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I have therapy today and i usually go over what i am going to try to get help on in my head a few days before i see her

Sooo. I took my wh’s phone and looked at texts his sister and he shared before july when i found out MIL hd planned to go with my SILs on vacation during our visit to their city. (We hadnt seen the in laws in 2.5 years)

First, i got dates wrong. I thought our trip was July 31-aug. 9. Wh told SIL it was aug 1- aug 8. Not huge but a mistake in my memory of events.

Mil decided to go with SILs on vacation August 5-11, so our visit would only be cut 4 days short instead of 5.

Sil seemed nice in the texts. She invited "you all" to visit her rental house in the Hamptons when she rented the house, and said it was an open invitation. Asked do u think u can come up soon?

But when we did make plans to visit MIL in her hometown (MIL lives a few hours from the Hamptons, while SIL is in NYC) and tell her and MIL, they decided to take a vacation halfway through our planned visit. The vacation was with SIL 2 and her family- SIL2 has not talked to WH in 2 years. I think she hot upset that we had a small baptism for our youngest and said we should be ashamed for what we did, which I think was not invite MIL. However I had told MIL we were having it in our town, and would bring baby to their town and have a big party to celebrate and meet extended family later. Before that, SIL 2 never contacted us during my pregnancy in 2019, and since 2015 has not really spoken to me. It was a joke between me and WH, wed visit the ILS and I would say Hi, SIL and she would walk away from me. She woukd talk to me to tell me, "Theres nothing here for you to eat" when we would go to her house for family dinners. (Im a life long vegetarian and she would put meat in everything, including the salad)

I used to call my MIL or email when wh was going off the rails. He would have an episode where he would scream and either kick a hole in a door or hide the phones and take our only car (we had 1 car at the beginning of our marriage). They would say what do you want us to do and tell him that We should divorce if we fought so much. But it wasnt a fight, it was a mentally ill person who could function sometimes having an episode. I didnt say it explicitly, but i needed help. I thought they would help him.

I just dont know. Im so confused. Yhey act like Im horrible (they say i attacked… yes, ATTACKED, MIL and pick on her. When i said just be nice to my kids because you arent always, and the i did say you are weak and have no morals for things she has done in the past. I gave very specific examples. I did not yell or curse.

I feel a little crazy, like i have done something wrong but Im not quite sure what it is (in years past… i do know they hate me for calling MIL out two mos ago)

This is narcissistic behavior, right? They arent nice even if they act nice sometimes. If we stay at a hotel and everyone is at the lake house, they invite my Dd to stay over but not my son. They planned a vacation during our planned visit to see them. The last Christmas we attended at their house, everyone exchanged gifts and I sat there and received nothing. We go for family dinner to SIL and I walk in the door and am told, I dont think there is anything you can eat here.

Im not the bad guy right? You all would tell me, right? The whole family is fucked up bc MIL is a narcissist and they cater to her, so they are in her good graces, but we moved away and dont offer her anything (SIL 1 offers money and SIL2 offers services , like her hubby mows MIl lawn and acts as handy man). WH was told by SIL 1 that he needs to send MIL money each month two months after we moved into a home my famiky member bought and let us live in rent free. She said "you were given a house and so you can help mom" MiL has declared bankruptcy 2x, and refuses to budget. After getting 40,000 when her dad died, she turned around and spent it ALL on SIL 2’s wedding the next year.

And when FIL was dying, MIL told hin he couldnt come home from the hospital, that he had to go to hospice, because she couldnt take him dying in her house. It would be too hard on her.

When he was dying SIL 1 was pregnant and had some high risk complications and her doc said dont travel too much- you can make the trip to see your dad one time, but dont go back and forth. MIL said, dont come now (when FIL was still alive) come when he dies, I will need you then. So she didnt see her dying father, she went to the funeral instead to support her mom.

I am not the asshole, right? I called a narcissist on their bad behavior and am getting slammed. But Im not the asshole right?

No, hon, you're not in the wrong. The most dangerous thing about narcissists is that they can seem so pleasant and charming. It's how they rope you in. It's how they gaslight you, because it builds up evidence that they can use to make you and everyone around you think you're the unreasonable one. If they were just plain assholes, the game would be over too quickly.

There's never going to be a way to crack this barrier with WH's family because there are no outsiders to stand up with you. You and your kids are targets. And for the love of God, you need to keep those kids away from them as much as you can, because they'll either be victimized or brainwashed. As bad as it was to see your older DD left out, imagine if they had turned her into one of them.

Gotta,

Of course your not wrong! I dwell on stuff from 25 years ago. I have talked to a few people about this. I also talked to my IC about conversations and what could be said differently. What I was encouraged to do is write it all out and accept I cannot change this. I had to work on valuing myself and letting go of people’s opinions. It wasn’t easy, still I slip. Usually these are things with my deceased Mom or my sister. I have accepted what I believe and what my sister believes is very different. That my sister has a need to be right.

How it relates to you. There is a point where you have to realize your worth is not dependent on your in-laws. I get that your looking for a reason for there behavior. Their behavior could be from just a very very different moral compass then you. Your husband talking badly about you. It could be they are very into being the top women/ woman in your husbands life.

Remember you can’t fix crazy! Which means you cannot fix or change them. Your best solution is to get all the poison out to someone you trust. If you need to dump here that’s cool. You can only change you,! You can teach your children how to react to crazy. I think one of the hardest things to accept is not everyone likes me. Due to low self esteem I tried to change things by pandering, bribing (gifts acts of service). Who knows why? I realized finally my actions made no difference and truly if they don’t like me to bad so sad. It’s okay. It is a specific group of family they leave my child out and are not nice about it. I taught her to disconnect and it was there problem not hers.

I hope in IC, you get closure for your self and realize this is not about you. This is definitely about your in-laws and their poor behavior.

I hope this makes sense to you.

I was lucky my MIL shunned. I now see what I’ve missed.

You are not wrong.

You are trying to make horrible people like you - which won’t happen.

Good news is you can stop the drama at any time.

Ok. Just checking. Seriously I dont get why they dont like me. Im a likable person.

I actually have some reasons it might be. All cone back to their insecurity.

Talked to IC today. She told me the same thing.

I waited years to tell MIL off (i didnt even tell her off… i really stated facts and boundaries) . It is so nice to 1- have told her i thing shes weak and immoral, 2- my SILS have said in not allowed to visit …. Like thats a bad thing!

It feels so good to have cut them out of my life. For years i tried to fit in and be part of the family. I am sad thats not possible, but so glad i dont have to be crapped on

[This message edited by Gottagetthrough at 2:38 AM, Thursday, October 14th]

I think not knowing why they don’t like you is the thing that is crazy making. I think maybe you don’t need to know. Its a fact they aren’t going to change, concentrate on stuff you can.

Gottagetthrough,

It makes me sad for you to read these posts about your in-laws.

My MIL and one SIL are very similar to yours, but maybe we are a bit more polite to each other. I like my other in-laws. One difference I read with you is that you really, really want that big, extended, happy family and holidays and vacations with them. I'm not so vested in that.

I have many siblings and aunts/uncles/cousins of my own without in-laws. I've always thought family was important and tolerate a lot of behavior from family that I wouldn't from others. Since d-day, I've put more boundaries with MIL and SIL. It feels good.

This isn't about you. Really, it's not. They like you as much as you benefit them or go along or emulate them. It's how they deal with everyone.

I can tell you stories about my MIL and SIL that might help you understand. Let's just say that when my spouse, children, and I are living or staying in a place they want to see, they visit us regularly. We also pay for travel and sometimes hotel (when MIL said she didn't like sleeping in same guest room as FIL anymore. She does at home.). If we're not, they don't visit. Conversations and topics are centered around their interests and them. My teenager noticed it and said, "I don't like talking with Grandma. She doesn't listen to anything I care about and talks over me." You are a life-long vegetarian. Maybe you care about animals or the environment. Maybe you just feel it's healthier for you and you feel better. If my MIL/SIL weren't, they would tell you why it's wrong to be a vegetarian. If they're 50 lbs overweight with health issues and you're not, they would tell you that you're lucky because you're skinny. But you're still wrong, and it will catch up with you eventually.

They are nice-enough people to be around for a holiday if you agree and talk about their interests. I don't have any deeper relationship with them. They don't care to know me or my values, and I just make conversation. I have stopped accommodating them.

Oh, and if I lived in Manhattan and had a rental house in the Hamptons, I would see MIL and SIL way, way more often. It's not about how much they like me or want to see me or their son/brother or our children though. I think it's the same for you.

You have been abused and gaslighted for so long its hard for you to understand what is and isn't normal.
Everything you have ever shared about these people is NOT normal.
Let it go. Understand that whatever their issues are they aren't going to change or fix them. It isn't you. It is them and let it go. Stop tying yourself in knots over them. They aren't worth it. Never have been. Never will be.

Oh, and if I lived in Manhattan and had a rental house in the Hamptons, I would see MIL and SIL way, way more often.

I think this is why mil and sil2 put up with sil1.

[This message edited by Gottagetthrough at 1:02 AM, Saturday, October 16th]

Gotta, you post the same things about your in-laws quite regularly. It's been suggested, many,many times, that you go completely NC with them. That you stop trying to get them to have contact,of any kind, with your children. That these people are toxic to you, and your family .

Have you ever considered taking that advice? Have you thought about how peaceful your life would be? Of course you still have an abusive husband to deal with,but there's zero..ZERO reason to take on this horrible family as well.

Why..WHY..do you continue to engage?

You CAN NOT change them. But you can change your actions.

Hey HellFire, thats good advice and I do shoot myself in the foot every time I engage.

At first, i continued contact because my kids had cousins and other family i wanted them to see, including a great grandparent.

Also, SIL 1 is wealthy and we would be invited to do some awesome things! That made up for them being jerks to me. Id let it roll of my back (and then complain here) but get to do some cool stuff

But when they cut my kids visit short to go on vacation together, the second tike in a month, I realized they aren’t treating my kids well either.

Told MIL off, SIL 1 has left me voice mail and texted WH that I am not allowed to come to MIL or her house. But that he needs to come alone to see her (how weird is that lol)

So, I literally cant engage anymore. I think subconsciously this was my swan song. I had practiced telling off MIL for years, finally got to my breaking point, did it, and am not allowed to visit anymore. Should have done it years ago.

Where's your husband in all this?

Wh blocked them immediately following their texts to him that i was a bad person and had "attacked" MIL

He then was very cruel to me for a month, then not as bad, and now back to status quo.

He hasnt spoken to any of them since July 28 when this happened.

Mil sent him a card for his bday. He didnt open it. I did and it said hoping and praying we can be together at the holidays. There is no way he is going up there. For several reasons (one very practical one is his car is old and i will be driving the "good" car to my family’s…. So I doubt he would drive the older car all the way to MIL house)

Wh is chicken shit and wont talk to them. At first he was going to apologize to mil and say i was having mental health issues. Um, no.

I would never go back to mil’s. They said if we step one foot on her doorstep, they will call the sheriff. Okey dokey. You dont have to tell me twice. PS- thanks for giving me a "Get out of visiting MIL free" card for the rest of my life!

I posted this two weeks ago and have since gone to therapy and talked it out… i have realized nope, i am NOT the asshole here.

I am shocked still though. You havent seen your grands in over two years, and when they plan a visit, you plan a vacation with your other grandkids and your daughters, that they are specifically not invited to, in the middle of their planned visit to your hometown.

That is so bad its laughable. The inlaws are mostly definitely the assholes

[This message edited by Gottagetthrough at 7:02 AM, Wednesday, October 27th]

Yup, your MIL takes the cake for sure. Reminds me of my own mother on some levels...

Just some perspective on what may be going on in your WH's head with the "unbearable for a month and then better" episode when he went NC with his mom too. My mom is a narc (not as bad as some other peoples' parents, but definitely far along that spectrum...). I was very enmeshed and co-dependent with her when we got married. My mom's toxicity became worse and worse until BH refused to be more than distantly polite with her during formal (read: Christmas and MAYBE birthday visits). I would agonize over it because I couldn't be happy with myself unless mom was happy with me. Nor could I be happy with myself unless BH was happy with me. I couldn't have both of them pleased with me which was MADDENING (and co-dependent).

Anyway, I've been largely NC with my mom for over a year and a half now. I got to the point in IC to see more clearly what it was she was doing to our family. I still wanted a relationship with her since she IS blood and bore me and raised me... shouldn't I be grateful and loyal to her for that? (*THIS IS WHAT IS LIKELY IN WH's HEAD*)

That all ended when she threw a victim party for herself and demanded my sisters and I attend. She had a HUGE denial instance where she denied basically starving my autistic nephew for a whole weekend while my sister was out of town for a wedding. Mom begged my sister to watch my 2 nephews (older one is not autistic, younger one is). Even though my sister left ample supply of food he accepted, mom decided she was going to do sister a favor and "break him" of his food aversions because my sister was "too pandering and tolerant of his whining." He was less than 3 !! Oh yeah, and non-verbal autistic too. My sister's MIL was over at my mom's house that weekend where their shared grandson was upstairs screaming and crying unconsolably because he hadn't had more than a few veggie straws in 24hrs. My sister's MIL to this day doesn't invite my mom to anything of hers and is as polite to my mom as she is to strangers...

So, years later, Mom is still trying to figure out why we don't let her go anywhere alone with her grandchildren . We explained to her in a lengthy, lovely text exchange that starving your grandchildren (among other things... we should exchange stories!) doesn't show responsibility with our small children or respect for us as their parents. She then denied it happened, she "had no memory of it, I don't know what you're talking about." When reminded of sister's MIL and my verbal nephew talking about her starving my autistic nephew, mom pretended all 3 of us and my sister's MIL were crazy. Anyway, we all NC'ed her. I just continued it after my sisters decided to let her back in a bit from their conflicted loyalty and guilt.

I can sound sanguine and bitter about this because it's almost 2yrs ago from my NC and over 14yrs ago from when my mom started pulling her, "you're throwing your life away on him (BH)" shit before my wedding. When it was happening, and BH was pointing out the VERY wacky manipulative shit she was doing, I was so enmeshed with her that I would get mad at HIM. I would go along with his request for distance, be mad at him, and then come to terms with the fact my life is really more peaceful with less of her. *LIKE YOUR WH WAS DOING TO YOU*

The process for me to come around, each time more distance was made from my mom, usually took a month. Hence the month your WH took to be unbearable before he came around. You're good to be patient with him. He's likely mourning the fact that the mother he loves is different from the mother he has. These narcs are great at projecting and gaslighting their family into seeing an image of them they want them to see. When the game is up and the mask comes off, us kids are left mourning the loss of a person who never truly existed. Then we're doubly orphaned- first of the parent we THOUGHT we had, then mourning the loss of having to go NC with the parent we ACTUALLY have.

Sounds like his family was as toxic as mine. Now you've been swimming in the same poisoned water he grew up in and starting to wonder if it's normal to be treated like shit and manipulated. Glad you got out of the pond and refused to swim with them.

MIgander-

I think you are 100% right.

The longer I am away from the situation, the more I realize…. WOAH. They are jerks!! I cant believe I put up with that!

Things I asked on here, not knowing if i was overreacting when i got offended, are now definite, "That was bad behavior on their part. I am allowed to be offended, and actually, being offended is the normal feeling from being treated like that"

I was looking at Facebook a few hours ago and mil popped up as a friend i might know She has a picture of her with the "whole family" (her daughters and their husbands, and their children). On that vacation we were told there was no room for us on, after we planned to visit and they decided, after hearing our plans, to take a vacation with just them…

I looked at that picture and thought, "how could you go on vacation, after fighting with your son and knowing he was planning on visiting you during that time, have a good time and post pictures of you with two of your 3 kids and 6 of your 9 grands…. I dont know if it was an intentional slight (both mil and a sil changed their profile pics the day they returned from vacay to a "family" pic with all 11 of them in it. ). Or if it was a tone deaf move that they didnt realize would be hurtful.

But whatever it was, when they saw my daughter’s social media picture that showed she was in their town (7 or 8 hours from where we live) and that she didnt come see them, ooooohhhh….. my DD got a bunch of texts from them then!

They have made their bed abd now can lie in it. I’m sure the narrative is "Gotta is a bitch and doesn’t let us see the kids"

But who’s she telling? No one that I care about! Have fun with 1/3 of your family thinking you suck!

But whatever it was, when they saw my daughter’s social media picture that showed she was in their town (7 or 8 hours from where we live) and that she didn't come see them, ooooohhhh….. my DD got a bunch of texts from them then!

Ugh! You live your life and then they go after your DAUGHTER. GRANDMA AND AUNTS AND COUSINS. Yeah, NC for both of you and don't look back. It would be a good lesson for DD in assertiveness and not putting up with crap, even from people who are "supposed" to love you.

I have a hard time with my own sister- she was verbally, physically and emotionally abusive to me growing up. We've reconciled, but remain distant. Either way, she was supportive of me seeking a divorce when my affair went down. Now that BH and I are working towards R, she's not so supportive. And lets me know in VERY strong ways what she thinks about it. I'm definitely learning my lesson about oversharing and NOT being open with people when there's a struggle. That's another post for another day though.

Good luck with your in-laws. It looks like you and my BH hit the "crap-in-laws" jackpot.