SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Hey internet. Something has happened that has forced me to be the most honest I've been yet with myself, and I need your unbiased thoughts.

Background

Every year or so I have a time where I end up seriously wondering if I made the right choice in staying. Most recently this past fall (https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums/?tid=664381&HL=35989)

If I'm being really honest, sometimes I paint a rosy picture of my situation, perhaps trying to convince myself that I made the right choice.

The truth is, at the time I made the post above, I was in therapy for myself, talking to the therapist trying to suss out why I kind of wanted to leave my marriage. Also at that time was kind of a prolonged period of feeling sort of ignored by my wife who always seemed to busy with other things for me.

When we talked about it, her first response was "I'm here aren't I?" (as in, I'm in the house). "Isn't that enough?"

She was absolutely wrapped up in her own thing. Eventually I would almost daily drive up to a nearby lake and just stare at it for an hour or two, reflecting on our entire marriage. During one of these times, I was thinking about every uncaring thing she had ever done, and I contrasted it to a friend I had long ago who helped me through a difficult time and was relentlessly kind, and I felt sick.

At times I thought to myself I would leave the marriage in November, after my nephew's wedding. For whatever reason though, the feeling passed and I am still here.

For what it's worth, here are the more uncaring things she has done over the years (roughly in order of occurrence):
* When I started to lose my hair, she specifically said I was no longer attractive because of it. (She now says I am but the original comment still upsets me simply by virtue of how uncaring it was.)
* When I applied to college, she said it was a waste of time since I would probably flunk out anyway.
* She said my family was a sinking ship.
* She generally hated sex with me.
* She had her affair.
* When my father who lived in another city was terminally ill, she was frustrated with how much time she was needing to spend away from home to support me, and at one point said something like "why can't he die faster?" before deciding to drive back home and leave me alone with my dying father. (He passed away like two days later. I still have the voicemail where she called weeping and apologizing for that statement).

More recently I think it's gotten a little better (I think?), but typically:
* There are times where I don't feel much like a priority
* For my 40th birthday, she said she was going to put something together, but at the day before my birthday told me she was too busy with other things and couldn't do it.
* There is a team sport we play together. If one of us makes a mistake that she thinks makes her look bad, she criticizes us all really harshly. She does this enough that pretty much nobody wants to play with her anymore.

The event

So that old friend and I started talking a week ago, out of the blue, with a relationship problem. Before you all jump on the MadHatter train, I told her the things she wanted to change in her marriage were valid and pointed her to a good marriage counselor. I have conducted myself with honor here.

But on the inside -- my god. She is so fricking relentlessly kind. She's never said one mean thing to me. It got me thinking that there must be others like her.

And I started thinking about my friends, all of who also have never said one mean thing to me.

Seeking an objective opinion, I met individually with my three closest friends over the weekend and simply asked them "What do you think about the way wife treats me?" (That is literally the question I asked. I'm trying to be unbiased here)

One said she was really tough (to be around).
One said she was disrespectful and contemptuous, and seems to behave as if I don't have any value.
The third said they didn't really understand why I was with her.

I'm not about to run off with this other girl. I am not that naive. But, here I am again.... did I make the right choice in staying?

Have I been lying to myself? In another bit of honestly that I don't like to acknowledge, sometimes I feel the affair was a missed opportunity to leave :(

At the same time, enough of the time I'm content -- I've stayed this long. Am I settling? Can you all help me navigate my thoughts?

She honestly sounds like an awful person and if it were me I'd probably already have fallen out of love with her based on her actions and her comments. I'm sure you have a lot of resentment towards her too how could you not.

If it were me I would detach, get myself strong enough to leave and then leave. Why spend the rest of your life miserable being with a miserable person? Anyways that's just my own opinion. I hate people that nitpick, criticize, and basically never have anything good to say. You can tell by the people who are around them which is usually not very good friends or very shallow friends. My xWS was in that group.

I don’t think the other girl (or any other girl) should factor into your decision.

I think you should figure out if your wife is someone you want to spend your life with. I’m in a constant state of doing this myself.

You need to decide if your wife is the person you want to spend the rest of your life with.

You have seen and know her true colors - but only you can make that choice. Not your friends, buddies, team mates, etc. And the apparent kindness of an old friend of the opposite sex should have no bearing.

I'd say life is too short to be staying with your WW. I mean, c'mon man, when you introduce her as your wife, are you actually *proud*?

I also would be extremely careful with this opposite-gender friend. It's dangerous for old friends to reconnect as you did, as a lot of affairs start that way. And while I understand you don't want to hear it, the ground is quite slippery there. (You brought her up in this story in your OP for a reason?)

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 12:50 AM, Wednesday, January 15th]

Agreed on the concern about the old friend. One thing I'm worried that I might be doing is dredging up all the worst parts of my marriage only now that the old friend has resurfaced.

Though, again I did the same thing last fall before reconnecting, so maybe not?

The old friend does have a lot of the qualities I would like in a partner so yea I need to be very careful here. Even then though, her decision regarding her situation and my decision regarding my situation have to be independent of each other. I have not given her any indication of my inner thinking on this issue.

Old friend and I never had a romantic connection.

I just scheduled a fresh slew of meetings with my therapist.

Upon reflecting a bit more this evening, the typical cycle with my wife is a long period of ok-ness and then some really uncaring thing that upsets me for a while, followed by another period of ok-ness, etc... I think that is why I go through the cycle. In my mind it's a feeling of "Well, she's not mean all the time", but eventually she will probably do another uncaring thing.

Also my phone has been open and my wife has looked over my communication with Old friend, at my encouragement. I have really taken steps to the best of my ability make sure I conduct myself honorably here.

[This message edited by saturnpatrick at 1:10 AM, Wednesday, January 15th]

Note we've been married for 20 years, so the big list above is spread out over a 20 year time.

My thoughts before doing anything are to give old friend advice and wish them well (which I've basically already done), go through at least a few sessions with the therapist, and maybe schedule some MC to address the sport meanness that frankly has been brought up a number of times over the past couple of years but still continues.

At this moment, I actually see the sport meanness as the biggest potential weakness in our marriage.

Ugh, just talked to my sister who also said she didn't like the way W treats me. That's 4/4 so far on people close to me :(

It's worth noting neither her or any of my friends know about that big list I had in the first post.

I hate that I'm even entertaining the idea of leaving right now. I feel like a quitter.

[This message edited by saturnpatrick at 1:44 AM, Wednesday, January 15th]

did I make the right choice in staying?

Every morning, you wake up and choose again. Ask yourself in the evening each day if you made the right choice this morning.

For what it's worth, here are the more uncaring things she has done over the years

Google on Naikan Therapy. In it, they have you ask and answer three questions with respect to a relationship:
1. What you have received from them
2. What you have given them
3. What troubles or difficulties you have caused them

Note that there’s a question #4 that goes unasked. That’s because we spend the most of the rest of our lives focusing on it. The three questions above are to bring you to be more honest about the relationship.

Not saying you shouldn’t move on. I am saying it’s not a once and done decision. You decide every morning…

My thoughts are that you might want to sit down and ask yourself some questions.

Are you staying with your wife because you have invested 20 years and think you don’t want to lose that investment? If any part of you says "yes", please look up "sunken cost fallacy" and make sure your logic is sound. Because it isn’t. Remove this from your checklist of reasons to stay, and any time it comes up in your head again, stop it.

If someone else said things like this to you, how long would they remain your friend? If you valued the relationship, would you confront them and demand change - and if they failed to respect your request, which is basically to be treated with kindness, would you continue the relationship or would you break it off? Think about it - would you even call that friend for lunch?

The biggest thing have for you to think about is this:

When I am faced with a situation where someone I know well is treating me badly, I ask myself "is this new behavior for that person, or is this their usual behavior?" and I make my decision accordingly.

If it’s new behavior, I will have a conversation with the person. Usually it’s a misunderstanding, easily solved.

But if this is NOT new behavior, and how they usually act, I have a decision to make. Am I willing to continue to accept being treated badly? Am I willing to allow the disrespect - despite having talked with them and continuing to be disrespected? Am I willing to say to myself "in order to keep this person in my life, I have to be willing to accept disrespect and abusive behavior, I’m willing and aware, and from now on I will submit".

Because in reality, if I know this about a person, and I have had many discussions with them, if they continue without changing, the answer they are giving me is that they will NOT CHANGE, that they do NOT respect me, and that they do NOT care about me.

Any further relationship with that person that results in further disrespect to me? That’s on me now. I know this, and at this point, after making this conscious deliberation, am making a purposeful decision to continue a relationship with someone I know and accept will be disrespectful to me. I am choosing this - I know they’re a snake, I know they’re going to bite me, and I’m going to allow it.

Maybe I just need more bites before I decide? I don’t know. Maybe I’m hoping I can train the snake? Maybe I’m hoping the snake will change into a puppy?

But if I don’t see actual CHANGES toward puppyhood, I’m not keeping the snake.

I think you need to get the book "co-dependent no more" I think it will help you quite a bit.

saturnpatrick post #6:

Agreed on the concern about the old friend. One thing I'm worried that I might be doing is dredging up all the worst parts of my marriage only now that the old friend has resurfaced.

Though, again I did the same thing last fall before reconnecting, so maybe not?

The old friend does have a lot of the qualities I would like in a partner so yea I need to be very careful here. Even then though, her decision regarding her situation and my decision regarding my situation have to be independent of each other. I have not given her any indication of my inner thinking on this issue.

I am going to be blunt with you here: YOU ARE CASING EACH OTHER OUT FOR AN AFFAIR. Your right hand may not know what your left hand is doing, but this is almost positively what is happening--even if you aren't consciously aware of it. She already *seriously* violated a boundary by confiding in you (someone of the opposite gender, who just came back into her life) by disclosing her issues with her partner instead of you.

Anyway, consider yourself warned.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 5:57 PM, Wednesday, January 15th]

I think you know the answer to your question; you're just afraid of acting on it.

Search for the Sunk Cost Fallacy... It may apply to you. 5/5 people close to you can't see how she's good for you and you have not written even one positive thing about the marriage in this thread. "OK-ness" doesn't count.

I am going to be blunt with you here: YOU ARE CASING EACH OTHER OUT FOR AN AFFAIR. Your right hand may not know what your left hand is doing, but this is almost positively what is happening--even if you aren't consciously aware of it. She already *seriously* violated a boundary by confiding in you (someone of the opposite gender, who just came back into her life) by disclosing her issues with her partner instead of you.

While blunt and maybe harsh - this is clear, concise and spot on accurate. WontBeFooledAgai nailed it.

Come to think of it - that's how WH LTA started (and so many countless others) - just harmlessly reconnecting & catching up with an old friend. I think it a chapter in the Cheater's Handbook called "Old Friend - Slippery Slope".

You, weather you realize it or not, have one foot over the edge.

Reading through this entire thread twice two things jump out at me:
1 - you are vilifying your wife (which is probably well deserved)
2 - you are glorifying this old friend of the opposite sex (which is very dangerous & a huge red flag)

Sunk cost fallacy may be a part. I'll check out the co-dependent no more book also.

Wife has some good qualities. I tend to focus only on them when posting here for some reason and gloss over the less nice stuff. I decided to go the opposite direction in this thread because it felt like it was time to go the opposite way. Generally she is very smart, hard working, and she is pretty. She has a reputation for having a temper though.

After a lot of reflecting, the best way I can summarize it is that she seems to enjoy having me in her life, but maybe doesn't care about me. It causes me a lot of confusion because we'll enjoy playing video games or watching tv or whatever, but almost always whatever she is up for must be on her terms.

When stuff like that is happening it makes me feel like we're in a good place. Then something like this weekend will happen, where I was returning from out of town. I had been up for 17 hours, and the return drive was a 3 hour drive. I walked into the house at 12:30 am, and while she was happy to see me, within about three minutes she goes "so.... we're out of pop..." suggesting I go get some for her. I said I was tired and had just driven three hours and would go shopping in the morning and she pressed further with "I mean... you could just run to the gas station, that would be closer and easier." (I said no and she pouted a bit but at this stage I'm immune to said pouting)

Little things like that do make me feel bad over time though.

Our sex life - which isn't bad - when things slow down enough for me to feel bad about it, the typical retort from her is "I'm just not a sexual person" (and deal with it). I wouldn't dream of saying the opposite (I'm a sexual person, deal with it). It kind of feels sometimes like she is checking a box of minimum requirements to be married rather than caring about how I feel.

I do have meetings with the therapist scheduled to see where I'm at on this issue. No sudden decisions being made. I appreciate all of your feedback.

Regarding Old Friend:

I was a lifeguard when I was younger. Contrary to what you may see on TV, when someone is drowning (and you don't have a floaty thing to give them), you actually keep your distance and just nudge them toward safety. A drowning person is desperate and will latch on to and try to climb anything nearby, including you, potentially to both of your peril.

Old Friend reminds me of a drowning person. I'm keeping my distance.

I am going to be blunt.

Your wife is not a nice person.

I think (for me) the comment about your father "dying faster" was the most uncaring, cold, mean thing someone could say.

She’s not able to have feelings like you expect or need. Period. In a nutshell.

Maybe she has no filter. But the idea she told you about a birthday party for you and then didn’t follow through "because she was too busy" is selfish behavior. She could have made dinner reservations and invited a few friends to attend. Not hard - takes no more than an hour to execute.

Not sure why you want to stay with someone who makes you unhappy.

If you want to divorce you can. It can be as simple as that. You don’t need another person’s ok on this. It sounds like she holds you in contempt. That is enough reason right there. You got on here in 2012. That is a loooonnng time to still be in pain.

Your decision is to be realistic about what comes next if you continue as you have, or divorcing. There is the "law of unintended consequences" that will surely show up regardless. It sounds like you have a really good support group. If you leave they have your back, if you stay they do as well.

What can you tolerate? Go from that.

I killed your previous thread with this response:

If you really feel this way, you are in for continued years of discomfort.

If you don't see R as showing flexibility, strength, and resilience rather than capitulation, fear, and weakness, you will lose self respect.

I've called this the loss of "something integrity adjacent". I don't think I've lost my self respect. But I've certainly lost my formerly highly rigid moral framework. It's not compatible with R.

Edit to add previous post:

I called it not losing my integrity, but something integrity adjacent.

It really is something that you need to come through to feel more settled. I highly recommend the book "How Can I Forgive You" by Janis Spring. This really helps shine a light on the inner working of forgiveness. On how to accept that your fWS has done the work of recompense and that your offer of forgiveness doesn't mean condoning the previous actions, and that it doesn't ever actually have to be a complete forgiveness. You are allowed to keep a bit of yourself upset.

What I have changed in my mindset is that I don't view myself as caving (though I did cave a lot, ha!), I am patient and resilient in the face of injury (but now with firm and clear boundaries to prevent further injury). I am not simply accepting, forgiving, and moving on. As you have pointed out, you feel empowered to leave if you want to leave. Instead you are taking the path of earned forgiveness. You are measuring what your WS has done and is doing against the injury they previously causes and accepting that they are making sufficient effort to make you feel safe again.

The other thing I often point out, is that in R, I always give myself permission to change my mind. My wife broke our vows unilaterally and I'm not going to renew them. We are beyond lifelong promises. I think my marriage will last my whole life, but I'm not sworn to that anymore.

It's not quitting to change your mind especially as evidence accrues.

I agree with the assessment that your are currently in your mind allowing a scorecard to put all of the negatives of your wife in a basket and group them together and then also a mythical version of your old friend that only is recalling the positives.

I'm NOT saying your assessment is necessarily wrong, but cognitive biases and emotions make these sort of assessments not really objective or repeatable. They are heavily weighted to your current emotions, which are negative to your wife and positive to your old friend.

As to why they are negative to your wife, it sounds like both of you are failing to "turn toward" each other to use the Gottman terms. As such you are both sort of building up resentment and have a negative "emotional bank account balance". You can google this concept if you aren't familiar with it.

Addressing some of your bullet points, you might want to consider the is this issue permanent or solvable, and are you willing to cope or live with that to be with your wife.

* She generally hated sex with me.

Does she still? I mean, this is a big major roadblock if you ask me.

That said, has she said she hated it? Was that during the A? Before? After? Beware blameshifting and relationship history rewriting of WS.

* For my 40th birthday, she said she was going to put something together, but at the day before my birthday told me she was too busy with other things and couldn't do it.

My wife is chronically bad at special occasions and gift giving (you can read my old threads to get a feel for it). It didn't really bother me before the A, but it bothered me more after. She actually did an amazing job with my 40th. She got me a thoughtful gift and got all my friends together for a party after a nice dinner with the family.

Is this a recurring problem? How much does it matter to you. How much of a stink did you make about this?

Lastly I'm going to also address the "old friend" situation you are in. You are emotionally open and vulnerable to a person of the opposite sex. Whether you have conducted yourself with honor, or there has never been a romantic connection I would just call it thin ice. Even if you are transparent about your communications with this friend to your wife, I think you are "opening a window" that may not be appropriate with "just a friend". This is of course per "Not Just Friends" by Shirley Glass. Consider taking the "emotional affair" quiz from that book and seeing how you score. Seems like you are in more of a "3" situation than a "6" situation (out of 8) to me.

Hey, I thought I'd chime in as much about your WW resonates with me.

My now EXWW would slowly kill me with a thousand cuts during our M. I think she honestly thought she was the prize and she saw me as inferior. I bred a sort of contempt towards me.

She regularly insulted me about many things, often telling me I would look better if I lost weight. I carried an extra 10 lbs or so. It got so bad I would change in the closet rather than in front of her. I even avoided reflective surfaces like windows or mirrors just so I wouldn't have to look at myself.

Looking back over almost 30 years, it occurred to me that not once did she ever care for me when I was sick or injured. In fact, she would get irritated with me for being out of commission and thus making her life inconvenient.

I remember one time I came down with food poisoning. I had just enough energy to leave work, pick up the kids from school and daycare, make it home only to collapse on the couch as my kids covered me in blankets to keep me from shivering.

When my W came home, she told me to stop being so dramatic. When she came in on me throwing up in the bathroom, she said, "Hmmmm, I guess you are sick." And then walked out.

She even refused to accompany me to my surgery to get snipped and then laughed at me when she picked me up. She really is a piece of work.

You see, I stayed with her because I made a vow and good men keep their promises.in a sense, her infidelity was a blessing in as much as it gave me the permission I needed to end my M.

I remember when I told my friend about not wanting to be alone, mind you this was before Dday#2 and the truth, he said that I've been alone most of my M. That really hit me.

After I S, I dated a woman who was kind but damaged. I got sick, and went home. She called and told me to come over so she could take care of me. She made me soup and let me sleep it off. I thought, WTAF? People do that for people? That's how toxic my world view had become, a sort of relational Stockholm syndrome.

I'm 6 years out now and I don't for a second regret ending things. It was death by a thousand cuts, each allowed to heal just enough to make me second guess things. I guess it's kinda like gaslighting in the sense of making me doubt my reality or perception of it.

I'm single now and at peace, something I didn't realize I didn't have for much of my M. My EXWW has always been a taker and was happy that I would open a vien and bleed out just so she could get what she wanted. I think the time and space between Megan my former M has allowed me to see her for who she was and still is, rather than my fictionalized version of her.

Another benefit for me is the vindication that comes with watching her life slowly turn to shit with one bad choice after another. It confirms that I wasn't the problem. I guess there is also a third benefit as well. I no longer have to carry her dead weight and that is nothing short of liberating. It feels lighter.

I dont know if any of this makes sense or helps, but I hope you find your way. I hope you find your peace...