SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Oh boy, an RA thread...

1. I feel that nameless and faceless would have been better, I got the "pleasure" of meeting each and every one of my wife's 5 AP's. (Edit, I actually didn't meet one of them. My memory must be going)

2. Without going into it at length, I feel like the original A is worse because the marriage contract is believed to be intact by the BS. Not that an RA is okay, I don't think it is, but in terms of degree, to me the first A is worse.

[This message edited by Idiotmcstupid at 8:47 PM, January 20th, 2018 (Saturday)]

Interesting that many bring up marriage contract. I saw it as a contract. I chose to break it. My wife sees it as moral and ethical values she refuses to break. Even when I did. She still held those vows to a higher level due to her spirituality and the promises she made to herself, others, and her God. How we view the contract seems just as important. Piece of paper, promises to other people..or..lifestyle, soul type of thing. hmmm

Zug- that’s a good point. How we view that values and morals and contractual aspects of M play a huge role in what we believe about the subject of affairs.

Some people are religiously and spiritually driven, some are logistically and conceptually driven, and the list goes on. Like you I saw it as a contract with someone I love. We are all mammals that have biological drives. Married or not EVERY human has attractions to others in life. It’s natural. But it’s how we deal with them that sets WS and BS apart. So while i May have found other women attractive, while I was faithful to my ex, I chose love and respect for her and didn’t act on attraction. She didn’t do the same. So once she showed me She wasn’t worth respecting, I no longer felt the contract of marriage applied. I didn’t see a reason to not act on my attractions because what didn’t I have waiting for me at home- someone worth my fidelity? I don’t think so. Of course I’m hindsight I wish i would have just known right away that I’d never forgive, and separated right away instead of sitting on the fence and becoming an MH.

Every situation is different.

Having an "RA" (which I think is a ridiculous phrase) allowed me to stay in my M, and for my kids' parents to not get divorced.

And if someone is not religious, it seems that they don't view their M to have any sanctity left after the WS shat all over it. Not criticizing the pious among us, just mentioning what I've seen here and elsewhere.

I don't see where the "till death do us part" portion of the vows that most everyone takes in a conventional wedding allows for "unless you betray me" interpretation. Death is DEATH. I realize that adultery was a biblical and even societal and culturally acceptable excuse for divorce.

But the taking of standard Anglican Church style vows was not necessarily requisite for getting married back in bible times as far as I know. The vows that are common nowadays didn't become the cultural norm until sometime after 1549 when the "Common Book of Prayer" first included them, if I understand the history correctly there.

So even if cultural norms and bible verses allow for such an exception to the one-ness of marriage to be dissolved (since adultery certainly pollutes that "one-ness") I don't see how those norms somehow negate or override a sworn vow/oath invoked on the authority of God and others present as witness to the integrity of the swearers that it be binding and immutable.

If a person feels defrauded out of the benefits of marriage for certain reasons, but feels bound to their word, integrity, conscience, faith, and oath/promise to never dissolve the marriage relationship for any reason other than death itself, then the motivation for a so-called "revenge affair" might just be a little different than mere revenge against their spouse as such. If a person was being denied sex from their spouse or their spouse was ill or impaired/impotent for example, then wanting to have sexual relations with another person would not necessarily be motivated by anger or vindictiveness against their spouse.

I'm not saying it would be legitimate or allowable within the terms and conditions of Christian beliefs, conscience, or typically understood monogamous commitments in most marriage arrangements. But it wouldn't have to be out of spite or revenge to have the desire or temptation to indulge in such a choice, much as some used to do with surrogate motherhood prior to modern artificial insemination procedures or having concubines or polygamous marriages. I wouldn't classify those as "revenge affairs" per se, I suppose, but they certainly don't fall within the confines of simple "monogamy" either.

So I guess I was assuming here that the term RA was a blanket term that applied to any kind of sexual activity with someone other than your original spouse while you are still married to them. People do in fact do different things for different reasons sometimes, I would assert.

[This message edited by Cephastion at 3:03 PM, January 21st (Sunday)]

Doesn't matter who you cheat with, a nameless face or someone I can put a face too is equally as bad. Now if it's a friend or even best friend that adds another level of hell to it.

The original A is only slightly worse than an RA in my book. With an RA not only am I trying to wade through the hell that is infidelity, I have at that point abandoned my morals. Plus you already know the damage infidelity causes before engaging in an RA. An RA is more damaging to the BS that does it.

[This message edited by CWBS83 at 3:31 PM, January 21st (Sunday)]

[This message edited by SilverLinings55 at 8:17 AM, January 26th (Friday)]

I'm fairly sanctimonious. RA is worse than divorce. At least it's honest.

"Having an "RA" (which I think is a ridiculous phrase) allowed me to stay in my M,"

Remaining true to my values allowed me to stay in mine.

? "Sanctimonious"? If I say that 1+1=2 or ask how a vow can be seen as legitimately breakable when the conditions agreed to for dissolving the arrangement haven't been met, then how is that "sanctimonious"?

In fact, I think that I even challenged the traditional paradigms we're kinda boxed into here to include people who didn't take such "death-only" vows or even for people who are doing things within different contexts or motives.

Or maybe you (SilverLinings) weren't referring to me or my post on this topic? Perhaps I should start a thread asking what people think a "vow" is. Or an oath. Or a pledge. A promise. Swearing allegiance upon pain of death is not a new concept, but I don't really see a precedent for doing so being necessary in the bible for a marriage to take place.

In any case, it was my vows and the belief that we were "ONE" no matter what she did in life, that compelled me more than anything else to stay true to my wife and marriage when she abandoned me two separate times to the tune of three months the first time and nine months the second time--all while actively committing adultery(ies) before and after her abandonments of me and our family.

She is now a VERY different person however, I am only just NOW going through all the healing from that trauma and betrayal, etc. Incidentally, we were BOTH each other's FIRST loves, sexually and emotionally speaking.

So if I sound like I'm trying to make sense of these concepts or for feeling somewhat curious about what it's like to just experience the thrill ride of total abandon and see if she would forgive and reconcile with ME like I did with her...yeah...there's a part of me that's mighty envious of the LOVE she got from me and OTHERS instead of the lies and leavings I got from her and everyone in MY world (of those that were still alive, that is) while she was "living la Vida Loco" with almost no guilt or shame or real financial liabilities for her actions in the process with the full endorsement of her mother and fully getting to keep both jobs and ALL her family ties in the process.

If that curiosity sounds selfish to everyone else out there, I guess I can understand that to an extent. But even God Himself gets jealous according to the Jewish and Christian texts on the subject. And 1+1 equaling ONE is mighty lonely and frustrating when half of that "ONE" can leave you in the dust while giving their ALL to 5 other guys while me and my integrity had to just subsist on "hopium" and Ramen noodle smorgasboards when I wasn't fasting and wailing from the pain of it all since my entire family of origin had DIED by the time I was in my first year of marriage at the tender age of 22...

[This message edited by Cephastion at 5:12 PM, January 21st (Sunday)]

But for whatever it's worth here, I'm not interested in a "revenge affair" as such. I just wish that there was more justice in the aftermath of adultery nowadays, and that I could have what I signed up for and was sworn to be getting in the first place.

And even APART from all of that business about vows and promises and stuff, I don't want to be rid of my wife. I LOVE her. And the idea of an "affair" actually disgusts me, quite frankly. Sex isn't a toy or a tool to me. It's intimacy and one-ness and joy and lots of other meaningful and even powerful things, including potentially being a weapon or power-play if used improperly and wrongfully, IMO. It's how we bring a new LIFE into the world. It's how we feel YOUNG like nothing else I can think of in a way.

I just wish there was a way to go back and get what was lost back there...that's all. I miss what we felt we had. She feels that, too. I wish I could have revenge on ADULTERY ITSELF, like if it were a monster or a thing that I could do hand-to-hand combat with the way Death gets swallowed up in the end or the way that Jacob gets to fight/wrestle hand-to-hand with GOD...and WINS...

I would veritably JUMP at the chance to do to IT what IT did to me, my grandpa (who inadvertently died as a result of her first adultery and abandonment), and what it even eventually did to my wife and her sense of self worth and hope for the future...

THAT'S the revenge I would seek. That and a SERIOUS restitution/spoils-of-war revenge reward for having gone a few rounds with that beast before killing it with my bare hands and teeth and anything ELSE I could tear it apart piece by piece with...

[This message edited by Cephastion at 5:08 PM, January 21st (Sunday)]

i agree with silverlining. I might have said it differently. once the fidelity in a marriage is gone, it's gone. you can't unring the bell.

And if I could get THAT much out of the deal, I'd go ahead and make that adultery beast remove all memory of it's ravages into our lives--including MY mind and heart, HER mind and heart, and also quite particularly the minds and hearts (and maybe rip out the reproductive/sexual systems) of the POS assholes who got to see and touch and have her for their own pleasure and enjoyments to the detriment of all things decent, right, and holy in us all.

I would make that thing remove ALL the memories, all the collective experiences, and all the damagethat was done to any affected souls in the matter.

But I wouldn't let the thing live. I would avenge myself and my grandpa and my wife's honor upon that thing for all I am worth and THEN some.

Maybe I could bring myself to lieto IT the way IT lies to everyone ELSE, and tell it I'd let it "live" if it would grant such wishes and penance to the victims of its insatiable self-indulgences.

And if IT had any "loved" ones it didn't want to see suffer...other lovers or friends or partners-in-crime...well...I better stop there...

Cephatian:

Not going to go into religion here per the site's rules, but I think it's important to take into account that mentioning what god thinks isn't persuasive to the non-religious.

And no I wasn't going after you in particular.

Can I also ask the reason why the OP asked question #2?

"What God thinks"??

Lies are lies no matter what your religion or lack thereof may be.

And I thought that promises or vows or oaths or sworn commitments were typically regarded by most human beings on the planet as being even further binding or meaningful than a mere statement of fact or intent. I think that may even be definable in a Webster's Merriam Dictionary--which is NOT a religious document or manifesto last time I checked.

Or is honesty supposedly only a religious concept now? I think atheists and agnostics are still expected to keep their word particularly when it's given in a legally binding or business setting to a certain degree at least.

Frankly some of the most honest people I've known weren't even religious at all. One of them was an agnostic co-worker of mine that is also a friend. And some of the most dishonest, hypocritical, LIARS I've dealt with and known were VERY religious.

I don't recall where I was citing God's opinion in this particular thing exactly except to cite certain biblical concepts in my venting about what kind of "revenge" I would like and also about my OWN understanding of what my marriage commitments were comprised of in essence.

If lying or breaking a vow or an oath is somehow acceptable within non-religious people, then maybe that's a belief system all of it's own. I've heard that the "great commandment" of at least one brand/sect of Satanism is "Thou shalt LIE". I would call that a religion as well, albeit one that is quite antithetical to most conventional ones.

If you have an honest answer to the question of how you or others address the dissolution of a "till death do us part" traditional marriage vow when both swearing parties are still very much alive, then okay, I'm all ears. Frankly, I'd rather see an end to that aspect of traditional weddings if the people invoking such extreme wording and conditions actually mean nothing by them.

I fully understand wanting to be freed of an emotionally abusive situation, person, and arrangement. I even advocate for such. I just don't see how people can so easily make and break such "pain of death" sworn oaths without even reckoning with that very likely included particular aspect of the terms and conditions of the marriage they committed to before witnesses and/or a judge or legal ratifier of some kind.

If that's still religious sounding of me to ask, then please explain how or why honesty and commitments and promises and sworn oaths/vows are entirely subject to the mood of the one doing the swearing/committing. Or explain what you think a lie or a vow or honesty or dishonesty actually is in your own view or terms.

Just because I am a Christian and speak as such on here doesn't mean that I am speaking on God's behalf or that I assume the worst of the integrity of non-Christians or that I assume ignorance on others' part regarding relatively common ground perceptions of right and wrong where giving one's word is concerned.

I genuinely am in doubt as to how so many other people work around what I see as an elephant in the room--including you, if you made any sort of "death-only" vows when you got married--whether you're religious or not.

Oh don't get me wrong, I didn't mean to imply that religious people are more trustworthy in any way (we are all here, after all, regardless).

But context is everything - you responded to my post (and I'm not religious) by invoking that language. Hence I pointed out that I didn't find that persuasive.

But no, I don't think religion (or lack thereof) has the slightest impact on morality, honesty, etc.

Does it matter who you/your WS cheated on you with. Is it easier if its a nameless faceless person or does that make it harder.

My WS cheated on me with 4AP's over 6 years. Started 18 months before we married and ended after our 1st born turned 3.

I found out about the A's 30 years later.

I met No1 AP, a quickie with an ex-boyfriend. I always thought he was an OK guy & still do.

I never knew No2 AP at all. She got pregnant from him and had an abortion. Was really 'In Love' with him. That one really sucks for me !!!

I met No3 very briefly, the night he came to pick her up. The much older Ex-boss that supposedly took her to a business function (....his hotel room). I remember, I still told them 'have fun - enjoy it' ???? as they drove off.

No4 the COW I knew because we socialized with his family - my spouse was doing it with him right under my nose.

So which was worse?

They are all pretty bad - but the one I never met is the worst for me.

I don't know what he looked like, what he was like as a person, I know nothing about him at all.....

Other than -

he was aprox. 23 YO

had false teeth from a sports injury.

walked around showing off with exposed torso most days.

was not circumcised.

I have no reference to compare with in any way. This bugs me the most. Not knowing that AP.

I think that those things that you don't know are much worse than the things you do know.

I suppose that is one reason why tt is so bad.

You must first know what it is before you can start the healing.

RA. I know, my spouse had a lot of excitement and fun with her AP's. That does not mean an RA is automatically on the cards for me. An RA would mean my values, the things that make me ME, would become corrupted. So for me I would have to say NO to an RA.

Hope this answers your questions.

[This message edited by iamanidiot at 2:24 AM, January 22nd (Monday)]

I am a BS, only 7 months post d-day.

Does it matter who you/your WS cheated on you with. Is it easier if its a nameless faceless person or does that make it harder.

For a nameless, faceless person, you used an example of a co-worker we have never met. Many times we do have some interactions with our spouse's co-workers and I would not want them crossing paths at work, that would have to change. It would not be acceptable for my WH to withhold her name from me as that would continue his history of secrecy during the A, it would be a deal breaker for me. I would also demand to see her picture because a BS goes through a lot of self doubt and questioning how they compared to an AP. To me, what our minds imagine, and the amount of time and effort it consumes, is worse than the facts. My WH's AP was a MOW who entered our closest social group through a mutual friend so now she is mutual friends with most of them too. It makes it harder to heal because I see all the selfies she posts on my FB feed when she tags a mutual friend. I don't like to see her face pop up when I am trying to catch up on my family and friends during the day; they are reminders of the A, and her, I don't need.

Do you believe that if a spouse has an A and then the other spouse has a RA that the original A is worse?

They are both wrong. A RA implies it is planned by the BS, out of spite. I will say this, the original A is worse in a sense that it can make some BS's more susceptible to an unplanned A, as the BS is traumatized and suddenly realizes why their needs were not being met by the WS and questioning every aspect of their life. If that WS continues neglecting and/or blaming the BS post d-day, more damage is being done to the BS's self-esteem and it might not take much to find it somewhere else. I have been betrayed, deeply hurt, in several ways over the years by my WH and had opportunities to make myself "happy" via another man but I couldn't do that to MYSELF, because I still had self-esteem and knew I would hate myself later. Now, after the damage he has done and my self-esteem is totally shattered, I feel I am at risk. I don't wear my wedding ring anymore because it is a constant reminder that my WH broke his vows to me, I can't believe how many men approach me now and start talking to me, give me their phone number...this happens in places I least expect it! I am not out cruising bars or anything.

It was a bit different in my case. My WW had an affair with a deacon and department head at the church we attend. (Well she still attends there...I don't anymore). After DDay I ousted him to the church and his wife. He was forced to resign and then he left.

My WW went before the church and asked for forgiveness and the congregation circled the wagons around her and pressured me to forgive her and take her back. I was basically told by the pastor and everyone that my WW's affair was my fault because I wasn't meeting her needs and being the spiritual leader in my home that I was supposed to be...which was all a bunch of bunk.

Well, suffice it to say, I told the pastor where to stick his bible and I left the church and never went back. Even after I took my WW back, they still wouldnt leave me alone. The pastor has made me his "project". He won't rest until I am safely back in the fold with the other sheep.

It would not have made that big of a difference who my WW had her affair with, but the fact that it was a church leader forced me into directions I didn't want to go afterwards.

I'm sure people will disagree with me, but opinion are like assholes. Affairs kill marriages. After an A, the marriage is dead and buried. RA's mean nothing IMO. I don't even really see it as cheating at that point. Cheating on a cheater? Give me a break. Do what you need to do. Once you decide to R, then it becomes cheating. I guess there is a window where its like 'Fuck it, do what you want'.

Good point Randy.

Now that my W and I have been attempting R, I would definitely consider it a standard A if I were to do a PA or EA, etc.

That's most decidedly NOT where we were in the immediate aftermath of d-day when the M was dead and buried, she was showing ZERO remorse, saying she loved her AP, seeing him multiple times after d-day, etc.

I can't fathom how those situations - a dead M with a remorseless W in the immediate aftermath of d-day vs. during a time when we have decided to give R a try - can be even remotely considered to be the same.