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is anal or bj or whatever the only act that she did with AP and doesn’t want to do with her husband?

I'm afraid I don't understand your question. But I want to. Could you please reword it? I might be having a brain fuzz.

She does it because she wants to show her husband sexual love that no other man experienced better from her, that he is number one. He wants it to re affirm to himself that he is numbers ome to her too, and proceed to recommit with less doubt that he is actually number two.

Yes. Anal is one of the most ultimately submissive acts, for many people. By doing that, a WW might be showing her BH ultimate submission, and reaffirming to him that he is the winner.

NNM, when your xWW offered you threesomes, she was showing you that you were the winner. She was submitting to you. When you went and slept with the OBW anyway, you showed her that no matter if you were the winner to her or not, your xWW would always be a loser to you.

Perhaps a reluctance to engage in anal following infidelity can be part of that? Not fear that it will confirm the BH as the winner, since many WWs want to do that - rather, a fear that it will say that the WW is and will always be the loser. An acceptance of that role. I wonder.

In Mr. Silver and I's case, we're mad hatters. He cheated first, second, most recently, and many times in between, and shows little to no remorse, as evidenced by his refusal to come clean and his enjoyment of his infidelities when they were happening (I saw enough). I made a very poor choice and nearly returned to my abusive ex, during a time when Mr. Silver was already accusing me of being unfaithful. In my case, there was no EA, no PA, no physical contact of any kind, nor any hopes of something positive. I wanted to be abused. I thought I deserved it. I did not follow through. But because of my betrayal of him, because of my poor choices, I have accepted his hatred of me for the rest of my life. I have accepted the role of permanent loser (though interestingly, it was accepting him repeatedly calling me a b*tch, c*nt, and n*gger that did that, not anal), and I feel like I fully deserve it. And that's in a mad-hatter situation. With him, though, I still want him to feel like he is a winner, like he's Number One to me, because he is (along with Lil Silver, obviously). I would never want him to feel like a loser. It's one of the worst feelings there is, and I know EVERYONE here can relate to that.

I would think that any human being, male or female, BS or WS, would struggle greatly with the feeling of being a permanent loser in their lifetime, wouldn't you? So that's why seeking out win-win solutions in R is so important.

BHs: It could be as simple as acknowledging that your WW is trying to affirm you to be her winner by offering you anal, and - even though you might not want to offer her assurances - telling her that sharing anal with you does not make her a loser.

Just a few thoughts.

Silver,

I simply meant that if a wayward wife felt abused by her OM when she had a certain sexual act with him and then felt she could not share the same sex act with her husband because it brought back the feelings of abuse.

However, all other sex acts shared with OM are ok to share with her husband?

That is where I think many betrayed husbands have a problem.

And, Silver, your situation sounds heartbreaking and soul destroying. I am so sorry you live like that.

Maybe I'm in the minority here, but anal never meant any of that to me. Sticking it up someone's poop shoot never much interested me. Maybe I'm some old fashioned PIV type of guy lol.

I didn't like who I was with AP, I didn't like how I acted. It was humiliating. That's why I ended the A.

If my H said that if I loved him, I'd do the same with him, I'd think, "Ok then. I get to be disgusted and degraded twice. So be it." I'd probably do it. But then I'd just get a divorce. It would be quite obvious that I'm merely a body, a vessel to use for personal needs. Clearly nobody cares about me, just my body. Could it be more obvious? I KNEW the AP didn't care, but now I am confronted with the fact that my H also cannot, will not, does not see me as more than a possession.

Would I understand my H's "need"? Sure, and I would see that his need was to use me. To feel better about himself.

Maybe that's what affairs do, if a BH can't tame the DNA battle cry. Fine. Marriage over.

I simply meant that if a wayward wife felt abused by her OM when she had a certain sexual act with him and then felt she could not share the same sex act with her husband because it brought back the feelings of abuse.

However, all other sex acts shared with OM are ok to share with her husband?

That is where I think many betrayed husbands have a problem.

Are you saying that for a BH, her refusing to do a certain act because of feelings of abuse over doing that act with the OM, feel like they're invalidating his own feelings of abuse that she cheated on him at all? I can get that. At immediate glance, it feels pretty much like a no-win situation for anyone. I wish there was a way where both the BH and the WW could win, together.

And, Silver, your situation sounds heartbreaking and soul destroying. I am so sorry you live like that.

Don't be sorry. I got what I deserved. I am finally at peace with that.

[This message edited by silverhopes at 9:21 PM, February 20th (Tuesday)]

Silver, I had a hard time understanding your post, did you say your husband cheat d first, or after your infidelity to punish you?

It’s interesting- in my case I never saw my wife’s attempts at keeping me as her being a loser. I saw a shimmer of respect, love, loyalty and adoration in light form her betrayal. In fact, I would say that When I had sex with the OBW, it wasn’t as much about showing my wife she was a loser (not at all in fact) as it was about hurting the OM who dared cross me. I was out for blood in any form I could get it, and frankly killing him would have landed me in jail right? Sleeping with his OBW was the only way I could hit him hardest, and I did.

Winning and losing to me, was about the feeling of losing to the OM, not to my WW. I never held competition with her, I held it for a competing male. I was determined to have the last laugh - and I did, but at a price. I feel guilt now for hurting my Exw, despite what she did to me. I feel no guilt for hurting the OM. In fact, tiwisting the knife to show him he messed with the wrong guy felt good to me. My ex, well she did everything right in my eyes after Dday. But had she not I would have walked.

My point is though, it was NEVER about punishing my ex. I just wanted to feel love, respect and devotion again from the woman I married. I still loved her, and her affair didn’t change that, despite my pain. I can see what your saying about the WS feeling like a loser doing the affair acts again, but I think most BS don’t feel that way at all, in fact the opposite. I feel barn having hurt my WW, albeitnit wasn’t directed at her, it was directed at the OM. But back then, I didn’t realize infidelity was a dealbreaker for me. I wish I had, so I could have notnstring her on in any way, and dished it out to the OM without guilt..

Idk maybe I’m just rambling at this point... long thread..

Edit to say o was never rejected prior to my wife’s A, but they did things that we didn’t do often, but it was out of mutual choice. It hurt a hel of a lot anyways though, knowing that another man got what should have only been mine and hers.

[This message edited by nicenomore at 9:25 PM, February 20th (Tuesday)]

No I was referring back to your previous post where a WW felt that performing anal with her husband would further shame her. (I can’t quote on the cell phone so I’m paraphrasing what you actually posted.)

But my question is, if performing one sex act brought out her shame, wouldn’t all sex acts (performed with her husband after performing them with her OM) bring the same shame?

That's exactly the issue. WW already killed the marriage with the A. There's no debate. What happens next is just a negotiation of exiting or rebuilding the relationship. Rebuilding faces many obstacles. Starting with the first one being BS trying to heal while at the same time living with the person who hurt them. The person they trusted most in life and who is in most cases the mother of their kids. BS's can't imagine their best friend and life partner could be capable of stabbing them in the heart like this.

So it's a deal-breaker or not. If not, then there are lots of conditions to even make an attempt at staying together. One of those conditions for many men is sexual. There is no guide book for navigating the destruction of an A causes and no one wants to eat the shit sandwich.

Everyone chooses their own path for better or worse. Hopefully the pain eases over time and life can go on one way or another.

Silver, I had a hard time understanding your post, did you say your husband cheat d first, or after your infidelity to punish you?

He cheated first. And second. When I betrayed him, it was not to punish him. It was to punish myself for not being good enough for him. When he continued cheating on me afterward, it was not to punish me, I don't think. I think he just really, really enjoyed being single with other women.

When I offered him anal, it was because I really wanted him to enjoy himself. When I kill my own libido, it's to punish myself and for him to enjoy himself more, and because he and others shamed me for my libido.

When he called me names, it wasn't about the betrayal I committed on him. It was about the things he has accused me of doing from the beginning of our relationship that I have never done. It was about his paranoia. But just because I haven't done the things he accuses me of, doesn't mean I don't accept his punishment just the same.

My story is confusing, I'm sure. It doesn't help that we both come from abusive backgrounds. The main difference between us is, he doesn't feel like he deserves abuse. I do. Maybe that means he's a stronger person than me.

[This message edited by silverhopes at 9:32 PM, February 20th (Tuesday)]

Owning-aren’t you a mad hatter whose husband cheated first? I am a firm beleiever tht the WS contributes to breaking the BS, and their opinion of the WS. So your point about respect is one that is tricky. A BS didn’t always lack respect for the WS, the WS brought it on themselves, but it’s not about using. It’s about trying to reconnect and be reaffirmed that the AP didn’t get what the BS finds valuable and cherished more than the BS ever did. For men, that’s often sex. That’s how many BH feel like number one again... your body is not just a vessel. But how do you expect a BH not to feel like he gets second place to your AP, if you gave him everything you refused your BH? It’s an insult and a humiliation most cant take without it being made right SOMEHOW you know?

And in your case if your H cheated first, I don’t think he has ANY right to expect anything of you to begin with. He made his bed, it’s uo to him to do the heavy lifting, and consequently you have to own your own shit, but he is the original offender of the marriage.

Silver,

Nothing about that says healthy. It sounds awful and abusive.

Silver-I am truly so sorry for your position. You deserve better. If it’s any consolation, I don’t hold secondary cheaters in the same regard of error as I do primary ones. I know everyone has to own their own shit, but part of me knows what it’s like to be betrayed and try to grasp at anything after it. Doesn’t make it right, but at least, it’s more understandable to me.

The primary WS breaks the contract, shits on the marriage; and needs to own the consequences. Unfortunately, for MH like is, we need to own the damage we did as well, but it’s a reaction, not the offensive strike... idk just my opinion, many don’t agree with that though.

My body is not all of me, Nicenomore. It is only men that see it as the one and only important aspect.

Unacceptable and disrespectful.

I prefer divorce.

Eta: it is only when someone (my H) values the other parts of me that I would ever share my body. My AP? He got the worst of me. If my H can't see that, we have nothing to work on.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 9:43 PM, February 20th (Tuesday)]

But my question is, if performing one sex act brought out her shame, wouldn’t all sex acts (performed with her husband after performing them with her OM) bring the same shame?

Perhaps. We hear stories of folks - particularly WHs - who can't/won't have sex with their BSs after D-Day. Sometimes it's speculated that it's due to shame.

Or perhaps not. Maybe one of those particular sex acts already had certain meanings for the WW long before the A, because of her own experiences, or because of her opinions about it. Certain sex acts definitely have different meanings and different weights in a social context.

Why is it, for instance, that a man can typically expect a blow job during a casual encounter, but women can't typically expect a guy to go down on her during the same encounter? We've had guys here even confirm that they only go down on the women they love, yet they would accept blow jobs from women they don't love, back when they were dating. Does that mean certain acts are more associated with love while others are more associated with pleasure? Does that mean we value men's sexual pleasure more than women's as a society? Does that mean something (who knows what?) about the biology argument?

Perhaps anal is seen as more intimate. Or perhaps seen as more submissive. Or perhaps seen as a man dominating over a woman. Or maybe seen as a slutty thing. Or maybe it just really hurts and makes a woman bleed. I wonder what's so special about anal. I'm guessing different folks might have different answers.

Owning- I’m confused I don’t disagree with you? Of course it’s not all of you... I don’t think I’ve EVER said it is, for any woman. In fact I have said the opposite...in this thread. I never saw my ex wife’s body as her only value to me..just one part. I loved the whole package, brains personality and all. But accepting that another man wouldn joy things with the woman I committed to, that I subsequently had to accept I wouldn’t?thats not a proxy for your body being YOUR ONLY value, it’s a proxy for the BH not feeling valued enough to have earned it, after having committed so much more than AP ever did. There is a huge difference

so where are we in disagreement here? Your husband cheated, and you acted out in an unhealthy way.. but you own it... literally it’s your screen name. I am sorry for what he put you through. YOU got cheated on. He never had a leg to stand on and he knows it. And I said he doesn’t have a right to ask a damn thing of you, he set the shit storm into motion, it was UP to HIM to help you heal, not the other way around. Had he not cheated, and you had cheated first, and given the OM more sexually,he would have had to accept that despite OBVIOUSLY there is so much more to you than your body, a very key part of what he loves and likes, was enjoyed more by someone else than he ever would. That’s a tough pill to swallow, and not at all a reflection on your innate worth to men as a woman. Just a reflection on one, but one very important value your H would have.

You aren’t a loser, a vessel, etc etc. you were faithful and worthy of love and respect all along...had you cheated first, can you at least understand that if your H was always loyal to you, he would feel disregarded and cheated out of love and affection?

And silver- I was never a sexually selfish lover. I enjoyed going down on women, serious or casual, I never expected pleasure that I didn’t want to reciprocate for... just sayin...

[This message edited by nicenomore at 9:59 PM, February 20th (Tuesday)]

OwningIt:

A woman’s vagina is not the defining marital attribute. Sexual fidelity is, as few men would willingly give up dating to settle down with one unfaithful woman. Once a WW cheats, she has thrown away a primary purpose for her selection as lifemate.

But I digress. The primary purpose for insisting that a WS offer that which was given to the AP is fairness. The second is a matter of demanding respect. The third is reclaimation. And the fourth is punishment. Any one of these reasons is valid—and enough.

He or she can say no. In which case: see you in court!

And silver- I was never a sexually selfish lover. I enjoyed going down on women, serious or casual, I never expected pleasure that I didn’t want to reciprocate for... just sayin...

In that case, you're a unicorn and we're glad folks like you exist.

Why is it, for instance, that a man can typically expect a blow job during a casual encounter, but women can't typically expect a guy to go down on her during the same encounter?

Depends on the circumstances. If I am in a monogamous relationship with a woman, I will always give oral. I don't really like it per se, but it gives her pleasure and gets her ready so I enjoy that.

But if it were some ONS type situation, I wouldn't perform oral. Only because I don't know where she has been or who has been in her. It sticks up there for like a week... And I sure don't want to be licking another dudes cum.... But casual sex isn't really my thing, I'm always in some relationship, so it hasn't really been an issue.

Silver in a way, it’s what also made an A a deal breaker for me.. I never believed in being selfish, so I couldn’t process why others could and hurt me in the process, until I lived it myself ...