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It is up to her to make contributions to our marriage, just as it is my obligation to make contributions to our marriage. She knows what I want, the fact she's wiling to give me that doesn't make me a shallow, insecure, one-dimensional misogynist.

How Randian. Is your WW aware that your relationship has become transactional? If so, carry on. I don't think that would be a relationship I'd enjoy (sounds too much like prostitution), but it takes all kinds really.

And no, I wasn't referring to you in particular. This "sexual insecurity" stuff has been going on for a very long time. You're just the latest arrival in a very long debate.

I think this cuts both ways. Women feel entitled to use or not use their husbands bodies the same way. Take out the trash. Not tonight dear. Work harder to make more money. But, end of the day, if you were married in a traditional ceremony, this is, in fact, what you signed up for in marriage. My body is hers, hers is mine. And while that seems stunningly antiquated and out of date, there's something to be said for the wisdom of ages here.

That's a bit of projection, don't you think? And stunningly archaic, like it's 1950 out there.

My WH has never been henpecked. He's never had a honey-do list. He doesn't tolerate being told what to do or when to do it. That doesn't mean he doesn't do any chores. It just means that I treat him (and always have) like he has a BRAIN and can decide for himself what he needs to do and when he needs to do it.

And no... his body is NOT mine. That doesn't mean I don't feel a bit proprietary over it at times, but that doesn't change the truth that it's his body. And my body is NOT his, no matter what sexual demands he might have cared to make on it. Any proprietary feelings he has had in that regard would likewise need correction.

ETA: We are two separate people who choose to live our lives together. The lesson of infidelity to a large degree has been that there has to be respect for that.

[This message edited by ChamomileTea at 12:24 PM, May 1st (Wednesday)]

My H had this. But I had aged (as had he) and he wanted younger and more beautiful. He wanted a Ferrari and he'd decided I was a Chevy. Something he never would have said earlier in our relationship.

I've never recovered from this issue right here. The rest is good but the above may never leave me.

There is a mean and nasty part of me that wishes that every man who did this would die on the spot the moment he decided to trade a human being in for a "newer model". There is no greater insult to a woman's humanity. For it to come from your spouse is...yeah...die on the spot level evil.

How Randian. Is your WW aware that your relationship has become transactional? If so, carry on. I don't think that would be a relationship I'd enjoy (sounds too much like prostitution), but it takes all kinds really.

And no, I wasn't referring to you in particular. This "sexual insecurity" stuff has been going on for a very long time. You're just the latest arrival in a very long debate.

Do partners in a voluntary relationship not have an obligation to make contributions? I think they do. I'll go further: I think a functioning, fulfilling partnership requires constant contributions of the kind that the other partner finds valuable. I don't think it diminishes my wife's status in our relationship to prostitute just because one of my wife's contributions that I find "valuable" is frequent, enthusiastic, and varied sex.

Maybe I'm just in a mood, but one reading of your response could be, "your wife is a whore too stupid to know she's a whore and I was talking about you and all the other pigs here." I'll assume you didn't really mean it that way.

Have a nice day.

[This message edited by DomesticTourist at 12:55 PM, May 1st (Wednesday)]

The problem that men get into when they let their sexual insecurity run amok, is that they end up treating their women like sexual entertainment units. And fuck that noise. I've lived to long to tolerate being treated like a convenient sperm repository.

I have to say I take a bit of issue with this statement. And the reason is because I do advocate that a woman who cheated does need to show that they love their husband. When I say that I don't just mean sexually by any stretch of the imagination, but my statement DOES include sex.

I was a convenient sperm repository for the AP. I say that with great shame because I am actually quite an accomplished woman with a lot to offer to others, stooping to the level that I did was really a huge step backwards.

My husband has been a good man throughout our marriage. I was his equal in every way - from career to intelligence to you name it. When I chose to lower myself to be a convenient sperm repository for another man, that not only emasculated him, it spit on decades of faithfulness, dutifulness, support, and otherwise that I was provided that entire time.

Physical love language is the one that most men speak. He wants to be my sweetheart. He wants to feel like I am putting forth the kind of effort that I once did that made him decide he wanted to spend the rest of his life with me. Since the old marriage is dead, and I killed a special thing...it's up to me to show him that I am worth the gigantic leap of faith he is taking to stay with someone who betrayed him. It's not just an orgasm he is looking for - he is looking for closeness, intimacy. And, sexual connection is a big part of what makes a romantic relationship intimate. I don't feel he is sitting there saying "Great! She cheated on me! I get all the blowjobs I want!". That's not the approach and that seems to be what you are saying in your post.

I was a convenient sperm depository in the Affair. I was used and manipulated, and I did the using and the manipulating. I can tell you with 100% certainty that is not what my marriage is like at all. I think it's insulting to those of us who are trying to do anything and everything to save our marriage to be referred to as that. If you refer to a woman like that - then say it about her affair. That's where it's the truth.

There is nothing wrong with wanting sexual connection in marriage, and I don't feel someone should be shamed for it.

Do you ever get tired of hitting home runs, HikingOut?

Chamomile I believe that was directed at me. You missed my point. I offer than men are a lot more complex than we get credit for in this area.

Sex for sex sake can really be had almost anywhere. What I am saying is that while sex is important it goes way beyond that. Intimacy includes the physical parts, but it is way more emotional than we get credit for. A man will not want sex from him wife if he is not respected.

I don't "contribute" my vagina to "the marriage". I'm not doing some "act of servic"e or fulfilling a want. If I have sex with my husband, it's because I wanted sex with my husband at the same time he wanted sex with me. The story that so many men tell themselves about how women are only giving to get is the REASON they end up feeling insecure and defrauded by marriage. No one is owed sex. God gave us hands and an imagination if we're just out to get our nut. If it's more than that, if it's emotional, spiritual... then why treat it like a commodity, or a "contribution". THAT's the change in attitude which can change the dynamic. IOW, if your fWW isn't a prostitute, don't treat her like one and don't let her treat herself as one. Then, you can be sure your sexual interactions are genuine and coming from a place of authenticity.

I do so love the broad brush that comes out when these sex threads really get going. “The ladyfolk don’t like the sex much - they just need a big strong man to take out the trash!” and “All men just want crazy pornstar humping - all the time - emotions are BAD!” It’s fun because then everyone gets to feel like they’re deficient in some way! Good times!

Chamomile I believe that was directed at me. You missed my point. I offer than men are a lot more complex than we get credit for in this area.

Oh, I agree. I'm just waiting for them to notice it.

ChamomileTea, 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

[This message edited by Darkness Falls at 1:06 PM, May 1st (Wednesday)]

First, I want to say that I really enjoy these types of threads. I appreciate getting insight into how other people think about topics that are hard to discuss IRL.

And, I didn't really mean for this to turn into another sex thread, but that's where it has gone, and that's ok. That's what the men are focused on.

Reliable isn't sexy.

I beg to differ. Watching my man put up curtains, cook dinner, or do the dishes is very sexy. It really turns me on. And, it's not that I think I should have sex with him because he did any of that. I WANT to have sex with that man. I also want to have sex with the man who cries at a funeral or a birth, who tells me he is afraid of failing, who tells me his hopes and dreams, etc. All of that is very sexy.

That leads to a point. It's been said over and over, but it seems lots of people still don't get it. People think differently. The problem is that it's normal to assume that others think like we do. So, if sex is my #1 priority, but my partner appreciates that I clean the house more, I may feel like he doesn't really love ME. The assumption behind that is that my partner values sex as much as I do. That's not necessarily true. We all love others based on what's important to us.

The idea that partners both need to make contributions kind of goes against the idea of love. Can you love unconditionally? That's my goal. Love without any expectation. Could I still love my H if he decided to quit working and just sit on the couch? Yes, I could still love him. Would I want to continue to be married to him? Idk

I'm with CT in that I'm not contributing my vagina to my M. If I have sex with my H, it's because we both want to, not because either one of us feels obligated. His body is not mine, and mine is not his. We were not married in a traditional ceremony. I refused to do that specifically for those reasons.

I contribute to the M by doing the daily running of the household. My H contributes by earning money.

I think anyone, especially a BS wants to feel like they are chosen because they are WANTED, not NEEDED.

It's the same as if my husband stayed with me because he thinks I'm a good housewife, or if I'm the breadwinner, it's the same thing, I would feel like he stayed with me because I'm the "safe" option and that I can provide, be an equal partner. I want to know he stayed with me because he loves me and he truly feels guilty for what he's done and appreciates all of those qualities, but stay with me for love...

I beg to differ. Watching my man put up curtains, cook dinner, or do the dishes is very sexy. It really turns me on.

If it that is what makes you tick I don't fault you for that. In my situation my reliability was taken for granted. I was just the sum of my parts to my W. I wanted and needed to be seen as more if our M was to survive. Just a different perspective.

if I have sex with my H, it's because we both want to, not because either one of us feels obligated. His body is not mine, and mine is not his.

FWIW I don't bring my penis to the M either. Obligation sex is least sexy form of it there is to me. I want to be wanted and so does my W. That is why we work today : )

Husbands chosen for reliability =/= plan B

BUT

Betrayed Husbands chosen for reliability = plan B

That's the key here. Until the H has been betrayed, he might feel bad about not being desired by his wife.

But once the betrayal happens it shows something else. That the WW wants someone else, would have preferred to be with someone else, but since that someone else is not able to provide her needs, she sticks with the sorry ass of the BH. How humiliating is it to be with someone who would prefer to be with someone else, but cannot because that someone else isn't enough for the WW? Is a BH supposed to be glad about that? Glad that he has what his WW needs even though she wished someone else has all that. That's like holding the WW a prisoner, isn't it?

You cannot even make up an excuse that, the WW both WANTS and NEEDS the BH, but only wants the AP. That is not how affairs work. That is the source of the cognitive dissonance aka the fog. Needing someone and wanting someone else are two conflicting positions and to reconcile that, the WW decides she is in love with the AP and loves the BH. Except that she loves what the BH provides.

Reliability is a need. If it was a want, then there shouldn't have been an affair at all. Suppose a WW seeks an AP to provide something that is missing in the marriage (sex, ego kibbles), that her BH cannot provide and at the same time wishes that her BH can provide that but would never want the AP to provide all of what her BH provides(shared memories, unconditional love, exclusivity - these are wants, not needs), then perhaps the BH is a plan A. But is that how an affair works? In an affair, the WW provides and expects the same things that she provides and receives from her BH, from the AP too - of course, the shared memories cannot be generated but unconditional love can be provided (and sometimes received) to (from) the AP. When the WW wishes that the AP provides all of this, but he cannot, it simply means that the WW wanted the AP to replace her BH but the AP cannot. So she sticks with BH. That is opportunism. Not love for BH.

[This message edited by hadji at 3:29 PM, May 1st (Wednesday)]

When the WW wishes that the AP provides all of this, but he cannot, it simply means that the WW wanted the AP to replace her BH but the AP cannot. So she sticks with BH. That is opportunism.

I can see this being either way. Maybe the CW was looking to replace her H. She thought she found that someone in the AP, but discovered he was not all that. She then realizes her BH is the best thing she ever had and goes back to him.

Like someone said (sorry I can't remember who), the only way to know for sure is if th CP proves that it never was love.

I'm not saying that's good, or the BH is lucky, or she should get a pass. CHs do this, too, btw.

I beg to differ. Watching my man put up curtains, cook dinner, or do the dishes is very sexy. It really turns me on.

If it that is what makes you tick I don't fault you for that.

If social media and comments from married female friends means anything, it would seem to be something that turns on a lot of women.

I'm sorry that you were taken for granted. I think we all were.

I will also say I don't "contribute" my vagina. But, I don't think that's what Domestic Tourist really meant - We as women can contribute our energy into our mutually-satisfying sexual relationship. No one is required to provide sex, no. If I don't want to do something I don't. So, in those ways, I agree.

However, I do think that as a WW, you do need to take in things like that post and understand there is in fact damage there. When I read the posts from the BH's in here, I have great empathy for them because I see my H in them.

I get that you want them to "rise up" and say "there is nothing wrong with my sexuality or me" (and you are right there isn't) and "I don't need this void I am perpetuating". And as an individual that's accurate -they do have to heal themselves. I can fuck my husbands brains out day in and day out and it will likely do nothing towards his individual healing.

However In rebuilding the relationship everything is up for re-negotiation. It just is one they are less likely to be as negotiable to go back to infrequent duty sex in the aftermath of learning their wife went completely nympho with another dude.

As Numb and Dumb said, sex could really be gotten anywhere. Most are not out seeking out affairs of their own. They just want their wife to want and desire them. They DO see it as a sign that the woman loves them. Look at any relationship book there is, they all tell you that a man feels love most through sex. We may not like it, but I do believe the experts and the men here can't all be wrong about it.

When you and your husband were dating, you looked at signs he was the one for you. I know I did. Mine took me on a date and we pulled up to an optometrist office. He bought me my first ever pair of eyeglasses that I needed for years but as a young person couldn't get prioritized in my budget. He sent me my first ever delivered flowers. He helped me study for exams. He spent as much time as he could with me. He left me little notes and wrote me beautiful cards. If he cheated on me, I think I would look for some of those efforts to return.

When my husband recalls our dating life it's very different. He remembers going to concerts and movies, and how we could not wait to be all over each other when it was over. That I kissed him passionately, that I was aroused sometimes before he had touched me. He saw those as signs that I really, really was into him. Did he love me? Yes. Did he respect me? Yes. Did we have long conversations? All the time. He enjoyed all those things. But, what stands out to him was that we were so in sync sexually. Like it or not, that was important to him. By me bringing some of that back, he is reminded of those times. And, guess what? I enjoy it now as much as I did then.

I get you are really responding to some of the crass stuff...but I just don't think men are going to talk about it in the terms that we as women talk about it. It doesn't mean there isn't deep and meaningful stuff behind it.

I am a wayward wife, and I am doing all the things being suggested. And, it IS helping my husband and our marriage, not because my husband is a selfish pig who just wants more sex. It's Because we are both making concerted efforts to have a better relationship on many levels - communication, honesty, shared experiences, and sex. I hope the men here are connecting with their wives on all those levels because when the full picture is at play that's when the sex really does flow. So, if there are ones in here that are treating their WW as a prostitute, I have said it because you are going down a one way street to disaster...

This "sexual insecurity" stuff has been going on for a very long time.

This forum is about infidelity. Most of the threads here deal with physical/sexual infidelity. Most of the men here are BH's whose wives had sex with other men. Context matters.

Husbands whose wives cheat sexually with another man often suffer sexual insecurity. If the sex part of the A included a higher level of sexual brio or a wider range of enthusiastically agreed to sexual acts, this humiliation can be amplified. It is difficult for men to overcome this. R is less likely to succeed if the BH cannot overcome this humiliation. A cheating wife who truly wishes to R improves her odds of success if she helps him overcome it. One good way to do this is to stroke her man's sexual ego by being a "GGG" (in the words of Dan Savage) sexual partner.

Hey HO, just now catching up on this thread and am compelled to say sorry if my last post sounded argumentative. Wasn't meant to. Was just clarifying. (as I understand it, in some quarters, its referred to as mansplainin'; I be guilty)

As for this...

I just think at some point in time, that "real life shit" will not outweigh the need to find happiness for one or both of you.

...funny you remembered that, and totally agree. The limbo some of us are in isn't sustainable. And some of us just have to do the "wait and watch" thing to convince ourselves that, yes, our Wayward really does view us as their Plan B based on their behavior. Or Plan A in the unlikely event that we get as lucky as DomesticTourist.

In my case, I have decks to clear before making a decisive move.