SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

What is going on with him?

He’s having a complete meltdown and thinks lying is the answer.

He does want a D (right now) b/c he sees how hard it will be for him. Child support & alimony and doing his own laundry etc is not how he planned to spend his life going forward.

I’m certain if you stopped the D and moved back in w/ him he would wait until he was out of the doghouse and start the shenanigans again.

There is no explaining his behavior except he’s selfish and immature and JUST DOESN’T GET IT.

I can't answer what goes on in a cheater's brain but from what you've written, your WS is a hot mess. It sounds like he has been in a downward spiral for quite some time (his mother's death?). He doesn't seem to have any skill at managing his feelings let alone communicating them. I'd bet right now he feels 20 different things all at the same time.

All that means to you is keep on doing what you're doing. Look out for you and your kids. His emotional shitstorm will only bring chaos and pain to you and your children if you allow him near.

I'm relieved your children are in counseling. I'm going to guess that while the divorce is hard and sad for them, the bigger issue is losing their dad. He is not the man they thought he was either. To make things worse, he is fake and manipulative (so he won't have to see their pain) which in turn makes them (especially your girl) think they have to smile through this hell. It's a real mindfuck especially for children.

I hope your children know that they can always tell the truth to you and that you will always tell the truth to them. Dad has fled to crazy town where he needs to work out his demons and learn some emotional intelligence. The kids can love him and all that but they need to separate themselves from his behavior. Meaning, they can be honest, authentic people who care about Dad but are not responsible in any way shape or form for his happiness. Ergo, they don't have to smile and pretend they are happy for him.

Please remember everything he did and everything he said. He showed you exactly who he is. He was willing to trade down for that woman, and let you figure out your finances while also trying to take care of your children.

She probably dumped him and now his story has made a 180 turn.

I don't believe what he has done (especially because of how it affected the children) is forgivable. If you do decide to take him back please insist on STD checks for both of you, and a post-nup at the very least.

I'm so sorry that he's such a horse's behind. You DO deserve better.

You can’t know for sure, but it is my suspicion that he has begun the reframing campaign. Why not start with you.

If there isn’t any real proof, or even if there is and he’s certain that you will keep his secrets, he can re write history.

The marriage ran its course. He ended the marriage prior to moving into a new relationship

Its so much easier to move you out of his social circle and her into family and friend groups if she’s not a cheating ho bag but simply a supportive friend that turned into more, surprising them both. She doesn’t want to be a promoted side piece and it’s his job to make that happen.

Do not feel sorry for him, see him for who he is and act accordingly.

He needs you to be compliant. To take the high road… for the kids….. and him.

He’s a self involved schemer. It’s an affair, it’s a friendship, it’s an affair, whatever gets him the outcome he wants in that moment. His actions speak louder than words. Integrity and truth mean little in his world.

He’s disengaged. He doesn’t acknowledge, or help with or have empathy for the kid’s trauma, because it is more important for him to feel like the change is minimal than face his kids pain. Never mind engage any effort to help them heal.

He put his hobbies and then affair first when he was married to you. Don’t expect different from him now.

[This message edited by redrock at 12:41 AM, Tuesday, May 21st]

Thank you so much everyone. All these answers make so much sense. So glad I posted this here as I really didn't know what to make of his 'about turn' but more importantly, his disengaged behaviour towards our kids trauma. That's absolutely the right word to use: disengaged.

EVERYTHING you have all said makes me see so much more clearly.

He is selfish and immature. He is an emotional shitstorm. I remember how he never shed a single tear when his mom died of cancer in 2018 and his sister told me last week that when she and her hubby and their kids emigrated to New Zealand last year, she remembered how we were all in tears at the airport but he didn't shed a single tear. So he doesn't express emotions easily.

That he is so disengaged from his kids' pain and hurt is the hardest, most unforgivable thing for me. What you said TheEnd really made me so sad - that they see he is not the man they thought he was. I think that must be so true. It's heartbreaking.

They love their dad deeply but my son has told me how disappointed he is in him. Our daughter is so close to him, but he has shattered her world. I really don't know how to fix all of this. You're so right, they don't have to put on a smile to keep him happy. But how do I navigate this fine & delicate line between how they see their dad and how I see him?

I definitely agree he is seeking to reframe history for his family and friends and is far more loyal to his AP's image than us and our family. I'm under no illusions that she is my 'replacement'.

But I almost immediately told everyone in both our families and our mutual friends exactly what he has done to us. I'm sure he will try to plant seeds that they are just friends but the people who love us are very disturbed by his behaviour. His aunts and uncles all tried to talk to us together to R in the wake of D-Day but he just laughed off their attempts to help.

The funny thing about this man is he told me last week that he has not spoken to anyone about the D. Not family or friends. Must be just him and his AP conspiring in the black void they inhabit.

I know I am the prize and that my kids and I do deserve better. So many people have told me that.

I'm not his Plan B or Z.

Thanks so much again everyone xx

[This message edited by Angie41 at 8:08 PM, Tuesday, May 21st]

You asked the question as to whether the cheater ever has regrets.

Your CH’s behavior is almost exactly my CH’s story. He was turning 50 and We were together since he was 19 turning 20. 25 years of marriage down the drain for a 30 year old single other woman.

Same behavior (lying about affair), same blame game etc.

He also was telling me for 6 months that he was D me but never did anything about it. Why? Because it gave him an excuse to say "I didn’t file for D - she did ." And in his mind that absolved him from being the reason for the D.

Finally on dday2 (because one dday isn’t enough pain and trauma) I’d had enough. I was prepared (just in case) and like you decided I’d had enough.

I told him I was D him. And suddenly he had a change of heart earlier in the day and decided he did NOT want a D.

We did R but it was a very rough first three years. I was convinced I should D him and really struggled. It’s 11 years this year and we are happy and yes, my H has tremendous guilt and regrets about all of it.

He knows it’s a gift I am still with him. He no longer takes me for granted either.

Your H trying to remain your best Buddy is to absolve himself of any guilt. As in " if we are friends then she’s okay with everything and I have nothing to worry about". Wayward cheaters thinking BTW.

Purely selfish behavior. Let him have his midlife crisis and suffer the consequences of his choices.

Now he may NEVER admit to you he made a mistake. He may pretend his life is all good and he’s happy in front of you.

But the cracks will start to show. It may take years but you will see it.

I wanted to share a story about a blogger who had a brother-in-law who divorced his wife of 25 years and married his long time affair partner.

She was his secretary at his big corporate job and was only too happy to become his second wife.

His children(who were in college at the time) tolerated the second wife only because she tried to buy their love and give them money which they were happy to take.

His second wife was very high maintenance. In addition to the plastic surgery, designer, clothes, expensive vacations, expensive vehicles, and all the rest, she was also an alcoholic. She purposely alienated him from his family. And that only further strained his relationship with his children.

The blogger, who was his brother-in-law, would post that the cheating husband would never ever admit he made a mistake. he didn’t want to appear as though he destroyed his family for someone who was nothing more than a selfish other woman.

However, it was very obvious he was unhappy.

You know the old saying, the grass isn’t always greener on the other side of the fence.

True story. Actions of a selfish serial cheater destroyed an entire family.

It's amazing how similar our stories are The1stWife. The lying, blameshifting and now gaslighting. Your CH wanted to divorce you for six months, mine tells me it was years and I was oblivious to what was going on in his head until that cruise from hell.

I can't even imagine how hard and gruelling it was for you to go through 2 D-Days. That is so horrible, you have incredible strength and fortitude and to have rebuilt a happy new marriage together shows that it really does take two.

And to hear that you were so close to D, just like me. I really don't know what other choice there is for me tbh.

Luckily your H came to his senses and realised the gift he had in you and I'm so glad that he appreciates and treasures you every single day and knows how lucky he is to get another chance.

I don't know if mine will wake up and realise what he is losing, maybe not for a long time. Every time that I've brought up marriage counselling etc, he just shoots it down and seems dead set on this D.

I really don't know who this man is anymore and I think he just wants to escape reality.

I can't save my marriage and family by myself and there are few signs anything will change for the better right now. I remember sending him so many articles on how depression/MLC is a trigger for affairs and I don't even think he read them.

I think you're right, let him go have his midlife crisis and deal with the consequences. I do think there will be regrets in the future but they will be his to bear. You can't drop a grenade and then complain about the explosion.

The true story you shared is so sad & devastating. It shows that the grass is really greener where you water it.

I have read this story a million times: https://www.news24.com/you/archive/dont-be-me-and-live-with-regret-a-mans-letter-to-other-men-tempted-to-cheat-20170728-2

Thank you so much xx

[This message edited by Angie41 at 7:04 AM, Wednesday, May 22nd]

I can remember your pain and feel for you. Almost like it was just yesterday.

Watching your husband become a person you don’t recognize is bad enough. But then to be blamed for the marriage "failure" and your spouse’s "unhappiness" just adds another layer of pain.

When my H told me of his affair, he made it out to be like "it’s nothing". Ten days later he told me he wanted a D. He had been unhappy for years. (News to me!). He then told me everything that was wrong with me and it’s my fault he is unhappy.

He even had the audacity to tell me that I never loved him and married him for other reasons. Well I didn’t marry him for his $ because he didn’t have any. He was a broke college student when we met.

I didn’t know about SI all those years ago and made the classic mistake- trying to "fix"things, suggesting marriage counseling, the pick me dance etc.

Only smart thing I did was get a great counselor from dday1 and have an exit strategy just in case. And in dday2 I was executing my exit strategy (sadly).

Your comment about dropping the Grenade and dealing with the fall out is very much spot on. I can remember when my H was begging me to R after dday2 and I would challenge him on every nasty comment he made to me. I would say things like "why do you want to R with me - you claim I’ve never loved you and married you for other reasons".

I’m not the same person I once was. Trauma and betrayal and almost being left in a very very bad financial situation changed a person to their core. Something the cheater just doesn’t get.

My H thought at dday2 it would be "I’m sorry" and things would go back to normal next week.

Your comment about your H not living in reality is spot on too. This midlife crisis thing is real and it’s destroying families for no other reason than selfishness.

I went to the link you posted and read the letter/article.

What strikes me is something my H said during R.

He said he wished someone (a friend, sibling, etc.) would have tried to talk to him and set him straight regarding the mistakes he was making.

I looked at him and asked "would you have listened?"

And he admitted at that time he would not have listened.

It’s like the cheater becomes a toddler. They want what they want and will lie and yell and fight and carry on until they either get what they want or the other party gives in.

The author of the article only had regrets when his relationship w/ the OW ended AND his XW moved on. He was alone. Sadly alone.

Angie,

Have you looked at the Divorce/Separation forum on SI? If not, it may be worth your time. I absolutely do not mean you shouldn't post in G. Rather, I think G + D/S may get you more support than you get from G alone.

You went through so much The1stWife, it's so painful to read what happened to you - all the blame and the unhappiness you never knew of and making it seem like the A is nothing.

I can relate to so, so much of what you wrote - I didn't know what to do in the wake of D Day and still don't know if I'm doing the right thing a few months out.

I'm so grateful there's these amazing resources like SI to help protect us.

I really don't understand what happens in these people's minds that they think they can hurt their partners so casually and so cruelly and downplay this level of emotional and financial abuse.

My H reminds me of a toddler/teenager and even his thinking seems disordered, like he's not on planet earth right now. Maybe this was always part of his character, and I just didn't see the lack of honesty and integrity until now.

To me too, blowing up your life and your family's life during your midlife transition, is the most selfish thing a person can do. If it's your ego that needs changing, do things to grow inside of you, don't destroy your family's world. It's ingratitude.

I can never see my WH in the same way again. He's not the man I thought he was. That's what hurts the most.

All my friends and family have also tried to talk to him, some want to punch him, and like your H admitted in R it may not even make a difference at that point in time.

That letter writer's story is so sad - all so avoidable - and as you say it took years and years and only when his relationship with the OW tanked and his ex wife moved on.

Like you, I am also forever changed. The innocence is gone.

Thank you so much xxx

Thanks so much Sisoon, I will definitely go to the Separation/Divorce forum as that is actually where I am now and makes a lot of sense! xx

I am sorry you are here - the period you are in really sucks....but you can take control over your life - and trust me that WILL feel good at some point, likely sooner than you think. My WH went through the same thing as yours - I love you but not in love with you, blah blah blah.

You asked if these WS believe what they are saying at the time, and in my case about 90% of the time my WH did in fact believe his own bullshit. The issues he pointed to for us were blown out of proportion in his head at the time and he fully relied on that interpretation of events to excuse his behavior. He was big on pointing to things I did as these massive problems which caused him not to do what he did - but caused him to justify doing what he did. I think that is typical behavior.

I don't know if you have selected counsel, but I did see your comments about not being able to afford a long drawn out divorce, which brings me to my personal opinion about the "get a bulldog lawyer" comments. As a lawyer myself, there is what I believe to be a misconception between the TV version of the bulldog lawyer and what a lawyer should do, which is why selecting a lawyer who will represent your interests fairly is what you want - not the attorney who is a notorious asshole like most of the TV "bulldog' lawyers are. In my opinion, selecting a lawyer who is fair, honest, and well regarded by the legal community is one of the most important things you can do - and one that "gets along" with opposing counsel/is known for being cooperative is a fantastic asset. Getting a loud barking lawyer is not usually the best option especially if cost is an issue. Here is why:

When dealing with obnoxious lawyers on the other side of any case of mine, I used to tell my clients that MY hours of work (and in turn their legal fees) were going to be higher than usual - if you have an attorney who will argue any position, the legal fees mount quickly for all parties because of the time it takes to address and respond to the other side. For example, if your lawyer writes a letter to your spouse's attorney or files motions in your case, about something minuscule and/or very unlikely to reap the outcome you seek, they are wasting your money, and your spouse's money as they have to pay their attorney to fight everything. This gets insanely costly, fast, and it breaks down the parties' willingness to be reasonable. While you cannot control the counsel your spouse seeks, you can do so with your own.

IMO what you want in an attorney is threefold: 1) you want counsel who communicates with you; 2) you want counsel who is willing to listen to the facts of your case and is very aware of what it is you WANT from it; and 3) you want counsel who is willing to talk to you realistically about the things you want and to "talk you off the ledge" about things that are unrealistic, or will be very expensive to (possibly) obtain. Item number 3 in my practice was the most important. You do NOT want a "bulldog" attorney who will tell you "they will fight for every single thing you want and will do their damndest to get it all for you" because the phrase that should come after that, but often doesn't is "but I will do that no matter what the cost, and you will pay me for all of it no matter what the outcome is." Those attorneys often are the ones known for being the bulldog - the big bite and the loud bark - the ones who will fight over everything no matter what. Only later does their client find out how much all this bark cost. The attorney you want is one who will take your list of wants and put them into "must haves, would likes, this would be nice but far from necessary" and the best lawyers will consider the things that you feel are on your spouses must haves list and match them to yours. and negotiate with the things you don't really care about but your spouse does and work from there.

It is a rare thing when a client gets everything they want - so the faster you get to a place where you know what you are willing to compromise on, what issues are going to be problematic, and how much obtaining those things will COST, the better. Also be mindful that every time you ask your attorney a question remember you are going to be billed for their time and effort to read it and respond - so the bigger list you have up front the more you can avoid all the time and money additional questions cost you.

Angie, I think you're doing an amazing job of stuffing down this shit sandwich you didn't order in the first place! I recently visited Cape Town so I hope it's ok for me to picture you there, strolling along the water, getting healthier every single day.

I don't think it would be a bad thing to have a chat with your kids. Tell them: look, your dad did X and Y and really hurt me. I know you love him and I'm so happy you have him! But you can't expect me to love him the same way that you do, because he did something very hurtful to me. I will always make sure you have a relationship with him, but what's best for me is to draw a boundary and not spend time with him until my hurt feels better.

They're old enough to understand, and putting it in that perspective may help them understand your actions and behaviors. You absolutely cannot be expected to spend any time around this utterly cruel man who isolated you on a CRUISE in order to tell you he didn't love you. He's out of his fucking mind.

You're doing great. Keep on going. You're going to end up living a happy, healthy, confident life with your wonderful children while he chases everything shiny and molders away seeking happiness over healthiness.

A

I really don't understand what happens in these people's minds that they think they can hurt their partners so casually and so cruelly and downplay this level of emotional and financial abuse.

My H reminds me of a toddler/teenager and even his thinking seems disordered, like he's not on planet earth right now. Maybe this was always part of his character, and I just didn't see the lack of honesty and integrity until now.

To me too, blowing up your life and your family's life during your midlife transition, is the most selfish thing a person can do. If it's your ego that needs changing, do things to grow inside of you, don't destroy your family's world. It's ingratitude.

Angie I am so sorry you are living this nightmare. Many things you are describing are so similar to what my WH did.
Our only difference that made us dodge divorce was that he didn’t confess spontaneously, I spotted a secret chat when his affair was nearly over so we worked on our issues but if I had caught him at the beginning of the affair or after a couple of years, during the apex of their relationship, we would have surely divorced because at that time he was an irresponsible and selfish man who threw all the weight of having a family on my shoulders and disregarded our needs because all that seemed to matter was his work and the running races he was doing with her. He was showing so much stress at home and it was all "due to stress from work". He never mentioned we were a couple with problems until I found out about the affair. Of course she was "a friend" when I found out about the secret chat but I insisted he should stop bullshitting me so eventually he confessed.

I had cracked the code to their secret chat but I only found boring messages, she was telling him she was at home alone (poor darling!!) and that her cat needed to be seen by the vet (my husband hates cats and is very allergic to them). However I found powerful when I read those couple of messages which disappeared after I had read them and she thought my husband had read them and was blanking her (hahaha!)

But eventually he confessed. Initially he tried to blame me for being always negative, for not being a fun partner anymore. I was exhausted as I was working 60 hours per week and under a log of stress plus with health problems, he was travelling abroad (with her a lot!) and I had to clean, cook and look after two children and a dog on my own plus work, so yes. I was unhappy and miserable and felt abandoned (which I was!) .
Then he admitted I had nothing to do with that , he needed a bubbly life, to feel young again and he saw in her a young (8 years younger than me) lady, full of life, always wanting to laugh and drink and do crazy things and he fell for her. But then she divorced and was pushing him to do the same and he did not want to but was unable to let go of her. The more she pushed, the more he felt he had to detach himself from her so we started to bond more. He didn’t travel as much anymore, especially not with her anymore and we started to do lots of things together well before I found out about the affair.

How much selfishness in those years! How many lies and how little responsibilities he attended. Also during the R despite many things that went well, he still had contacts (only in writing) with the ex AP until last year. I only found out not long ago. I was about to go to a lawyer for D.

We talked and he said he had eventually blocked her a few weeks before we talked (I checked and it is true) and does not want to have to do with her anymore, she reminds him of a past he is not proud of and he is sorry for being so selfish for such a long time.

Betrayal is making people become so selfish and so irresponsible, it is like an addiction.

I am sorry you are in the middle of all this. Life goes ahead and some people are simply not meant to be part of your life as they used to be. I hope you find the strength to support your children through this and hopefully your husband will think of them as a piece of himself and not garbage anymore. Bug he will have to do a lot of work to fix the traume in them HE HAS CREATED with his irresponsible and selfish choices.
I am sending you hugs and prayers.

Thank you so much to you all for your messages. I have been away in Morocco for work and it was so wonderful and such an amazing escape from this nightmare. I didn't think about it much there and could even imagine my life truly without this man.

Thank you Thisissolonely for your excellent legal advice - it's helped me get a clearer perspective and understanding of what I need in this process and to ensure that our interests are best represented as far as possible and also to be realistic.

You have outlined things so well for me and how this all works. I do have many questions for the lawyer in drafting this settlement agreement and needed to be reminded that even popping an email to her will cost me money.

I think I am ready to file now. It's been nearly six months since D-Day and no sign of any genuine remorse or R on his part. There truly is nothing to work with and he is still full blown in his A and wanting the D though he has done NOTHING to initiate it in the last six months or to sell the house or anything at all.

WH told me this week he got his latest car repair bill and it was R31 000, which is a lot of money in our currency. While I have really limited contact with him, I wonder why is he telling me this and that he feels 'sick' about this bill.

In my wife mode, I feel bad about filing and hitting him with the summons and settlement agreement etc now as I know he is in a lot of debt. I know I shouldn't care or feel guilty over filing for D now as he doesn't care about my financial mess that he has caused and he has brought on this whole disaster. He is the one who wants the D, allegedly for years, and must know it will come with financial implications.

Why does he not message OW and tell her about his problems as he does it with me all the time? He always is asking how am I, how are things, all this nonsense. And then on the very very rare occasions I see him, he's Mr Nice Guy. And is always fishing information from the kids about me and what am I doing, so there's an element of control there. For the kids sake, and to get a good settlement, I try to be as civil as I can be.

You're so right WorldTraveller 23, I must never forget how utterly cruel he was on that cruise and in the weeks that followed. It's changed how I see him forever - the A I think I could ultimately work through but his cruelty is what I can't forgive and it's killed a lot of my love for him. I have lost all respect for him. I know I was a great wife and that I don't deserve that disrespect and resentment. He is out of his mind. And not the man I thought he was.

Worldtraveler23, your message lifted my spirits so much and made me see a full life for the three of us, hopefully a beautiful one on the beaches of Cape Town - so glad you had a wonderful visit here. I needed your advice to be gentle and honest with my kids about why I feel this way towards their dad. They know how much he has hurt me. And they are hurting too.

Fantastic, I'm so sorry what you went through, our stories are so eerily familiar, but I'm so glad that you made it through this and your H realised and acknowledged the gravity of losing you. Just like me, you didn't know of all these alleged issues in your marriage that he used to justify his A. You're so right - this selfishness and the 'world is all about me and my happiness' is at the root of this infidelity epidemic. No matter how many live you destroy along the way.

Like you say, some people are not meant to be in our lives any longer, and it's so devastating to come to terms that that is the case with my WH. Thank you so much for the hugs and prayers xxx

[This message edited by Angie41 at 1:16 PM, Friday, June 21st]

I'm so sorry that he's done this to you and your family. I know it sucks but you should be very proud of how you are handling it.

I still can't get over the fact that he told you while you were trapped with him on a cruise. How cruel and self-obsessed does someone have to be to think that was a good idea?

Cheaters commonly have a set of lies or excuses that they have made to justify their behavior to themselves. Nobody wants to be the bad guy in their own story. That's where re-writing and blame-shifting comes from. But it's bullshit. They allowed themselves to be thoughtless and selfish and the attention they were getting just felt good. Nothing to do with you at all.

Now he's being forced to recognize some of that BS and realize what he has destroyed and what the consequences of his actions are going to be. He dreamed that you would accept that his happiness was paramount and wish him well in his new love. Your continued friendship would validate his fantasy and he could move on with a clear conscience.

Now that the fantasy has come crashing down, don't be surprised if he starts an effort to negotiate his way out of this.

Stay strong. Wishing you well.

Thanks so much Seeking2Forgive, so appreciate your insights on this. I'm so glad you think I'm handling this well, sometimes I feel so broken and like such a mess.

Everything you say is such a true story in my case, straight from the cheaters handbook. I'm so glad I avoid him like the plague so that I don't have to be manipulated and lied to like that anymore.

That's what I can't get over - the cruelty. I think I could get over the A but the cruelty and disrespect from this selfish, self-centred and self-obsessed person is the most jarring thing for me. He is in a narcissistic frenzy.

While I think he is slowly somewhat coming to the realisation of what he has done with the bomb he has dropped on us (and unknowingly on himself), he remains deadset on the A and D so for me, logically and emotionally, D is the only way forward. There will be consequences for his actions.

I need to cut out this poison, this cancer from my life. xx

I wonder why is he telling me this and that he feels 'sick' about this bill.

In most countries that base their law on common Western law (and I think South Africa does so – based on old UK law) it’s highly possible that the bill is just as much YOUR bill as it is his...
Like... If he didn’t pay this bill and it went to collections the Sheriff/baliff could come knocking at your door and remove your dining-room table, TV and Playstation... even though your husband hasn’t been in the doors for months.

It’s this way to prevent a married couple from having one party take all the costs – buy a car, spend all the money on holidays etc – and then when time comes to pay, the other claims ownership of all assets. It’s part of the "as one" in the marriage agreement.

Your best protection of you and your assets – and therefore the financial health of your family – is to file. Once that’s formalized there is an automatic separation of responsibilities and accountability for any cost he incurs.