SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Codependency isn't a character flaw nor does it suggest in any way you have responsibility for the addict's shit choices. It means you are a loving, nurturing person who cares about a spouse. That addict caused your NORMAL HEALTHY actions to morph into things unhealthy and dysfunctional for you. You very well have never done any of that, I did, but I think it's a wise course to examine your behavior so as to not continue hurting yourself.

Also, there is a WORLD of difference between SA and SAA. SA says NO sexual activity with other than a commited partner, including ONESELF, SAA allows the addict to define their own sobriety.

[This message edited by Lionne at 9:54 AM, August 24th (Saturday)]

If our partners have NPD, there truly is no hope. It's hard to diagnose, though. And, addicts are all very, very selfish. I continually assess where I think my husband falls on the continuum of narcissism. I don't think he has NPD, though I do think he is pretty far along the continuum on self-centeredness.

At a certain point, I'm not sure it matters whether or not they can be officially diagnosed as NPD. Mine was too "nice" for me to assume NPD except that the "nice" was an act because he was too cowardly to be confrontational. I don't care whether or not my ex is NPD. He has the selfishness and entitlement of one. That's all that really mattered. Addict, BPD, NPD, who fucking cares? He ultimately behaved like an asshole who didn't care about anyone other than himself.

Such a deep sharing going on, here. Thanks everyone.

Long post warning! Many of you know some of this story.

But mention of the trauma we experience in the early days, vividly brought back for a moment 17-year old memories of my total fear of my life imploding financially, if I followed my gut reaction and just D'd this man. That really sucked, and it is true, nobody knows how it feels, if you haven't lived through it; even my own family couldn't imagine why I didn't just D! Well, because I knew then that I had built a house of cards for myself, gambling 100% on a marriage at age 46 to this man I'd dated for 4 years. We both had jobs during those dating years; I even earned a bit more than he did, and he had moved into my home. Sounded good, right?

But...by the time D-Day 1 came along in the 4th year of our marriage, I had long since left a job I found miserable because - get this - I truly wanted to spend time with my honey, traveling with him, as he was a road warrior. And I think I bought into the hope that 2 could live almost as cheaply as 1. I didn't want to be one of those wary middle-aged women who held on to her own life, and just "tacked on the husband." One marriage preparation book had actually warned about doing that - keeping separate money and careers - as being a bad sign for a couple's future happiness. (Yes, I am serious!) But our work schedules never allowed me to be off work when he was. He'd be gone for one week each month, get home on a Monday night, and be given Tuesday off, with no notice. Meanwhile, I had an office job M-F. (The fact this bothered ME but not HIM, did not escape my notice.)

Then, I compounded my folly by deciding that he and I must just need a bigger place to live, since arguments about his messy habits were getting frequent (a lifelong slobby bachelor wasn't proving easy to "house break"!) After a year spent looking with him, I found a rural property big enough to suit him and inexpensive, as it needed everything. We signed a contract for it, planning to raise the money from the sale of my house. It didn't sell before the new property's closing date so, instead of backing out of the contract, WE decided to refinance MY home mortgage, to one that of course would have to be in BOTH our names, to raise down payment funds and pay off some credit cards.

I was unsure if he truly wanted to take that on, but he assured me over the phone from Florida, the night the loan officer had called for our decision, to go ahead and start the refi process. He then hung up the phone, immediately dialed an escort, and bought himself a young room service "lingerie model and fuck" for $300. I guess he wanted a "cut" from the obligations he secretly resented so much, but naturally, it wasn't until 8 months later that I got the beginning of truth, long AFTER we'd executed all the new mortgages! Hahaha joke was on ME.

What a dirty double-cross!

Because now, I had no job, I was 51, 2 properties to pay for, with HIS name on MY house mortgage. I realized that even in a Divorce after such a short marriage, I couldn't qualify to refinance my home without a recent history of income to show the bank; the basis for repayment was ALL his. My former salary wouldn't buy me any credit! So, a big part of the trauma for me was in recognizing that this man I thought I knew seemed to have waited years, until I had secured his lifestyle and had placed myself in a financially more vulnerable situation, to act out with prostitutes. So much for trust.

Only after months and months of my relentless, until-2 a.m.-questioning, did he eventually confess that he had lost his virginity to a prostitute at age 19 and went on to doing that all of his adult life. Which helped me put the events into some kind of context: this is who he really WAS!

And still, it took 5 more years of his lies before I found a massage parlor receipt, stashed in one of his old carry-on pieces of luggage, proving my suspicions from Day 1, that he had already begun acting out at least a year before the refinance. Why didn't I have any idea? I cannot answer that.

Sorry about the lengthy post, but when people say "financial reasons not to divorce," the sobering warning I got from a lawyer about my financial vulnerability if he were to leave me hanging with all that debt was my main fear, and I wanted you all to know it wasn't an irrational fear on my part. It was just reality: I believed I stood to lose everything I had worked for in my later adult life, after already having lost my first home I built during the recession of 1981 and gotten D'd. History seemed bound and determined to repeat itself, and I felt I'd likely lose all I had ever worked for, once again. "Financially retraumatized," is that a thing?

Justice was eventually served on D-Day 2, which happened 12 long, unhappy years later. This time, he had decided to act out (on my birthday, Dash!) and got arrested, but this time, it was about one year after I'd talked him into paying off our big mortgage on the rural property where we live with overseas money he'd inherited (and hid from me at his family's suggestion, until I discovered it!) By doing that, he thereby legally "commingled" that money as marital assets.

The week he was arrested, I saw a lawyer, and asked for a Post Nup that would not only allocate assets, but would set a 30-day time frame for him to (1) deed that rural property to me, free and clear, and (2) pay off the old house mortgage and assume ownership of it, releasing me from that burden. To keep his world from imploding, he did all that. I had planned to D, but again, got scared by a lawyer! The Draft Property Separation Agreement I was given made me see I would have inadequate funds to live on until I got a paying job. Real estate assets are not liquid, and there are few jobs where we live. So I backed it down to a Post Nup, as he didn't want D. My lawyer seemed to think I was a little overly-afraid, but he reluctantly redid the Agreement. It wasn't all that different, really, other than we are "still married on paper."

I'm finally old enough to draw Social Security and I know I could have him move to "his" house if it got too bad. But I am 68; looking back, I think "what a waste of what could have been a lovely life."

If you have read this far, I hope you will reflect on the long-long-range outcome for you, if you "suffer and stay put until he gets his shit together." The older I get, the less I am pleased with those decisions I made; yet the more I feel a need for some kind of companionship. Don't end up like me if you can help it.

[This message edited by Superesse at 2:14 PM, August 22nd (Thursday)]

(((((((Super)))))) So much pain, so familiar your story. My H had inheritance money too. I forced him to put it into a joint account, he drug his heels but his fellowship put pressure .on him, told him it was a small price to pay.

Other accounts we own are joint but quite a few are individual. Since I took over accounts (a professional handles most long term investments) I have saved a lot. Recently we redid our post nup. We'd both take 1/2 of everything and keep our accounts. I'd be slightly ahead in terms of income but not much. I can tell you that that realization has been a freeing experience. I've wandered through neighborhoods on Zillow and fantasized about a single life. I don't do "out and alone" well, but love alone in my house.

I was attacked in another thread when I stated that every woman that choose to be a SAHM should absolutely do something that enables them to support themselves. I respect SAHM. I couldn't do it, it's far easier to manage 28 first graders.

Protect yourself in whatever way possible.

((((Lionne)))) I too went through zillow doing the fantasy downsized home for my old age. Trouble is I just never find any place that excites me enough to really start the wheels turning, and I do really feel attached to this old place after I spent 12 years slaving on it and still am not done. I sorta made it my life work after D-Day 1, besides going back to school and getting my degree. So the plusses and minuses always end up with me sitting tight here (it is already my home anyway now, he had to surrender all marital rights and is actually my "guest." Rather unusual, my lawyer told me. But legal in our state.)

Only thing that I sometimes think I didn't go far enough with - short of D'ing - is how I should feel about him carrying massive credit card debt and continuing to live here. He always has kept huge balances on them (stupid!) rather than pulling more inheritance money out of savings to pay off his cards (that he uses to fund OUR expenses.) I suspect it is because he doesn't want his folks to see him blowing through his inheritance too fast. They don't even know about the Post Nup! None of my business, and besides, any funds he still has overseas, if he were to pass, even though he did a Will bequeathing it first to me?....Ha. Ya, right. I'd never see a penny of it, I bet. No problem. Wasn't mine to begin with.

Due to the clause in the Post Nup that assigns him total responsibility for all credit cards that he is sole authorized user of, I have stayed out of his money management, as I was assured by my lawyer his debts could never become my problem. (And I think that is true, UNLESS we had originally signed for those cards jointly, but we didn't.) I do have one old card he is still on; he could do a phone charge on it, I realize, if he wanted to. But he never has, and he does pay it off every month for me, in full. Once I start drawing SSI, I probably should apply for credit in my own name and cancel that last joint card, and stop being such a "kept woman."

Ironically, the only reason I ever put him on any credit card with me, was because the immigration lawyer he saw, while we had to apply for Permanent Resident Alien status for himself using our marriage as basis, advised me to put him on a credit card or two, if I wanted him not to face deportation! I had to show we were "really sharing accounts." We had been married maybe one year at that point. (He has always sworn he didn't decide to marry me for any reason like that...but you have to wonder.)

Oh, see, that's another little fact he deliberately withheld from me during the entire 4 years we dated and as we planned our marriage: that he had been working and living illegally in the USA 7 years before I came along. I was just too naive to ask those kinds of questions! I just "assumed" all was good, he had a good job, etc.

Do I feel like a stupid, naive little girl from some fairy tale story, circa 1950? You bet I do.....

[This message edited by Superesse at 6:11 PM, August 22nd (Thursday)]

(((To all of you))) The years or decades of pain are palpable here! I have read all recent posts, right to the end even Superesse...and I fear I will regret staying. It’s my biggest fear, more than finances and splitting time with my children. My children have always been my biggest reason to stay but now I am wondering if I would be a happier better version of myself if I left. Its overwhelming stuff. I am not suicidal, but I often think about crawling in a hole to die over dealing with the reality of my marriage.

Codependency isn't a character flaw nor does it suggest in any way you have responsibility for the addict's shit choices. It means you are a loving, nurturing person who cares about a spouse. That addict caused your NORMAL HEALTHY actions to morph into things unhealthy and dysfunctional for you. You very well have never done any of that, I did, but I think it's a wide course to examine your behavior so as to not continue hurting yourself.

Lionne, thanks for this. Codependency to me was an additional slap in the face! I went to alanon and IC and read a few books before I had this realization that I was codependent. It hurt deeply to realize that unknown to me I was enabling my WH drinking through some of my own behaviours...denial, controlling drinking/situations, making excuses, etc. He had a lot of consequences not felt by my actions. I hate that! But I only thought I was trying to make life easier for our family, smooth things over to protect our children and make a happy childhood for them. When it comes to SA behaviour...I was so

Gaslighted and manipulated that I didn’t see it or know it...was I codependent there too? Perhaps. It just became a way to survive difficult times without knowing codependency was also a problem.

I hate all of this and just want it to end. I really do. It sucks.

Right now, I think my WH is planning a vacation for our 10th anniversary...wtf right. I know he is trying I suppose but I’m not into it. And what sexual expectations will there be a plane ride away??? I just don’t trust him and his intentions and actions to reconcile are not trusted either...whether they should be or not I have no idea. It’s crazy making...only thing making this any easier is that he isn’t drinking...

..only thing making this any easier is that he isn’t drinking...

Actually I don’t think this is true...when he was drinking and behaviour escalating...I was ready to leave him! It was only me telling him I wanted to separate that initiated rehab...so maybe this is making it worse as now I don’t know what to do?!?

My gosh, so frustrating and not the life any of us deserve.

I don't mind telling you guys that I have been financially wrecked by leaving. I couldn't afford to send my son to college, he's on student loans instead. I can't help him at all, his dad (previous marriage) and my parents are doing that. I bought a house, but I had to cash out most of my 401k to do it. I am 46 years old and am starting over for the second time in my life due to a marriage ending. I have no savings and I'm paycheck to paycheck. I have essentially all the same bills that I did when married, but less than half the income. I had to sell my classic Corvette, which broke my heart. I buy my clothing from consignment and thrift stores most of the time. If my first ex husband weren't paying child support better than he ever has, I'd be working two to three jobs right now just to make ends meet.

Still don't come close to regretting it. I'm still utterly thrilled to be on my own. ALL of my long-term plans got thrown into the scrap heap and my retirement funds are practically nil, but fuck it. It's still better on my own. I'm not being cheated on and I'm not with an addict. Very few people divorce an addict and aren't broke for a while afterwards. I don't have the lifestyle to which I had become accustomed, but I have myself and my kids and I will figure it out.

I have serious doubts that I will ever get married again. Marriage hasn't been the best financial decision for me so far, lol. I think I'll just go with the plan of getting myself in better financial shape and rebuild what I can for the future.

You know what's WAY worse than being broke? Checking your partner's phone to see if he's been cheating. Worrying about why he's late or what he's doing when he's out of town. Fearing one more relapse. Let me tell you, that shit put being broke in perspective. There are no collection calls that compare. There are no financial worries that come close to competing with that. There are no shoes that one can't afford that are a blip on the radar in comparison to all that. It's all perspective.

Dee, my turn to say: "OMG, Preach it!"

Just think, even starting over as you are, you have only just reached the age I was when I made the worst mistake of my later adult life by marrying this closet SA. I had a couple happy years, it is true. I don't usually focus on those, however, because I now know he wasn't a guy I would ever have chosen to date, let alone marry, had I not been grievously lied to about his history with no means of verifying what he told me and Not.One.Clue. during the 4 years we dated - other than a certain distance he kept from making any "future talk." (But one might think "that could mean anything," right?)

Thanks for your vivid perspective message, we all need this! I am sure as you put more miles on your new life, things will be restored. Money can be earned, whereas assholes can only be tolerated.

Somber I do go on...had to smile at "...even Superesse." 😀 I hope that by sharing how I got to where I am today, others might go away with some more thoughts, or perspective as Dee calls it, on what it's like when you reach what everyone tells you is "old age" and find yourself having more regrets than satisfaction about your overall life decisions. Because as we all can appreciate, "making no decision" actually IS a decision. It has taken me a looonnnngggg time to admit this to myself. When we are in the middle of one crisis after another, as we often are, we cannot "see the forest for the trees" in front of us.

But if you find yourself frequently wishing your life was over, I think you feel even worse than I often feel. So please think again about your options.

Blessings to us all!!

Dee, I'm sorry you are enduring this. But it's clear you have the right mindset. You will thrive, I'm sure!

Most of these guys are sick puppies. I do have compassion for my husband. I feel that, but don't allow that compassion to interfere with much stronger and important compassion for ME. He is working to heal, but it's all on him.

Super, the ONLY way I found out anything was because we had joint accounts. I can only imagine the horrible consequences if he'd had more secret money. I'm sure it would have been spent. When he received an inheritance, he did keep it separate, fine with me. Then he "accidently" left a bank statement where I could see it-I wasn't looking. The extent of his strip club visits were right there. In addiction, he'd deposit his paycheck and skim a few hundred dollars off. I pressed for direct deposit, he raged, I backed down. That's where my codependency showed up.

If any younger folks are reading, PLEASE make sure you have some financial plan. It is urgent, IMO that you have your own source of income.

Reading in Divorce and Separation shows the proof in this situation.

Lionne, I hear you. Good advice to always have a plan.

After D-Day 1, I did pull credits reports and went through every single account to see if I wasn't aware of any (there were a few cards that had changed numbers over the years, some old accounts, and some closed ones.) That was a huge chore.

Then I had him pull every stinking monthly statement for every single account he ever held, and went back to the time of our wedding. Took days. Found no purchases he could not explain (other than quite frequent $200 ATM cash withdrawals in the early years, I suspect mostly to buy lottery tickets which he likewise never told me about, until I found the stashed wad of useless, wasted tickets in his fat wallet one day!)

He was never a money manager, but it helped that I wasn't seeing further evidence of other escort charges or "entertainment" (which is how I discovered the first escort! The dummy charged it to one of our few joint accounts....deliberately!? He had to know I'd see that bill, just as likely as he would!)

Then for a few years after D-Day 1, we went through all statements including our monthly bank statement, to verify all charges together, also so he could show me he really had stopped using an ATM card; that monthly review, and no more ATM use, were my financial boundaries from the first.

At some point, though, doing that had become more of a trauma trigger for me than I could handle and STAY IN the situation....because like many of you, that was exactly how I had learned about it, opening an envelop. So, I started to let that monthly review slide. Probably codependent of me.

But what really tore down the house, Recovery-wise, was when I saw an unfamiliar little folder icon on his open laptop one day 5 years afterwards, asked what it was, and he said "Oh, I was going to tell you about that..." My stomach lurched. You never want a conversation to start like that!

Turns out he had inherited a small fortune from overseas, had been told by his freaking family not to inform me (they knew he had cheated, and were still hoping I'd divorce him, so he could go home to Mom and Dad.) He says it was at his father's advice he didn't tell me.

Knowing how much credit debt he had continued to rack up (without any protective Post Nup, back in those years), when he could easily have paid it all off, and to realize he felt it was more important to pay hefty monthly card carrying charges, rather than have to tell me about his inheritance, made me conclude he probably was expecting a divorce, maybe hoping to stick me with half of the unsecured debt he'd incurred since the marriage...That realization destroyed whatever trust he had started to buildup with me, after D-Day 1.

I told him to keep his filthy family money and get them the hell out of my life! In asking how he came into the money when he had, he finally confessed how years earlier, he'd signed a promissory note at his family's request on the land that had just sold for his inheritance. That's also when I learned the worst part of it: if default had ever been called on that note during those years, the bank would have come after HIM for any unpaid balance, and by that time he had been added to MY home mortgage, thus putting my home in jeopardy of a potential overseas default judgement! I had lived for years blissfully unaware of that threat to my life's savings, done in spite of my stated request.

Another dirty financial double cross! And again, I had to stumble across the written evidence myself, long after the fact.

While I was relieved he got out of it all smelling like a rose, the fact his family had continued to tell him to hide assets from me all those years ended my relationship with the whole bunch of them. That was in 2007.

Today, I guess I don't consider myself attempting to build back toward an eventual "marriage," as he can never earn back that level of trust, now. We live separate lives, and I let him pay whatever bills of mine he decides to pay for the benefit of staying in my home and having my company (sounds horribly mercenary) but I really don't expect it of him "as a husband," since the Post Nup of 2014. So why continue to monitor his finances?

He is self-employed and I had language in the Post Nup, too, to make sure the government never considers me a spouse/partner (which by the way ladies, if your husband works for himself without a corporate entity, like an LLC or Schedule C corp., did you know that you, as the wife, are deemed by the IRS to be his business partner automatically, and you could be held liable for any unpaid taxes of his business? I had no idea!)

So ever since D-Day 2 in 2014, my final pre-Divorce action boundary has been simply: no lies and/or sneaky shit ever again while he sleeps in MY house, or his pillow and blanket will be in his car, packed for him that same night I find out. He has a place to go of his own, and my lawyer confirmed that I can ask him to leave any time, for any reason; no notice required, as he surrendered all his marital "rights" to the domicile under state law.

If he wants to blow more of his inheritance on hookers like the Prodigal Son, though, I don't even think it is my business legally, so long as it doesn't happen HERE.

What a lousy excuse for a marriage, huh?

At least my story isn't as bad as a young woman I know from our church, with 3 pre-teens, whose SA military ExH somehow put a second mortgage on their home to the tune of $50,000 without her knowing, to pay for his hookers! Divorce discovery revealed that. It gave me a chill, and I asked my lawyer to assure me there is no way that could occur in this situation. He guessed maybe the husband had her sign a Power of General Attorney at some point, since he was in the Guard. I went to the court house and checked for liens, after that story! (Good advice to do this from time to time, too.) Or she was "trusting" but not "verifying."

Oh, yes...the money. I am "lucky" in that my husband is cheap and he mainly was a fantasy addict. But porn is "free" (not really, but he's also an idiot and didn't get that). I know a woman who's SA borrowed all of his retirement funds, had a second mortgage, and had credit card debt for his addiction. She wants to divorce him but is responsible for half that debt. It's obscene.

So, we MUST control the money or at a minimum have access to information about all financial assets and activity. This is crucial. Women's support groups actually provide free or inexpensive classes on what to do about this.

ashestophoenix

Hi guys...sorry I have been MIA...

I wanted everyone to know that I read your replies and I appreciate them. I have a hard time directly focusing on my situation, without feeling like I am drowning.

I guess I have a hard time in personally accepting the co-dependent diagnosis because I see my mother and what she did and still does and I am disgusted by it. I put a lot of blame on her, while allowing the abuse toward myself. She is a very sick person.

I honestly didnt know any of what he was up to and I had kicked him out a couple of times, previous to DD. He ran out and got a lease, to "punish" me for asking why he is so distant. He came back to throw it in my face, thinking I would beg him back...to his surprise, I replied "I am good, you keep it"...lol who does this shit? I really did think it was over and briefly saw some guy (nothing happened) and quickly realized dating is a bad idea...its true, what psychs say in regards to not healing from a narc, another one will find you, to take his place. Lesson learned.

We lived very seperate lives, by his doing and I was so tired of feeling like I was chasing him. I was very tied up with my mother's illness. I was at a point where I could care less about much, in terms of him. He has always been very selfish and put himself first...placing blame on others, never taking responsibilities for his treatment of others. Just a miserable little man.

Dee,

I completely agree with your thoughts. At the end of the day, it really makes no difference in putting a label on abuse. A person capable of doing such things is mentally ill, any which way you look at it.

Following being abused for so long, I study human behavior like a deer from woods. I trust absolutely no one. Never really have.

Strangely, I do find it therapeutic in being on the wayward board. Something very odd has happened to me the past few months. Last February or March a friend of mine invited me to see a spiritualist healer, that she knew from her family. I went in with an open mind, not expecting anything. I also didnt disclose any information.

I still had a lot of internalozed anger (self defense mode) within me and the spiritualist knew this right away, along with knowing everything else. Long story short, he did a healing process and I left feeling drained, after I minimally revealed what I been through all these years, following the "healing"....didnt think anything more about it and didnt notice any changes right away. I just went about my day.

It hasn't been, but the last few months that I noticed the anger was no longer there, which gave into more sadness...it had surprised me, when speaking to others, on various boards, when conversing with waywards....it was no longer from a place of hatred.

Following that realization, I also came to realize the indifference I have for my husband. While I am not religious, I feel that something spiritual happened (god?) That removed the anger I had. I have no other way to explain it. I feel graced and thankful for it. It was eating me alive, I was not that person. Upon DD, all this anger from my childhood had made its head...all the rejection had made a peak and then...nothing. Wile my depression is crippling, it isnt anything unfamiliar....the anger was so toxic and cancerous.

I would read other Betrayed stories about about how they could pinpoint one particular thing being worse than the other, in terms of their situation and I remember thinking...."how could anyone decide?" I now realize (at this moment, anyway) that it was the chronic rejection and witnessing people blatantly chosing others over me...that has been something that I dont feel I will ever heal from...feeling as though I am never good enough.

In discovering this, I now know that my healing comes from within me. Years ago, I feared being alone, but my husband kept this wedge of resentment there. Before DD (while he was doing his shit), I recall camping with my son (something we do together) and dreading going back home to caregiver and continue a loveless marriage. I wanted to assume life as a hermit...shit, I still do...

In terms of finances, I didnt suspect anything. This allowed him to do what he did for so long. In my situation, I feel it is imperative, that I dont allow another person that much control over my life. Same with the phone bill... this was an enabling behavior, but I never would have thought in a million years he was capable of something so cruel and disgusting. I just never cared to keep up with it, other than through the phone. I didnt feel I needed to.

DD was also a strange occurence, in that I felt I was directed to the phone bill. I honestly feel there are much larger things playing into my life, the past few years.

[This message edited by DashboardMadonna at 12:49 PM, August 25th (Sunday)]

Superesse,

Omg... I swear your husband and my husband are cut from the same mould. The very hooker I discovered upon DD, was his farewell fuck, in regards to us signing a lease on a home... I guess he felt entitled, following adulting. The entire time he drug his feet and went on about how we hadnt money... Truth was, it was a total lie. I was working and he feared a cut-off from questionably aged pussy. Ugh.

Ashes, funny how you summed up in one short phrase my last lengthy post: financial betrayal = another form of abuse =or> adultery, as it can wipe out your life without you even being aware of it.

So you summarized "oh yes...the money" and that makes me realize how not-uncommon these kinds of horror stories must really be. I do wonder about the woman you know whose SA ran up credit cards and got a 2nd mortgage without her knowledge. I can only assume that when that happened, there was no notarized Post Nup Agreement specifying separate debt responsibilities and who owned the house, if you know?

The other thing I wonder about when I hear these stories, is how ANY reputable lending institution would legally be able to execute a 2nd mortgage on their house without her signature as well, if it was already held in both their names? (maybe it wasn't?) Because I have been told that even if she is a stay-at-home wife with zero income, nowadays the lending institutions need everybody's signature before they will grant a secured loan. That may not be the case historically, though. I think it was a credit reform act of Congress that may have changed that. But if it happened a while ago or the man goes with some shady lender, then who is to say. And that just applies to US.

My SAWH gets frequent offers in the mail for credit card consolidation, too. I am sure some of them come with fine point regarding pledging assets...I try to get to them first and destroy them.

For all of us, it would be a good idea to periodically pull credit reports, as you and Lionne have warned; we do need to keep on top of things. I believe each of the 3 major credit report agencies allows one free report per year, so you could alternate and do one every 4 months for free.

During our Post Nup process, after I had executed a Deed of Gift granting my old house to him, he was also obligated by the Post Nup to pay off the balance of our old mortgage, by either refinancing in his name alone or coughing up more of his "secret" funds. But our lending institution refused to go along with a mortgage assumption, unless we could show them a notarized Property Separation Agreement. Only if we had one of those, would they have let me off the note, EVEN WITH NO INCOME OF MY OWN? It was a shock that our Post Nup wasn't good enough to make that happen. (So he had to get more of his money sent over to pay it off!! Justice!!! I was nice about it and gave him an extra 3 months....until his interest posted for the year.)

Dashboard Madonna, I am not sure if your talking about your abusive Mother has caused me to think back more to my childhood lately, but more and more, I have been connecting the dots about how a young woman's self esteem, as she gets ready to launch into the world, can be pulled down by having a mother who is self-focused, ill, Narcissistic, or even just Co-Dependent to an abuser. I think we girls needed validation from our mothers just as much as boys needed it from their fathers, what do you all think? When we don't feel we measure up, it becomes easier to look to peers or men for that validation.

The other night after your post, I had a realization: I have always tended to give men the benefit of every doubt, all my life! It really looks quite unbalanced, as I look back. I was in a male-dominated field, too, so I was surrounded by men all my life. I just always assumed they were fairly good guys....when someone, somehow, should have been cluing me in. As a teen, nobody worried too much about my dating prospects, so long as I just didn't date! My mother didn't think I'd attract anybody; I wasn't a glamor gal like she had been in high school. My father would tell us mildly sexist jokes he found in Playboy, to try and warn me how "all men were" and I didn't want to hear THAT, either!

My late sister didn't date in high school either, married young, had babies, but her life was tragically shortened by a difficult marriage to a SA too, and eventual divorce at age 51. She told me once that when she learned of his acting out while she was pregnant the first time (and the second!) she kept reminding herself how my mother had handled things with my Dad's drinking, and she just "didn't want to abandon ship like our mother did" so she kept "sticking it out for the kids." Or for her life story to end differently than did our mothers. All that produced was a 7 year false R before then he fell off wagon again, horribly; yet again, while she was expecting. Gave her HPV. She died of squamous cell cancer which doctors couldn't identify the source of, but my gyno doc said cervical tissue happens to be squamous. So who knows if that was what killed her.

I just can't help but wonder: were we negatively conditioned to be okay with SAs? You are making me think. Like, by what we DIDN'T GET?

Superesse,

When I met my husband, he had his license and he had access to his father's and friends cars, on occasion. I saw this as a way out, to get away from home.

Aside from the ticket to a remote sense of freedom, I thought him to be soooooo unlike my father. He didnt yell and seemed shy. I found myself attracted to seemingly shy/introverted boys in school.

Very quickly his true self started to show. The shy boy turned out to be about conquest, I realized later. He was distant and removed. Being a young girl, I didnt know any different and I was used to having my needs be ignored. I thought him to be "normal". I thought he was a peach, compared to what I had been going through with my father.

Upon my getting pregnant, I quickly realized this person was abusive. There were red flags, long before, but I hadnt any experience/education to go on.

Around the time my husband decided to split (I was about 30), I stumbled upon information, in regards to narcissistic mother and daughter relationships. Soon following, I realized my husband feel into the definition of covert...

Both, he and my mother are very cowardly with their feelings...manipulative...blame shift and lie.... they are literally worse than my father.

Overts are pretty easy to recognize. When I was a kid, I threatened to call 911, on my father....he simply said to go ahead, foster care would be much worse. Sadly, he was most likely right. My point here is that I always knew he was abusive. Overts dont make it a secret, when punishing.

Coverts fuck with your head, while getting away with it. To the outside world, my mother is a convalescing old lady, that uses a wheelchair as her angle. To the outside world, my husband is this shy, easy going guy that manages a business.

Both of these people abuse family members behind closed doors, while claiming everyone else is crazy/how they are suffering to anyone that will listen. Very shady characters that know how to work emotion, while overts work by way of being charismatic.

[This message edited by DashboardMadonna at 5:34 PM, August 25th (Sunday)]

Superesse, I didn't know this partner well who was in such a financial predicament. I do know she had lots of shame about her financial situation. I think her husband made all financial decisions and she just signed stuff. I had the same questions. She just trusted him. She didn't know enough about her financial life. She's deeply ashamed.

In the state I live in, pre and post nups are not recognized as legal documents. They're worthless.

ashestophoenix

Unfortunately, too many of us have been trusting blindly when we should have studied what we were signing.

The various state laws regarding postnuptial agreements are confusing, with all the questions on whether or not they are valid in a Court. It seems to be a state-by-state difference, for sure. That is why I didn't really feel all that good just having him do a postnup, but pushed my lawyer to include the real estate transfers shortly afterwards, not "in the event of a divorce" which is the usual sort of postnup language.

My lawyer had never done a postnup with those kind of teeth in it, and at first, he wasn't sure if what I wanted to do would be valid; he had to do some research. Our state has a statute for prenuptial agreements, and honors the idea that a married couple can contract with each other and gift each other property, so he eventually was satisfied we had a rock solid document, providing it didn't discuss custody issues (no kids) and was fair and equitable (each of us got property, so that helped). The lawyer added a sentence that my SAWH "had been advised to seek separate counsel but had waived that," to make sure he could not ever argue he was coerced.

But as ashes said, the laws vary so widely by state, that it is best to get these kinds of questions answered by a real life lawyer, not some internet law advice blog! There could be topics that would invalidate a postnup, such as: in our state, one cannot assign child custody or child support that way; one party cannot coerce the other by force to sign it, it cannot be grossly unbalanced from what the law would allow in a Divorce, and so on.

We hired a different lawyer to do the real estate deed changes the very same day as a notary witnessed his "voluntary" signature of our Postnuptial Agreement! (The title was "Marital Agreement.") He had already verbally agreed to what I was asking for in lieu of divorce, before I called my D lawyer to have it modified from the Divorce Property Settlement the lawyer had already done for me, to "just a Postnup."

I don't recommend what I did as a great solution, though, especially if he acts out again; all I feel better about is that at least the real estate got transferred, and a document notarized about which credit cards are his and which are mine, which could be helpful if one of his creditors tried to hassle me. All the rest would still need another trip to a lawyer!

When people add "infidelity clauses" to a Postnup agreement, It may be ruled invalid, due to the usual difficulties with legal proof. So don't try to add that kind of language into one, I was advised.

Besides, if you need a lawyer to keep his pants zipped, you have your answer, ladies!

Gosh, I guess I can be glad we haven't property.

He has 401 etc... in Cali, I'm entitled to half.

I have no idea if a post nup is legal here. It doesn't much matter in my situation, although it certainly would if he hadn't comingled that insurance money.

I think we spouses spend far too much time analyzing our contribution to this, and how we got here. I too had major dysfunction in my childhood, abusive alcoholic mother, etc. But I know several spouses that had IDEAL families, no major dysfunction, loving, supportive, etc. And they wound up with addicts. These guys/women are CONSUMMATE liars. They have had years and years of practice. I thought I picked someone with whom my life would be polar opposite of my family. He turned into my mother. Frankly, he was fooling himself, too. I know in my heart that while he may have thought that regular sex and marriage would solve his problems. Prior to meeting me, he spent 5 years in a country where, on the surface, the girls were sexually open and casual (the reality is that that country was more repressive to women than ours) I assume frequent sex was a part of his life, multiple partners. But his early sexual abuse at the hands of peers was key. His feelings about sex were completely skewed. Add to that brain based illness, which got worse as time went on, and voila, the perfect storm.

None of us did anything "wrong." Sure, we had expectations of marriage that wasn't completely realistic, but, most of us were willing to put up with the normal conflicts, socks on the floor, toothpaste in the sink, etc. The trouble began when we (I shouldn't speak for all of you) I began to put up with more and more problems, partly because I feared being alone, FOO issues, but mostly because I was too damned tired, dealing with two sick kids, one with a learning difference, one who was majorly high maintenance, taking care of house and home, working full time and doing graduate work. I did my share, more than my share. I've forgiven myself for being blind.

I mean, it's a good thing to analyze one's behavior in expectation of learning from one's mistakes, but really, it's their problem.

It's all on them, ladies. They choose this sick and damaging behavior.