, books, etc that will cheer you on in that direction too.we sometimes do not realize that we are self steering. It takes a while to feel like you can consciously move towards an outcome, but we are always driving still the same.

[This message edited by hikingout at 9:06 PM, Friday, March 28th]

People want a life-long partner for a lot of reasons.

Dating is seeking that partner.

When you find that partner, you marry. And there are vows and promises and ceremonies to solidify that life-long commitment.

People might agree to exclusivity while dating (is that common?), but I don’t think the life-long commitment is there, yet.

The life-long commitment changes everything.

After a year of contemplating the drive for reconciliation, I struggle to find a valid reason unless one or more of the following factors are present (irrespective if married or just partners):

* Preserving the family unit.

* Avoiding financial ruin.

* Adhering to religious doctrine.

* Holding a genuine belief in a destined soulmate.

* Having a lower prioritization of sexual fidelity compared to other aspects of the relationship.

This list discounts the far more prevalent reasons such as low self-esteem, sunk cost fallacy, and fear of change or being alone.

Personally, the only compelling, or possibly applicable, reason for me to consider reconciliation would be for the sake of the children.

Even then, I'd prefer an amicable, platonic cohabitation arrangement where we co-parent effectively while fulfilling our romantic needs separately. I simply cannot imagine genuinely wanting a partner who betrayed me to have a good day. Perhaps I could feign it for the children. To be blunt (apologies if crass), the idea of wanting to make a person who destroyed our marriage have an orgasm disgusts me. I'd never want to be a source of pleasure for them moving forward.

Side note, I would love to hear more writing on this point. How would you move past that? Yes you've just made me vomit with stress, show signs of PTSD and cry / not eat for a week. I'll now go down of you for 20 minutes to make you feel amazing.

I've thought a lot about this as a form of mental exercise, a meditation, echoing Rust Cohle from True Detective: 'It's a form of meditation. I contemplate the moment in the garden; the idea of allowing your own crucifixion.'

I use reconciliation as my own 'crucifixion' in this context.

Back to the point at hand, therefore, if people are arguing against staying together for the children, I find the concept of reconciliation even more perplexing.

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 9:27 PM, Friday, March 28th]

Dating, absolutely get out. Doesn’t matter how sorry they are or how much they’ll change.
Married with kids? No, I don’t think anyone should just stay for the kids. I do think it’s worth TRYING to reconcile because you have kids. Still may not work out but that’s ok.

DrSoolers, one thing you left off the list that might be valid for a lot of people is that you love your spouse, have had a long relationship that on the whole has been very fulfilling, and you see enough good there that it’s worth it to try to salvage it. Many people also approach sex differently.

To the original question, I agree with other posters. Cheating while dating feels like a failed audition. Cheating in a long term established relationship makes the stay or go calculus different for a lot of people, including me. There’s more invested, more to untangle, more to lose. That’s just an observation, though, not prescriptive advice. We don't really need talking heads telling betrayed spouses in long partnerships that they should consider reconciliation. For most people, the centripetal force of a long term relationship is already going to incline them toward staying, so if anything, I’d be more likely to try to get them to see leaving as a real option.

[This message edited by Grieving at 12:22 AM, Saturday, March 29th]

I was cheated on while dating, but did not find out until four months after I got married. I fought that decision for a while, but leaving was ultimately the best thing for me and I have not looked back since. Like others have said, dating is an audition.

For me there are a couple of important factors that make me want to at least give reconciliation a try:

- we had an otherwise long and fulfilling relationship.

- I still love her very much. We get along well.

- I believe she can change if she is willing.

- And most importantly, I am not perfect, and would want a chance to demonstrate I can change as well.

I would not stay for the kids. I have been in a divorced home as well as an unhappily married home. The unhappiness is worse than the divorce in some situations, and it's just not worth it.

DrSoolers, one thing you left off the list that might be valid for a lot of people is that you love your spouse, have had a long relationship that on the whole has been very fulfilling, and you see enough good there that it’s worth it to try to salvage it

.

Firstly, while loving one's partner is a powerful emotion, this was omitted from the list because I don't believe it's a sufficient reason to remain in a relationship, especially when weighed against safety and well-being. Victims of abuse can deeply love their abusers, yet leaving is essential for their protection.

If we dismiss 'staying for the kids' as an invalid reason, then 'staying for love' holds even less weight, unless one subscribes to the concept of soulmates. I personally don't, and I find it difficult to reconcile the idea of a cosmically destined partner betraying one's trust.

Secondly, you mentioned the overall benefits of a long-term, fulfilling relationship as a reason for reconciliation. This point is valid, but its relevance hinges on the prioritization of other relationship aspects, specifically sexual fidelity. This is why I noted this in my original list. If a person values sexual fidelity above all else. then any other positive aspects of the relationship become secondary. In essence, if infidelity is a deal-breaker, the relationship's other strengths are rendered moot.

DrSoolers, I have no problem at all with sexual fidelity being the be-all and end-all for someone, and for cheating to be an unforgivable, irreconcilable dealbreaker. It’s completely fair, and I would never counsel a person who feels as you do to remain in a relationship after infidelity. But many people have a more complex assessment of their priorities and values. It’s possible for a person to take an honest look at their situation, examine their values, weigh their options, and decide that reconciliation with a genuinely remorseful partner is worthwhile. I place a high value on sexual and emotional fidelity, but reconciliation after betrayal feels possible for me because my husband is remorseful, we love each other deeply, we have a relationship that has been mutually happy, loving, and fulfilling over many years, and because I value and believe in forgiveness. The way that you characterize people’s reasons for staying after infidelity doesn’t match my experience, and it feels reductionist to me.

[This message edited by Grieving at 1:42 PM, Saturday, March 29th]

I was going to add a long, detailed response -- but Grieving already crushed it:

DrSoolers, I have no problem at all with sexual fidelity being the be-all and end-all for someone, and for cheating to be an unforgivable, irreconcilable dealbreaker. It’s completely fair, and I would never counsel a person who feels as you do to remain in a relationship after infidelity. But many people have a more complex assessment of their priorities and values. It’s possible for a person to take an honest look at their situation, examine their values, weigh their options, and decide that reconciliation with a genuinely remorseful partner is worthwhile. I place a high value on sexual and emotional fidelity, but reconciliation after betrayal feels possible for me because my husband is remorseful, we love each other deeply, we have a relationship that has been mutually happy, loving, and fulfilling over many years, and because I value and believe in forgiveness. The way that you characterize people’s reasons for staying after infidelity doesn’t match my experience, and it feels reductionist to me.

As I noted before, no one is as surprised as I am that I stayed.

Forgiveness turned out to be a powerful thing, for me and my wife.

She didn't consider herself forgivable, some days she still feels that way, and yet, my gift of R and that forgiveness was a starting point we didn't think was possible.

Some WS cheat to hurt people, I get that.

Some WS cheat because they are hurt people.

No one deserves a last chance, but I will always be grateful I offered it.

The last five years, watching my adult sons succeed in life, watching my wife become a stronger, better version of herself, have been the best of life (so far).

R is about the future. One's past is only one of the inputs to that.

Cheating while dating? Yeah, breaking up is probably the best option, but I very much doubt the validity of a decision that isn't based on facts on the ground.

Similarly, after an A while married, R may be the easiest solution, my reco is always to look at the facts. If both partners want A AND are willing to do the work, R looks like the best choice, provided both partners continue to monitor themselves for meeting requirements and still wanting to be M to each other. IOW, I pretty much agree with Oldwounds -

The only reason to stay, is to make it into something worthy of both of you. But for me that assumes and requires both partners wanting to stay and do the necessary work.

The BS has a lot of work to do. A BS in R has to believe 1) they are entitled to want what they want, 2) they can and will get what they want ethically, and 3) they'd rather get what they want than get the approval of some voice in their head or of other prople. (A BS in R has to take control of their self-talk for their own benefit.)

I distinguish between 'staying' and 'R', R builds a new M that serves both partners. IMO, 'staying' serves the BS and, perhaps, kids more than anyone or anything else. I don't see much wrong in that, and the wrong I see is that the BS puts themself in danger of the WS's decision to D, but I wouldn't call it 'Reconciliation'.

The way that you characterize people’s reasons for staying after infidelity doesn’t match my experience, and it feels reductionist to me.

I'm not sure the view I've explained is reductionist at all, nothing you've said has in anyway contradicted what I've said. Not as far as I've understood it. Perhaps you could expand on how we are precisely disagreeing? Nor has it forced for the original list in question to require altering.

I get that you can forgive the betrayal because you feel the other aspects of your relationship make it worth while to do so, however, if you were something that considered sexual fidelity as the base level requirement in a marriage, the other aspects of the relationship would be irrelevant. To me that is common sense view.

It's either a deal breaker or it isn't. You've learned it isn't to you. For others, it is.

My WW worst cheating, that I know of, was before marriage.

I think when the cheating is before marriage the WW is more likely to think she is forgiven, and the BH is more likely to rugsweep.

This set a tone for the marriage once it occurs.

Years later it comes back with a vengeance.

The emotional toll of either is about the same I think just the amount of energy spent of fixing it is less for the premarital affair.

Sexual (and emotional) fidelity is a base level requirement for me in marriage, and so is honesty. I’m guessing that’s also the case for most of the happily reconciled people here. The question is how to approach things when the person you’re with breaks those requirements. I suspect that’s where we differ. I chose to give my husband another chance when he broke our deal. It wasn’t an easy choice, and I made it for a host of complex reasons, but the two biggest are probably that I believe in forgiveness, and he has demonstrated deep remorse and thoughtful change. Our shared history of a loving, fulfilling relationship was also significant.

In terms of your list, I don’t feel that any of those things gets at the reason I chose to reconcile. I don’t believe in soulmates, I didn’t stay for kids or to avoid financial ruin or to fulfill religious beliefs. And I don’t consider sexual fidelity less important than other aspects of my relationship. But I think we’re probably talking past each other at this point.

[This message edited by Grieving at 8:16 PM, Sunday, March 30th]

My two cents.

Every person I know (and it’s about 14 people) who were cheated on and then married the cheater ended up being cheated on while married too.

It’s almost as if the cheater sees it as a sign of acceptance from the betrayed. Or they just take advantage because they know the betrayed spouse (most often) won’t leave them.

Except for Deena04. She ended the marriage after finding out about the cheating that occurred before the marriage.

I bet the cheater never expected that to occur.

I think people stay for many reasons and if it works for them I don’t judge. Stay for kids, stay for money, stay for love, stay for lifestyle, stay because fidelity is not the most valued marriage promise, or a combination of all the above is really personal to the betrayed. I also think what makes one stay initially may change. I stayed because I loved my life and lifestyle. I wasn’t willing to give all that up because my husband was an emotional F-up. It was all on him and after that sort of hurt I refused to compound it by giving up the life I loved. Divorcing would have changed a lot and taken the good left in my life. However, I am not one who places sexual or even emotional fidelity as the most important commitment in a marriage. Don’t get me wrong, I expect it, but I place higher value on other aspects of marriage.

Edit to add that I know this was a comparison of leaving vs staying in marriage vs dating. I think my answer would be the same for both. What am I getting from the relationship if I stay vs what am I giving up for leaving?

[This message edited by OnTheOtherSideOfHell at 1:32 AM, Sunday, March 30th]

** Member to Member **

I think the disagreement lies here:

This list discounts the far more prevalent reasons such as low self-esteem, sunk cost fallacy, and fear of change or being alone.

Where's the data supporting your argument? Or, since you admittedly don't understand R, are you saying people who R so so out of weakness?

One can R or split out of weakness or out of strength (though most likely there's a mix). Ideally, one chooses the outcome primarily from strength. I'd argue that neither D nor R is an easy way out. Making either work well requires a lot of strength.

Personally, the only compelling, or possibly applicable, reason for me to consider reconciliation would be for the sake of the children.

That's not R. That's staying for the children.

Even then, I'd prefer an amicable, platonic cohabitation arrangement where we co-parent effectively while fulfilling our romantic needs separately.

Are you saying you'd stay for the children and show them 2 'married' adults who go out on dates, perhaps staying away for more than a day, with people to whom they are not married? Are you saying you'd bring infidelity out into the open?

I wouldn't do that. I'd choose between 1) to R - build a new monogamous relationship that serves both partners and kids - and 2) to D and 3) to stay for the kids and to rug-sweep. None of those choices are for the weak.