SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

To every author in this thread. When you open up your stories like you have here, you bleed a little bit onto these pages. I just want to continue to recognize that the cost of that is not lost on me. Thank you...again.

I, again, did not/do not intend for this discussion to be discouraging. As I've stated a couple of times throughout this thread, I, personally, would rather know the hard core reality of what I might be up against, even if that reality is more difficult or painful than I want/hope for it to be...than to assume I will get better than I actually will. If there is a "healing ceiling" up there (which I strongly suspect there is)...I think it's better to know that...be aware of it... lest I break by neck on it when I crash into it. Maybe that's messed up? I guess there is a real fine line between realism and pessimism...and I know we are flirting with it here.

That said, what I DO want to encourage EVERYONE in this thread with (even the "chronic" folks like myself) is that, if you read through these responses, there IS an absolutely UNIVERSAL encouragement present throughout this entire discsussion....

IT DOES GET BETTER. Full stop.

This thread, in it's core essence, is trying to get at a pretty narrow and fine nuance of exactly HOW MUCH BETTER? (I will think about the cocept of MMI that gmc94 shared for LONG time in relation to this). HOW MUCH BETTER?...in the endgame? When the curtain falls on my recovery, where exaclty will I find myself in terms of pain?...and other (I think of Dee's list of consequencial "damages" to her core personality) consequencial manifestations of affair/trauma damage? How much pain might there still be? How much pain SHOULD there be? How much pain should there NOT be? Is SHOULD even an allowable question?? Yeah. It's a fine nuance. And not just any nuance, it is, as we have seen and more importantly, LIVED...a VERY TRICKY and multi-layered nuance and anything but an exact science...

BUT...(IMHO) even those of us who still have acute pain in the long game (for WHATEVER reasons) and are caught somehere under our potential healing ceiling...or have CRASHED into it...or have endless questions about how much pain and "shoulds"...or find large parts of ourselves that have ahrd time recognizing anymore...yes even WE can ABSOLUTELY cling to that encouragement...

IT. DOES. GET. BETTER.

I hope you are clinging. Even with the possibility of there being varying "ceilings" of healing that differ and vary for endless reasons from person to person and you keep bumping into it...I hope you are clinging. Even if your pain is more acute than you hoped, or is worse than you feared...farther down the road than you expected...I hope you are clinging. even with more questions than answers. More doubt than hope. Even if your realism is not just flirting with pessimism/discouragemnt but has climbed in the back seat with it...

I hope you are clinging,

I hope you KEEP clinging.

I hope I do too.

Thank you all again,

WH

I do think that for some people, infidelity is a deal-breaker, and there's no shame in that.

This gets said a lot on SI. I’m not faulting the poster, but I think it unfortunately suggests there is shame if you’re among the “some” who cant just get past it being a dealbreaker. I think it might be productive for SI as a whole to reframe:

Infidelity is always a dealbreaker. Some people are able to find the precise mix of factors and very difficult path that leads to a successful reconciliation. In many other cases, that precise mix of factors is not present. Or a betrayed spouse is faced with a wayward spouse who, even if they may regret what they have done, does not have the right toolkit to be a successful remorseful spouse and healer. And no amount of counseling is likely to "fix" this deficit. Encouraging a betrayed spouse to "stick it out" in these scenarios likely leads to painful limbo, unnecessary guilt and more trauma. In every case betrayed spouses should feel empowered to embrace the possibility of a positive future without their wayward spouse. Not only is there no shame in this, it is a path which should be celebrated. Because it frees a betrayed spouse from toxic infidelity.

[This message edited by Thumos at 1:34 PM, Thursday, March 3rd]

I personally always think of it in that framing Thumos and kind of looked for that to appear here as it’s always a good reminder . I think the phrase gets used in shorthand, but it’s worth it to say it differently since we get new people all the time or folks who are not prolific readers.

Maybe we could possibly change the shorthand to permanent dealbreaker? I do think we are all very complex and different and for some divorce is the only answer because the cognitive dissonance of staying is going to be fixed rather than fluid.

I say that because I agree it’s a dealbreaker for every single person, even Ws’s. The dissonance for us lies in not feeling worthy of our bs. Our cheating and destruction is proof to us. For some ws it’s a permanent dealbreaker because the bs is always a reminder of our unworthiness. In fact I would take it a bit further and say that part is there for us before cheating. While quieter to us beforehand, it is often a precipitous factor. For many ws, that is also insurmountable and leads to permanent deal breaking as well.

Everyone experiences this dissonance in their life in one form or another. I find that the theme of permanent dealbreaker on here has many forms. The bs having a ws that is unable to get truthful and be a rebuilder is even a form of it. They experience shame maybe even more distinctly because the dissonance of not only staying with the ws, but trying on end to make the marriage work. Or a ws that does most of the work but doesn’t quite cross the finish line, I imagine that could create even a bigger conflict.

I think that is present in the OP’s situation because if she trickle truthed something for ten years his unrest prior to whatever new confession was likely from feeling that in some level. In my opinion his wife’s work lie incomplete in all that time because she had not regained (or gained for the first time? It’s hard to say) her integrity. If I have come to believe anything in this site it’s that the bs’s spider senses are often increased dramatically. He likely knew in some level she wasn’t safe for him but it was so hard to put his finger on why he felt that way. Instead he lived with the unrest of that dissonance for that whole decade and then has confirmation now on top of it. And then only can wonder what else might I not know? The mask she wore slipped off for the second time and we all know that is as devastating as the first time.

A ws can’t heal the bs but we must create an environment in which they can heal and keeping secrets is never it. I tend to think adding to the cruelty is he probably treasured his marriage before. Couldn’t imagine a better marriage. There is this lingering doubt about throwing that away. I know my husband stayed a lot in part time how our marriage made him feel prior to my cheating. I think part of me even banked on it. It created the same kind of dissonance in him that I had- not willing to let go until he found that similar feeling in someone else. But unfortunately that kind of beauty could never be found in an affair. All an affair is going to get anyone involved is trauma.

I think we can all agree that there is no shame in not staying. The number of people who come here and don’t consider that seriously at some point would be a a minority. I also think that there is no shame in changing your mind years down the road after having stayed. After all, in a healing process, we all grow to be different people. I have seen that happen on both sides too.

[This message edited by hikingout at 3:21 PM, Thursday, March 3rd]

Thanks so much Thumos for bringing that thought into the twilight of this thread. It's aprreciated.

And thank you again, HO, for your as-always well crafted follow up. In the interest of full disclosure, I did hedge quite a bit in this thread personally. I guess I wanted the discussion to be more about the overall concept I was floating out there than about my personal, specific, circumstance. I'm really churning much of what you said, and you're likely accurate about the cognitive dissonance and "spidey sense" things. I have lots of my own best guesses as to why my pain remains (and I understand that less than a year removed from the most recent D-Day explains EVERYTHING in that regard...but I know, as I stated previously, the genesis for this probe started in the interim 10 year period when I thought I had all the most relevant info...I was in pretty modereate and regular pain right up until D-Day 2...and this was with my WW being willing to do almost anything I asked to help me). But my head spins trying to sort it. As you noted before, yes, obviously as a pastor I'm pretty passionate about my faith tradition. That adds an enomrous strata of stuff that affects my processing of all this betrayal. In short, I Prodigal Son'd the sh*t out of it. I extended what pretty much anyone would view as a startling amount of up-front grace. And (this may be very hard to believe) but I honestly think I did that without rug sweeping. My eyes were as open as I think they could be as I offered that. If you read my (also novel-length) story you know that my wife requested a "shield" of sorts from the details. And as part of my uber-grace... I gave that to her. If I had to bet the house on any one single possible reason why I am/have been on the protracted recovery arc...I think that would be it. I was haunted by the potential of the details for that decade, but every time I would walk up to that doorstep of opening that vault...I would reach for that radical grace gear...and step away. I did, over the course of that decade, ask three questions that I just could not, no matter what, wrestle down for some (who knows?) reason. I had to know where, if there was protection, and if she planned on having a life with him. I got those answers and it seemed to be enough...but I still carried this chronic pain.

I'm starting to ramble I guess. I guess I'm just trying to say (still trying to keep in the original spirit of this thread) that there are an incredible amount of insanely complex things that converge in this infidelity vortex that can, I think, lead to a lingering, chronic, pain. I was/am her only. I suspect this is huge. I DID treasure the marriage (and in fairness, she did too...literally right up until the moments) she didn't). I've always been, personality wise (among a lot of other things) firecely loyal and deeply sensitive...empathic. It's one reaosn why ministry suits/suited me. And these are just a handful of things that get mixed in to that post of What's-Wounded's-Potential-For-Endgame-Healing-MMI/Ceiling etc. I just think it's more possible than not that maybe long term, more acute than not, pain might be...normal? Standard? At very least POSSIBLE?

I was a tad (despite me being blown away by the scope and depth and number of responses to this thread) that no one followed up on Sisoon's assertion that if a WS shows up here in more than average pain (however loosely defined that is) that, by DEFACTO, it means more work needs done. I'm still not sure. I think there is WAYYyyyy too much complexity built in to ALL of this to embrace that for me. But I TOTALLY understand the sentiment. And it still may be true. I think of several who posted in this thread (gmc94 and whatisloveanyway come to mind) that posted in great specifics about all the detailed work they have done. And they are resonating with this concept. The things they articualte in their posts (FOO, personality, depth of attachment, a reluctant trust won over by their husbands that turned into uber-trust/vulnerability etc.) speak the this complexity that I think exists that can, almost single handedly, allow for the reaonsble expectation of long term acute pain...whether R or D.

A knee...a shoulder...a brain. All deeply ( as ALL of our physical systems are) complex things that, if significantly injured, there's an endless list of things that "limit" their recovery or the "cap" at which they CAN recover. Sometimes they do though...fully recover. Sometimes they don't...despite the same work invested. And these physcial things, I think, are a fraction...of the complexity of affair trauma. Should it really be a wonder that, for some, pain just might be deep and lingering...no matter what?

Today I don't think so.

Apologies to all as this is admittedly more than a bit rambly. I'm going with it anyway.

I waited years to express these things here...and I'm going to wring every last drop of juice I can out of it ;-)

WH

[This message edited by Wounded Healer at 6:49 PM, Thursday, March 3rd]

Infidelity is always a dealbreaker. Some people are able to find the precise mix of factors and very difficult path that leads to a successful reconciliation. In many other cases, that precise mix of factors is not present. Or a betrayed spouse is faced with a wayward spouse who, even if they may regret what they have done, does not have the right toolkit to be a successful remorseful spouse and healer. And no amount of counseling is likely to "fix" this deficit. Encouraging a betrayed spouse to "stick it out" in these scenarios likely leads to painful limbo, unnecessary guilt and more trauma. In every case betrayed spouses should feel empowered to embrace the possibility of a positive future without their wayward spouse. Not only is there no shame in this, it is a path which should be celebrated. Because it frees a betrayed spouse from toxic infidelity.

I don't think it's surprising that I wouldn't agree with any of that. Do we all have a right to say we want a divorce when confronted with adultery?... yeah. Does that mean it's a deal-breaker for everyone?.. of course not. Otherwise, none of us would continue in R and none of us would be content and healed within it. And it is NOT the norm here at SI to encourage BS's to stick it out unless that's what they've said they're here to accomplish, and we do typically congratulate people who have made a split when that's what they were trying to accomplish.

I think SI will be better off if we assume there is no default except to consider multiple options. An A is a deal breaker for some in many ways; for others it's not. Some people will be better off if they force themselves to consider R; others will be better off if they force themselves to consider D. Some would be well advised to slow down their decision-making; others, to speed it up. Etc., etc., etc.

I think every member dealing with shame will be better off if they accept that shame, ultimately, is in the mind and body of the person who feels shame.

Every society, and every smaller group within larger societies, has lists of behaviors it considers shameful. No matter what a behavior may be, some small or large group within our larger society will consider it to be shameful. Each of us, therefore, needs to make decisions for ourselves about what we'll do and what we'll accept.

Recovering from infidelity is similar - each of us must find our own path to healing. And the more one takes responsibility for themself and avoids worrying about optics, the more one heals, probably.

I understand, to some extent, the desire for rules for recovering. It would be so nice if we could heal by following a defined protocol of specific actions that would result in a single specific outcome. There's no such protocol. Every default fails for a large population.

Does that mean it's a deal-breaker for everyone?.. of course not. Otherwise, none of us would continue in R and none of us would be content and healed within it.

As it goes to healing or a lack of healing, the deal-breaker concept helped me move myself forward.

Not in the sense that I think everyone needs to threaten divorce to feel empowered or punish their WS.

I simply wasn't able to follow a path to R that made sense until I embraced the idea that my wife did break her promises to me, she broke the marriage, she went outside the marriage instead of turning within the M in a time of her personal crisis. By every definition I understand, it's a literal broken deal -- thus infidelity, for me is the ultimate deal-breaker.

Once I held on to that, I knew if I stayed, I needed a new deal. My wife also appreciated the idea she could buy in on OUR recovery and help me build the new deal (better communications, better boundaries, better empathy, just better....).

I also agree with Sisoon -- we've all seen a whole bunch of different ways people find their way through infidelity or find a way to heal (as much they are able).

I don't think it's surprising that I wouldn't agree with any of that. Do we all have a right to say we want a divorce when confronted with adultery?... yeah. Does that mean it's a deal-breaker for everyone?.. of course not. Otherwise, none of us would continue in R and none of us would be content and healed within it. And it is NOT the norm here at SI to encourage BS's to stick it out unless that's what they've said they're here to accomplish, and we do typically congratulate people who have made a split when that's what they were trying to accomplish.

I dunno, I have seen quite a number of threads where someone will say "I can't go on with this person. I need a divorce" or "I left and they're still love bombing me" and people come in with "your WS needs to go to IC and work on themselves before you consider taking them back" when the BS said nothing about giving that person another chance. It's like sometimes I see the BS take R off the table and read others respond as if it's still on the table. That definitely happens.

I think that's harmful. I think that's a way of saying "are you sure you want to throw this relationship away" when the BS wasn't the one to throw it away in the first place. I don't think it's fair to do to a BS who has decided to or has already left. It's some insinuation that the BS owes the WS a chance, and I know you agree that they don't.

[This message edited by DevastatedDee at 8:58 PM, Thursday, March 3rd]

we've all seen a whole bunch of different ways people find their way through infidelity or find a way to heal (as much they are able).

Oldwounds,

Considering the entire premise of this whole thread...

THANK YOU SO MUCH for that "(as much as they are able)" part!

WH

Wounded Healer,

This point of view has been helpful for me. Your experience as a pastor is intuitively valuable.

Years ago (10+, I don't like to count) my mother died after a long incurable illness. Eventually there were no treatment options. She was bedridden for years and in the end was 80-90 lbs and on oxygen. My siblings, husband, and I cared for her at home. We spent months on and off dedicated to her care. She died while I was overseas traveling with my husband and children. I flew home and handled as much of her arrangements and estate as I could. My husband had to stay overseas due to complications with customs and our boat. The children stayed with him. It was difficult for me to do the necessary work after her death without breaking down in tears over the phone all the time.

When I returned to my family, a friend there asked how I was doing. He was older. His grandchildren were the age of my children. I told him not good and broke down crying, yet again, to my great embarrassment. I felt ashamed and self-indulgent and selfish for my grief. I told him that it was expected for so long, and I didn't know what was wrong with me.

He told me the kindest thing. He said going through the world motherless is a unique profound kind of pain, and it doesn't matter if it's expected or how old you are when it happens. It was helpful. It allowed me to own my suffering. And for me to stop comparing it to others suffering when they lose their mother. I left room for it. I still do around her birthday and the day she died.

The Buddhist monk, Thich Naht Hahn, has many writing on suffering and loss. He says we should make peace with it and welcome it and tell it to come in like an old friend. It's only when you embrace it tenderly with compassion that you can look deeply at its roots. No mud, no lotus. Obviously he has many other teachings of suffering, and of course we should nurture the seeds of happiness.

Still, comparison is the thief of joy. I'm not sure how a BS telling another BS that they should be more healed at some point is any more helpful then a WS telling it to the BS.

Everyone is experiencing their own suffering in this. And their path to healing can be their own.

Oldwounds,

Considering the entire premise of this whole thread...

THANK YOU SO MUCH for that "(as much as they are able)" part!

WH-

I hope you never thought I was suggesting otherwise. There is a chance when I convey my own experience that I don’t appear to leave room for other experiences. I can only share what I know, I’ll not presume to speak for anyone else.

A better way for me to explain may be this:

When I was at my previous, very limited capacity to heal, when I felt — stuck — for lack of better term, everyone in the world gave me their best advice HOW to heal. That advice fell on deaf ears. I wasn’t THERE yet, I wasn’t anywhere close. Both eras of massive emotional pain were recovering from being abused as a child and then the emotional horror trauma of infidelity and took YEARS to find my way out.

And I certainly understand everyone’s level of recovery is individual.

I was just trying to say my path was based was discovering a sense of agency I didn’t know I had.

Scars — emotional and physical scars — is the one part of the physical injury metaphor I think best represents how I understand emotional pain today.

Scars last forever. Some scars are more painful than others. Again, I hope everyone heals as much as they are able.

Infidelity is always a dealbreaker...

I think we agree, and the framing may or may not really matter here. Maybe the wording. I think when we say "For you it might be a dealbreaker" we are saying that there is no option for R regardless of practical improvements. There is no chance to forge a new deal. The actions of the WS are sufficiently against the core values of the BS that they cannot live with the WS as a spouse.

If we get a little more literal, infidelity is breaking the deal. Right, the deal is fidelity. It is forsaking all others. Etc.

From that standpoint, no one would disagree. Also, D is never an "overreaction" in that sense. I basically agree that D should be considered very seriously and in some sense should be seen as the "default/null" option. If the WS wants to build a new M (or if we want to say rebuild, I guess that's ok) and get to R, they damn well better prove it to the BS.

The reality, is that most BS's are shocked, can't accept the loss that has already occurred. Almost all of us experience the stages of grief from betrayal trauma and that includes denial. In this case, denying that the M was unilaterally ended and killed by the WS. And the boilerplate advice is exactly that. The M is dead. You can have a new one if you'd like, but consider your M dead and gone. Hard to do, especially because legally and practically you are still M'd even though the deal has been broken. The ethical tie (and for those of you that believe, the spiritual tie) of the M has been severed.

The "new M" or new deal is different. And in my case is no longer perceived as permanent like it was before. I've mentioned that I find it odd that some BS's go through with vow renewals with their WS. I don't think I would ever do such a thing. In future hypotheticals where I might have previously said, "Well things are bad, but I said in good and bad until death" I'll probably say, "Things are bad and she did cheat on me. I think it's time to peace out." She's proven vows don't matter so much to her, but I still believe in keeping promises. The promise she has from me now is not "I promise to never leave you" it's "I promise to be honest enough with you that if I ask for a divorce, it won't be a surprise".

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 10:44 PM, Thursday, March 3rd]

Are we really going to split hairs at the meaning of "deal-breaker"???
If so, my definition would be needing permanent relief from the cheater, meaning that a BS no longer wants to be legally or domestically bound to that person. I think it's just common sense that when vows or promises of commitment are broken, than the "deal" has been broken. But for our purposes, in the discussion of infidelity and its aftermath, I think a more nuanced definition is in play.

Still, comparison is the thief of joy. I'm not sure how a BS telling another BS that they should be more healed at some point is any more helpful then a WS telling it to the BS.

I agree with this statement but I will say that most of what I see is more - don’t give up on yourself. I think it’s out of compassion for that other person.

If I have learned anything through my experience is our thoughts and beliefs shape everything. If we believe this is as good as it gets then that is the case. If we believe we can keep trying and get to a better place that will likely happen too.

In our physical bodies, we tend to look at alternative treatments. I have watched my husband suffer with things and do exercises, stretches, go to physical therapy, have surgery, injections, etc. and he has in turn finally become mostly pain free. His resilience and dedication to leading a life more in comfort is really noteworthy.

When it came to his emotional well being, he really might should have divorced me early after dday rather than further being subjected to my toxicity. I can’t say but I think that’s true, but he for many other understandable reasons didn’t. But felt understandably hopeless. He didn’t even know where to begin. It’s the hopelessness that sometimes keeps a bs from advocating for themselves and some never regain it.

I simply find that there is advice for hope here. I also know there is a lot of cruddy things that happen in the forum too and when someone is in such deep pain there is no way for them to sort.

The hope should be placed in the individual rather than the outcome but it’s a public forum with people in all stages of healing. This is why we encourage Ic for those struggling, because if this is a bs or ws only form of support what they latch onto at any given time could be helpful or harmful.

I try to share back in the ws forum some ways that it gets better. I am sure for some of them who are early out they think "well good for you, Pollyanna" or skip it altogether because it makes it worse.

But the ones who have been at it for a while are ready to receive that encouragement that things can get better. I don’t think there has been many foggier ws who walked into this forum than me. And like CT said about being a bs I don’t think I am special or an aberration. I just think I kept trying different things to get better. I still do.

So I guess what I am saying is it is there is a period that comparison is a thief of joy. But at some point for others it becomes inspiration. We just have to catch them on the upswing of their hope.

I’m laying here next to my husband who is snoring on the night he just lost his mother, and I took a lot of your other post to heart too. You always give me a lot to think about, HT.

Wounded healer- I am sorry if you felt I was pushing you to make the post more about you but I think where you are a new poster I was looking for insight on the perspective that you wrote from. Your ws may be compliant but asking for a shield allowed her to stay out of her integrity and cruelly kept you in the dark. I think you may need to get more honest with yourself and with her on that aspect because when we can speak our truth we can accept it so we can move on.

While I am sure that it was painful to expose ten years later maybe you will find the wound to be more sterile and prepared now to heal over more. I hope so. I don’t think anyone should live in the type of pain you describe for as long as you have. You deserve peace and I will pray for you to receive it.

[This message edited by hikingout at 7:57 AM, Friday, March 4th]

Wounded Healer,
I totally understand what you mean. I am now 12 years past D-Day. FWH did the work, we are still together, I love him, but the pain has never totally left. It is a chronic pain in it's own nature. I am a different person and honestly, I miss the old me. The old me that trusted, the old me that believed, the old me that gave everyone the benefit of the doubt adn was kind of Polyannish.

I agree things WILL get better, one way or another if effective coping strategies are used, be getting better is not healing. One of our MC gave a great analogy....think of this event as a severe cut with a knife to your hand. If you do not clean the wound, explore the wound it will not heal. If you do not clean, it may close up but it will bust open again to allow the toxin's to drain. If cleaned out, it will heal, but the scar will always remain. The scar will fade over time, but it will never go away. I 100% agree with that analogy.

Thank you all for the thoughtful insights .
Great posts !
My dday#2 was 7 months ago and it still feels like yesterday .
I am with Whatisloveanyway and Grieving . Certain BS personalities carry the pain longer and some can move forward easier and faster .
Whatisloveanyway:

I have come to understand that my attachment style of loving with my whole heart and soul, my core values of loyalty and honesty, the story I had created for my life, the mythology of my perfect marriage and the way my brain works were all the perfect storm for me to struggle so hard with the disappointment, hurt and sorrow from infidelity

Grieving:

I have a personality like whatisloveanyway describes. I had very deep-seeded ideas of what mine and my husband’s relationship was. I didn’t realize until his betrayal how utterly committed and connected I was to him. So committed that I literally never had the smallest thought of straying over a 22 year relationship.

I still have that "how could you " questions about his betrayal .Your posts basically gave me more understanding to why I am still feeling so much pain. It also give me courage to forgive my self, understanding my WH and come to terms with his infidelity . I am still working on healing now.