SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

When your WW's only two choices are acting like she's enthusiastic about her husband's carte blanche ownership of whatever orifice of her body he chooses to put his penis into or to be summarily divorced, there's nothing for her to save. I would advise any fWW in this situation to escape it immediately.

Yes I would agree, if WW can't handle the terms of the second chance then splitting up is the only thing to do. The WW should agree to a non-contested D and give her H whatever he asks so that he can leave in as good as a condition as possible to start the healing process on his own. My WW has already offered that to me if/when we do D.

"""he primary purpose for insisting that a WS offer that which was given to the AP is fairness. The second is a matter of demanding respect. The third is reclaimation. And the fourth is punishment. Any one of these reasons is valid—and enough.

He or she can say no. In which case: see you in court!"

in other words, let me do something to you sexually you don't want or I will divorce you.

prove you respect me by offering up yourself sexually. here, let me whip your butt for what you did honey.

nice. ""

Notice how the above sentence's meaning changes

when reference to the OM is made?

in other words, let me do something to you sexually you GAVE THE OM BUT YOU DON'T want to

give me, I will divorce you.

I will say threatening a WW is not the best way

to recover a marriage. But calmly stating a need

and working towards an understanding and an

agreement is better.

To CHERRY pick items out of context is not

how to win points in a discussion. Sort of the

trickle truth approach to exchanging view points.

It has been clearly shown why a BH needs to get

what the WW gave the OM.

It has been clearly shown why a WW does not want

to give her BH what she gave the OM.

Valid reasons for both.

What is not valid is the WW just flat out saying

no and equally wrong is the BH demanding it.

What is needed is open, honest, talking between

the WW and the BH. To find a solution that they

both can live with.

Last a WH and a BW cannot just look at this from

their position as a WH or BW, or even that of a

man or woman, they have to try and see it from

the position of if they were a WW or a BH.

Not ignoring that there will be sexual issues for

WH's and BW's after an affair. Though this thread

has mainly dealt with that if the WW and BH view

on recovery sex.

When your WW's only two choices are acting like she's enthusiastic about her husband's carte blanche ownership of whatever orifice of her body he chooses to put his penis into or to be summarily divorced, there's nothing for her to save. I would advise any fWW in this situation to escape it immediately.

Yes I would agree, if WW can't handle the terms of the second chance then splitting up is the only thing to do. The WW should agree to a non-contested D and give her H whatever he asks so that he can leave in as good as a condition as possible to start the healing process on his own. My WW has already offered that to me if/when we do D.

So should this always be the case then? If I can't tolerate that my WS put the OW first in bed, can I insist that in order to R, we only have sex when I want and that he may only orgasm if I want him to? Is that fair or punishment? Or I am disgusted that they had sex, so sex is off the table indefinitely but he must go down on me whenever I want? Or he can agree to a divorce and give me whatever I want in the divorce? All of our savings, the house, custody, etc.? Is this R? Or is it manipulation of a man who made awful choices and is desperate?

If you think that your husband expecting sex in a marriage is rapey,

Well not so much rapey as selfish. Let's take a husband who expects his wife to have sex same day home from the hospital after having a c section. Vagina not affected so let's go at it. Never mind the incision from.one side to the other...Yes I married a winner.

Interestingly, from what I have just read rape is defined as erect penis or inadimate object inserted into vagina or anus OF MALE of unwilling person. (Funny, anal forced sex on a woman, not mentioned).

Marital rape occurs when husband forces wife...

The closest I could find to what I would feel as a WW is listed under date rape and says it is a sexual assault in which the victim is psychologically pressured, drugged or sedated before the rape.

I believe this bothers me so much because of the pressure to perform sexual acts that aren't being done freely because the WW wants to.

I know I can never understand what you guys are feeling and I'm sorry for that. I'm trying to empathize I am. Its just in my situation there's nothing WH and ow2 did that I want to repeat. Nothing I want to win back or use to validate me as his one and only.

Marchmadness, outlandish questions. Though what

the WS and the BS do, want, need, is up to them

to decide.

If I can't tolerate that my WS put the OW first in bed, can I insist that in order to R, we only have sex when I want and that he may only orgasm if I want him to?

Sex only when you want, yes, that's pretty much a "always" suggestion for a BS. Male or female, if you're in a situation where you don't want to have sex with a person who hurt you that badly, then, yes, it's OK and you should not resume sexual activity. I'm not sure it's possible for a man to only have an orgasm when you want him to, what are you implying?

Is that fair or punishment?

As I said above, fair. Punishment, depends on why you are doing it. Are you doing it because you don't feel like having sex because your world is broken and shattered? Not punishment. Are you doing it because you want him to suffer, to hurt him, and make his life miserable? Then yes, punishment.

Or I am disgusted that they had sex, so sex is off the table indefinitely but he must go down on me whenever I want?

Your free to ask for that, but, much like a WW who refuses to have anal sex with her H after she did her AP, you stand a really good chance of ending up divorced. Just like a H who demands his wife "blow him" 25 times a day and finish it up with anal on demand; free to ask/demand it, it just very well will likely end in D, because the demand is unreasonable.

Or he can agree to a divorce and give me whatever I want in the divorce? All of our savings, the house, custody, etc.? Is this R? Or is it manipulation of a man who made awful choices and is desperate?

That's pretty much status quo for a cheating man who's wife is leaving him and for some men who leave cheating women and scorch the earth on the way out. But this, to me, is far more about punishment than "I want to experience the intimacy you gave another man". That is not, and will never be seen by me as punishment. And if sex with your H (not you in particular, general statement) is "punishment", then, I think you probably know everything you need to about the relationship.

Its just in my situation there's nothing WH and ow2 did that I want to repeat. Nothing I want to win back or use to validate me as his one and only.

Gently put, I'd hold that's because your a woman, and this is not something that women commonly want in R. Just like men don't really often want their wives to buy them things to R, women don't often want their men to have more/better/kinkier sex with them to help repair the relationship. It does happen, but it's not nearly as common as the reverse situation.

Gently put, I'd hold that's because your a woman, and this is not something that women commonly want in R. Just like men don't really often want their wives to buy them things to R, women don't often want their men to have more/better/kinkier sex with them to help repair the relationship. It does happen, but it's not nearly as common as the reverse situation.

Ok I agree partly because ya I'm a woman but it's not because I have avagina. I didn't want him to buy me shit or anything like that either.

I feel this way because I know that my self worth and validation and esteem come from within. Not one upping an OW. He could have bought her the world but it means nothing to me. It wasn't genuine. It wasn't "from the heart". It wasn't authentic.

Its my opinion that if I had to demand he do something that he did with OW with ME to feel validated that the issue is within me, not with his reluctance to perform the act.

Again that's my opinion.

In a way i agree with this....

If i was going to consider R in a relationship. I would want a better sex life in our new M. Not necessarily just because of what happened with WS, but because this is what I want in a new relationship. And i feel like i have the right to want certain things in a relationship if i am going to have one. If this is not compatible with the WS. Then that is their choice for sure. And although i will be very disappointed. I can accept that. Divorce. Heal myself, and if i choose down the line i can seek out a new relationship with someone, knowing what i am looking for in a LTR

The closest I could find to what I would feel as a WW is listed under date rape and says it is a sexual assault in which the victim is psychologically pressured, drugged or sedated before the rape.

Do you really believe "psychologically pressured" part of this? What constitutes "psychologically pressured" anyway? Asking more than once? Is it regretting what she did the night before? Are women not accountable for some of what happens to them? Are they not capable of removing themselves from the situation? Is it rape if she never says the word no? Do you see how that's a slippery slope? Isn't rape being forced to do something against your will? If a woman is sober, over the age of consent, goes along with the game, doesn't say no, and has the option to leave, how in the hell is that in any, way, shape or form rape? Give me a fucking break...

The heart of the matter here is don't fucking cheat. Play stupid games, you'll win stupid prizes. Congrats WWs and enjoy that prize you worked so hard to win - a pissed off, hurt husband who now views you as a pump and dump but he can't dump you so easily. Dumping you costs him time with his children and a potential divorce rape, so he carefully considers his options. I now see I was more invested in the M before her A, that has flip flopped. The rules of the game have changed. Sounds grand doesn't it? Just like Bridges of Madison County.

My opinion my not be super popular. But i look at it this way....

My WS has shown me through actions what they think of me, how they feel about me and how much they respect through the A. They have blown out our M.

I now have to make a decision on whether i want a new relationship with this person or not. They have already shown me that they don't care or respect me very much at all. And at least currently are not worthy of a relationship, but that could change down the road.

I am going to lay out what i want in a new relationship with them. Included among other things is going to be a mutually satisfying sexual relationship. If this is not possible then we just are not compatible any more....

Honestly, to me the WS has already shown me that we are not compatable any more....but i'm trying to be reasonable.

Do you really believe "psychologically pressured" part of this

?

Yes.

But...

Please.realize that as a surviver of molestation and rape I have a biased view. Any ultimatum that has anything to do with sex or sexual acts is to me, pressured.

Its a fight or flight thing for me. You may call it a consequence of having an affair and yes a WW has the choice to refuse. I see it as a "I fucked up now I'm going to be a slave to my husband's demands if I want to keep the marriage even if that means acting like the slut I was with OM".

I'm not denying your feelings. I'm expressing mine. And I don't deny that because of not only our genders but also our life experiences, seeing things as the other does is difficult, if not maybe impossible.

Let me just say, I read a post here referencing this post as a justification to not tell a BH the truth about the details of an A. And that pissed me off badly. Listen, we are all free to dispense any advice we want, but, telling a woman not to tell her H the truth about the sex? That's a bridge too far for me.

You want to know what to recommend to wayward women? It's not "don't tell the truth". It's "if you did things with the AP you denied your H, and you strongly feel you don't want to do it with your H, then you should D". Not "lie about it", or act like the BH's on this thread are wrong for telling you how we feel.

Sorry, that was really aggravating, you can say we're assholes for feeling this way, you can say we shouldn't feel this way, and you can claim that we're being "silly" about it. We DO feel this way (many of us) and all the wishing in the world isn't going to make it not true. That's been my hope from the beginning of this thread, is that WS's who see this will understand "not offering the BS what I gave the AP" is not an option, sexually or any other way. The options are decide you want to experience those things with your BS or divorce. Not make him/her feel guilty because he/she wants to be treated as well as the AP.

Ephemera- I’m glad you didn’t want or need these things to R, but many people do... it is what it is. And how can you say

If I could not trust what my remorseful WH was telling me, I would say "I understand that you are trying to tell the truth. However, I am finding it difficult to trust you because of your actions. Will you take a poly and put my mind at ease?" I would not threaten consequences, since his choice has to be his own. If he refused, I would walk out

.

isn this literally the same thing as do it or I’m gone? That’s not a threat? It’s jist confusing.

Another thought on this (because I saw the same sentiment ["I wouldn't make a demand, I would just leave"] expressed a few times). For many (most?) of us a lack of communication, particularly intimate communication, was an issue in the marriage before the A. It is one of the things we need to address if R is to be successful. That approach is not IMO, an honest approach to the problem. Your WS is not aware of your needs because you aren't making him aware. I think many men often think their wife expects them to just intuit what she is thinking and that leads to unmet needs/desires. Despite the fact that the man is not doing it intentionally it leads to issues.

IMO being honest and open about it is a better approach. Maybe the hangup is not that big, maybe the WS just doesn't realize the importance of the issue. Maybe she does associate it with AP in a negative way, but reframing it would allow her to move past it. Maybe she doesn't want to have BH think of her as a "slut", but perhaps being open about it would make her comfortable with the fact that he won't think that at all.

Maybe it will lead to an honest breakup. I guess I am just hyper-focused on honesty in the relationship right now. Just had a long talk with WW about honesty, even if it hurts, this morning after our counseling session.

I know I already posted this last night and had an awesome discussion with folks following it. But maybe worth asking this again?:

The BH feels like the loser. He feels like, because the OM had anal with his WW, therefore the OM is the winner.

He wants to have anal with his WW - wants her to offer it to him - so that she can choose him to be the winner and not the OM. He wants her validation. He wants to know that she values him enough to not leave him feeling like she chose the OM over him. He also wants to share physical intimacy with her, because he feels closer to her through physical intimacy than through anything else.

The WW wants to show her BH that he's the winner, that she values him. Having anal sex with him would show him that. In the process, though, it would remind her of what she did with the OM, that she was a loser for betraying her BH then, and that she remains a loser now. She feels like a slut when she looks back to how she was, and it reinforces to her that she is still one now, and the shame worsens. Also, she might feel like she has no sexuality of her own, that her own sexuality is defined by either her BH's or the OM's. That she is a tool rather than an actual person when it comes to sexual activities. Her choices to partake in activities, but still not her own preferences.

The BH feels low, crushed, emasculated and betrayed, and wants to have anal with his WW to regain his self-esteem. The WW feels that she has very low self-respect, and having anal with her BH confirms it, because it confirms that he has lost all respect for her as well.

And because we're talking about bodies, our most intimate of houses, and not possessions, it makes everything that much more personal and heartbreaking.

Does that sort of capture where everyone's pain is, now?

Also, this:

I would think that any human being, male or female, BS or WS, would struggle greatly with the feeling of being a [permanent] loser in their lifetime, wouldn't you? So that's why seeking out win-win solutions in R is so important.

Please.realize that as a surviver of molestation and rape I have a biased view. Any ultimatum that has anything to do with sex or sexual acts is to me, pressured.

Also as a victim of molestation myself, what we are talking about here is not rape, and it's insulting to imply it is. I have two friends that I know of that were violently raped. There was not a choice given to them.

There is some common ground here, but we just aren't going to see eye-to-eye. You are all saying you see it differently. OK. We hear you. It doesn't make what we are saying invalid.

[This message edited by xhz700 at 11:35 AM, February 21st (Wednesday)]

... we are all free to dispense any advice we want...

Yes, we are.

And after reading this thread, I would never again recommend to any wayward female that she give sexual details to her betrayed partner. I've read many infidelity experts who say the same, but before now I didn't understand why. Now, I do.

OK but not giving me the details that I ask for is ALREADY a deal breaker so please feel free to GTFO now thank you!

And after reading this thread, I would never again recommend to any wayward female that she give sexual details to her betrayed partner. I've read many infidelity experts who say the same, but before now I didn't understand why. Now, I do.

So lie about it or just refuse to be open? Either approach is a bigger dealbreaker to me than refusing a sex act.

And after reading this thread, I would never again recommend to any wayward female that she give sexual details to her betrayed partner. I've read many infidelity experts who say the same, but before now I didn't understand why. Now, I do.

Which your free to do. Just like I'm free to tell men "don't tell her shit and bury it" which is also advice that's often doled out regarding I. Doesn't make it right.

OK but not giving me the details that I ask for is ALREADY a deal breaker so please feel free to GTFO now thank you!

As it would be for me, and seems to be for many men.

I'll come back to it, because we need to be real clear on what we're saying here.

Option 1: Lie about it (because most aren't going to take "I don't want to talk about it" as a reasonable answer.. Because it's not)

Option 2: Tell the truth, don't make it right, and divorce.

Option 3: Divorce

All of those options kind of lead the same place, and, in effect, we're building a tautology; if a spouse cheats, does something with the AP, and doesn't want to do it with the BS, automatic divorce.

Which, honestly, I agree with. Because it says something deep (and disturbing) about the marriage to many of us when this is the case. And it doesn't say "I was desperate for ego kibbles" EVEN IF that is true. It says, "I loved him/her more" which, frankly, although we all tease around this issue, is very likely the reason that a BS winds up in this situation. The AP was better in bed, better talking them into things, better looking.. Just better. So much so that what I (the WS) did for them willingly is so distasteful to do with you I'd rather divorce.

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