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So, there was another conversation had over breakfast about a week or so ago and it has me baffled and unsure. Could use your help again.

We were at Waffle House (the food is great), and there was a couple sitting close to us with twin girls. For some reason, this got him talking about himself and his childhood. Telling me about how his family was never really close. That they existed in the same household, but lived mostly separate lives. Even when eating together at the same table, no real conversation was ever had. That he couldn't remember a single instance where he had a deep and meaningful conversation with his mother, sister, etc. (His bio father was an alcoholic and his mother divorced him when he was very young and his step father was not a good man either)

Anyhow, that got him to speculate about his own relationship with his kids and why it was the way it was. Understandable of course. However, what he said next made my jaw drop. He said that he knew his relationship with them wasn't deep but that he didn't CARE! Not that he didn't care about them, but that he didn't care that his relationship with them was shallow. That if he did anything to try and make it better it would only be because he was forced to (by me or them). I can't even fathom feeling this way!

Later he asked me if I understood or had he just confused me more. I said that I understood what he meant, but that the idea was confusing. Especially since his assertion was that every relationship was that way for him. He just didn't care. I asked him if HE understood what that would ultimately mean for him. He said yes, that he would be alone, that he would probably be one of those people that would be found dead a year later because nobody cared enough to check on him. But most disturbing was that he said he was fine with that!

I then asked him about his relationship with me and why it was so important if he felt that way about everyone else. He said he couldn't explain it, but that he didn't see a future without me, that he loved me and wanted to be close to me. IDK how to feel at this point! Is he, like some of you have said, only working on his relationship with me because he doesn't want to lose what I do for him? Does he really care about me? Is he so selfish that he doesn't have the bandwidth to work on himself and become a better partner for me AND his children?

My brain just can't comprehend this information. He DOESN'T CARE!

My best guess: his relationship with you is important to him because it benefits him in some way. It’s useful to him. You provide him with much that he needs, physically, emotionally, and maybe even materially.

Children, even older ones, take more than they give… and your husband simply doesn’t have the emotional bandwidth to cultivate a relationship in which he isn’t the primary benefactor.

When you consider how easily he discarded his OC, it makes sense. That child was all inconvenience and zero benefit; hence, OC was very easy for him to simply abandon.

I suspect that he when he’s a very old man and needs help and care— particularly if you die before he does— he will wish he had a better relationship with his kids. But by then it will be too late.

Oof. I was really alarmed when I first read your post. I thought that maybe he's a sociopath or something, and then I read your story on your profile. He probably has a personality disorder of some sort and he's definitely an emotional nitwit. Like 0 on the emotional IQ scale. Just leave him alone, let him do what he wants, let him exist on the fringes -- and he'll be happy.

I bet he uses you as a sort of life sherpa. You do normal life stuff and he gets to tag along and experience it at whatever level he wants to.

BluerThanBlue

My best guess: his relationship with you is important to him because it benefits him in some way. It’s useful to him. You provide him with much that he needs, physically, emotionally, and maybe even materially.

Children, even older ones, take more than they give… and your husband simply doesn’t have the emotional bandwidth to cultivate a relationship in which he isn’t the primary benefactor.

I'm going to agree with this wholeheartedly. It seems as if what he gets from me is enough to make him want to make an effort to keep me, but what he gets from the kids is not. Still, it's mindboggling because I can't comprehend feeling like that. I suppose it goes back to his selfishness? It's all about him?

SacredSoulSister

He probably has a personality disorder of some sort and he's definitely an emotional nitwit.

This made me laugh and I needed it. "an emotional nitwit", can't argue with that!

I bet he uses you as a sort of life sherpa. You do normal life stuff and he gets to tag along and experience it at whatever level he wants to.

This seems pretty accurate as well. Yet, sometimes he shows regret at not having more, but is unwilling to do anything about it. Someone suggested he might have depression, and WH has also sometimes stated he thinks he might, but yet again, he does nothing about it. I suggested more IC to delve into that, but he just shrugged it off. So, not my problem. He knows what he has to do to change things and still refuses to do so. Since, as you said, "let him exist on the fringes -- and he'll be happy", that is exactly what I will do. I will continue to work on me and my happiness and if he follows, so be it. I cannot shoulder his relationships with our children. I'm sure at some point he will once more lament that I don't share everything they share with me with him and I will remind him that he "doesn't care".

All evidence indicates he has some type of personality disorder and only cares about what he gets or deserves from people, as everyone with a personality disorder feels. Yes, he may "care" about you...unless you count that he's already cheated on you. I would argue that he only cares about himself and that you will never be safe with him, especially since he could decide at any time that he no longer needs what you offer. I am so disturbed by how he doesn't care about your kids. I think that should offend you more than it does. I could never, ever love a man who doesn't love his own kids.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 3:35 AM, Friday, July 7th]

Since, as you said, "let him exist on the fringes -- and he'll be happy", that is exactly what I will do. I will continue to work on me and my happiness and if he follows, so be it.

That was a derisive observation, not a suggestion. Do you want to be Eeyore's sherpa? Do you want him tagging along with you, not participating, not working to be a better partner to you? That sounds like a drag.

Are you staying with him for financial reasons?

As a thought, to push a slightly different direction, who is to say that a large portion of the issue isn't those pesky FOO issues and those patterns of interaction that we learn as a child? At this point, That distance and separation from childhood carried through to adulthood and probably got reinforced in the military. Seriously, that kind of emotional detachment for an entire family just sounds cold and lonely. You could be speaking a foreign language... emotionese!

Additionally, your husband sounds more self absorbed than selfish to me. I bet most of this does not even cross his mind and is all built on that desert wasteland of a childhood. I find it amazing, the things that stick with us and define our patterns of interacting from childhood.

OwningItNow

All evidence indicates he has some type of personality disorder and only cares about what he gets or deserves from people, as everyone with a personality disorder feels. Yes, he may "care" about you...unless you count that he's already cheated on you. I would argue that he only cares about himself and that you will never be safe with him, especially since he could decide at any time that he no longer needs what you offer. I am so disturbed by how he doesn't care about your kids. I think that should offend you more than it does. I could never, ever love a man who doesn't love his own kids.

Obviously there is something missing in him and I don't think at this point, that he is willing to really go there and find it. I'm sure much of it is FOO issues and some is personality. If he refuses to dig into it in IC there isn't anything I can do about it. I'm not a therapist. As far as feeling safe, well, we all know that's an illusion and things can upend at any time. I feel that if anything like that happens (he cheats again or kicks me out etc.) I will be OK. I am here because I want to be, not because I have to be.

As for "I could never, ever love a man who doesn't love his own kids", well, I never said he didn't love his kids. In fact, I believe I said that he cares about them, just that he doesn't "care" about the relationship. As in, he's fine with it being the way it is and doesn't want to work on making it better. As this site often states, pay attention to their actions, not their words. His actions clearly show he cares for all his children. Do I wish his relationships were better and deeper? Yes, but, I can't force him to do the work to get there.

SacredSoulSister

Since, as you said, "let him exist on the fringes -- and he'll be happy", that is exactly what I will do. I will continue to work on me and my happiness and if he follows, so be it.

That was a derisive observation, not a suggestion. tongue Do you want to be Eeyore's sherpa? Do you want him tagging along with you, not participating, not working to be a better partner to you? That sounds like a drag.

Are you staying with him for financial reasons?

I had meant in regards to his relationship with our children. He has done a lot of work on his relationship with me and becoming a better partner. I wondered if because he has been trying so hard to change his selfish behavior and become a true partner to me, that maybe he didn't have enough bandwidth to do the same with the children. I know it isn't easy to change a behavior you've had for your entire life. At this point, over 30 years of marriage. You have to change something that is in your core. IDK, maybe I'm just overthinking things.

And as stated above, I'm staying so far because I want to be here, not because I have to be here.

veryconfused

Additionally, your husband sounds more self absorbed than selfish to me. I bet most of this does not even cross his mind and is all built on that desert wasteland of a childhood. I find it amazing, the things that stick with us and define our patterns of interacting from childhood.

I had to quote this because yes, so many things just do not cross his mind at all! It isn't that he doesn't intellectually understand, it's that the thought never enters his mind. So in that regard I believe you are right, he is more self absorbed than selfish, though I believe he is both

In order to unpack that, he would have to absolutely dig into his FOO issues. I get the sense his mother is the same way though. She obviously cares about her children, but there isn't a deep relationship with either. There isn't a real relationship between her and our kids either. As a grandmother, I can't imagine not fostering that relationship no matter how far they are.

Anyway, this seems like something that is alien to me and I'm still not sure how to move forward. I will keep doing what I'm doing and hope he realizes what he's missing. But, I won't hold my breath either.

And as stated above, I'm staying so far because I want to be here, not because I have to be here.

I'm sorry that I missed that, and I'm glad you're there because you want to be.

I had to quote this because yes, so many things just do not cross his mind at all! It isn't that he doesn't intellectually understand, it's that the thought never enters his mind.

My H and I are working on this very thing right now. He says that I have a 36-step thought process and his is about 3 steps. And he has definite FOO issues.

Here's my thread, if you're interested: https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums/?tid=661119&HL=83038

Our stories are similar. Married young to a military man; Desert Storm; multiple affairs; still married after 30+ years. My H is a big ol' intuitive feeler, though.

Fournlau.

We are not responsible for how our spouse reacts to things, how they conduct their life, their role in their relationships, and it’s not our job to fix them. We can’t really affect someone’s me mentality in any lasting way if they are not ready to work on debugging their own programming.

As a ws, I can recognize your husbands issue, and that is self love is the source in which all other love can flow. He doesn’t have that. If you look at most any ws, we often have no strong relationship with anyone. We are takers, we need to get a lot of assurance, we are avoidant, and all that stems from inherent feelings of worthlessness. He filters how the children or you see him through the way he sees himself.

I also think my husband relies a lot on "they are my kids I am their dad, we love each other"

I stopped trying to fix it for all of them, mostly because I now have adults who have their own families. He loves them all but wouldn’t know anything that goes on, or see pictures of his own grandchildren if I didn’t show it to him or relay it to him. Keep in mind the older kids are my stepchildren, and I am mostly the one they call or reach out to. So I am with you it’s intentional and requires a fair amount of work.

I have come to understand that I share a romantic relationship and partnership with him, but we are on our own life journeys that we are each responsible for. I can’t do the work for him, he can’t do it for me. I will offer advice if I am asked, but otherwise, I find my time is better spent focusing on what I can control.

I know it worries you in multiple levels, and why, but they will all figure it out in time.

[This message edited by hikingout at 4:14 AM, Sunday, July 9th]

As this site often states, pay attention to their actions, not their words. His actions clearly show he cares for all his children.

I find this confusing. Your first post has a whole list of actions showing he did not deeply care for his children. Sure, may want them safe and alive but like you said- superficial. Choosing NOT to go to their activities and take interest in who they are as people is an action too. He cares for them to the extent he is required to by social standards. Even he knows how bad it would look if he didn't even care if they were safe and cared for which is easily done monetarily. But his actions show that it doesn't go any deeper than that. His kids could be anyone and it sounds like he'd still show this level of care instead of having individual, personalized relationships with each like good parents do.

It's fine if you want to stay married to him. Me personally, I could never love a man who didn't have a deep connection with his children and took interest in them as people outside of extensions of himself. IMO, that is too big a character flaw for me to trust he could love anyone but himself. I think he's a risk if he's not willing to explore why that is but time will tell.

SacredSoul33

I appreciate your voice and perspective. Thank you. The military was perfect for my WH because of the way he thinks. He likes to have clear parameters and thrives on repetition. Chaos is anathema to him and sadly, I am more on the chaotic side. Opposites attract right? LOL As I'm sure you know, this caused a lot of conflict and much of the resentment that built up between us. Things are better now, because we actually talk about things instead of letting them fester. That was a "both" situation.

hikingout

As a ws, I can recognize your husbands issue, and that is self love is the source in which all other love can flow. He doesn’t have that. If you look at most any ws, we often have no strong relationship with anyone. We are takers, we need to get a lot of assurance, we are avoidant, and all that stems from inherent feelings of worthlessness. He filters how the children or you see him through the way he sees himself.

This rings true, although I don't think that he sees himself this well. Or perhaps a better way to say it is that he doesn't UNDERSTAND himself that well. His worth is measured (to himself) in what he can DO for the family (financially). One example is his view that taking us out to eat was showing love and care because he was proud that he was able to afford to do that, whereas for us, it was just "going out to eat". We were unaware that it was so significant for him.

I also think my husband relies a lot on "they are my kids I am their dad, we love each other"

I stopped trying to fix it for all of them, mostly because I now have adults who have their own families. He loves them all but wouldn’t know anything that goes on, or see pictures of his own grandchildren if I didn’t show it to him or relay it to him. Keep in mind the older kids are my stepchildren, and I am mostly the one they call or reach out to. So I am with you it’s intentional and requires a fair amount of work.

Again, extremely relatable! If I don't tell him what's going on in their lives, he doesn't know about it. For me, I can't imagine not trying to stay in touch with my kids! To try and KNOW about their lives (without being intrusive of course). My parents weren't pro-active on staying in touch with me either and while my mother NOW contacts me on a fairly regular basis, I believe it's more for selfish reasons, since my father passed and she is lonelier rn. Not that I blame her of course, and I do try and stay in touch myself.

I have come to understand that I share a romantic relationship and partnership with him, but we are on our own life journeys that we are each responsible for. I can’t do the work for him, he can’t do it for me. I will offer advice if I am asked, but otherwise, I find my time is better spent focusing on what I can control.

I know it worries you in multiple levels, and why, but they will all figure it out in time.

This is actually good to hear because sometimes I feel bad at the superficial relationship. But, as you said, I am not responsible for their relationships. It's sad really, because when I asked two of my kids if they would like a better relationship they said yes, if only to not have it feel awkward when they were alone

I appreciate your response and thank you for your insights. They help.

nekonamida

Your post is the one that made me take so long to respond again. Like hikingout said about her WH, the fact that my WH loves our children is not questionable. I'm sure you know many fathers who love their children but know nothing about them. Unfortunately, many fathers are this way. Suffice it to say that I KNOW he loves them and I have ZERO doubts about it. I'm not sure I could say anything that is going to prove it to you though.

Also, and I debated on whether or not to say this but:

Me personally, I could never love a man who didn't have a deep connection with his children and took interest in them as people outside of extensions of himself. IMO, that is too big a character flaw for me to trust he could love anyone but himself. I think he's a risk if he's not willing to explore why that is but time will tell.

This feels very judgmental. Again, many men (no not all) don't have a deep connection with their children. If that is a dealbreaker for you then I understand, but it isn't for me and many other women. I have more to say but I think it's best to drop it for now. I'm not in the best headspace

Fournlau, my mother took me shopping all the time, dressed me up like a Barbie. I felt so spoiled. She called me in college every day to ask about boys I'd met, as if my life mattered to her. Then I graduated and she went back to being the disengaged, disconnected, absent parent that she was prior to college, as most narcissists eventually do. No, my mother did not love me. Unless you count "in her own way," which I do not. Her way was painful 95% of the time.

You cannot hit someone and then tell them that you love them and expect them to believe you.

And you cannot buy someone dinner but never ask them about themselves or make time for them and expect them to feel loved.

All we have to go on here is the stuff you have shared about your WH, and it's not very good. Even now, after he supposedly gets it, you write about his selfishness, victim mentality, defensiveness, checking out other women, demeaning your value and staying with you to just keep his own life smooth. Along with not having nor desiring any supportive interactions with the kids. (I had to check posts to see if I got it all.) That's a pretty brutal list of negatives. Sometimes it seems you start your threads speaking honestly and negatively about him, and as the criticisms heat up, you start defending him. But why? YOU are the one bringing this stuff up, and we're angry too. We are trying to help.

I can only speak to my own experience. I used to do this when I was in a bad/abusive relationship but was terrified to leave. The cycle was this: my pain in the relationship would build (6 weeks or so) as he did things, said things, broke promises, disrespected me or whatever, so then I'd be looking to get the pain out. I'd be thinking, "I can't take this!" I'd confide in some friends and family--complain and vent, and I'd get the difficult feedback of, "You can't change him, so leave him. He's horrible." Sometimes I'd start defending him and backing off my complaints, and sometimes I'd actually leave. But the abandonment wound hurt like hell ("why doesn't he love me like I love him?") and I'd accept his lame apologies and return. Then I'd make more excuses for him. "He's agreed to work on that" or "That problem is actually not that bad anymore." The pain and fear of losing the relationship kept me in the torturous cycle.

I look at your threads, and they all feel like this. I hope you will consider that his problems are not resolved until HE fixes all the things he is doing or did do, is or is not, that you wrote in post #1. Because that woman was in pain and worry. And none of that has been solved just because you don't like the direction of the advice. (Is there a solution? Idk. Acceptance? Divorce?)

First post:

he said that he felt that if he disappeared nobody would notice. That he felt that he was nothing but a bank for all of us.

Last post:

One example is his view that taking us out to eat was showing love and care because he was proud that he was able to afford to do that, whereas for us, it was just "going out to eat". We were unaware that it was so significant for him.

Significant to him????? No, no, no. He complained he was only a bank. He has said stuff like this many times before. Please do not rewrite this. He does not feel good about his financial obligations and often uses it against you. "I provide, so you need to do everything else." That is no gift!

First post:

Each of them at some point in their childhood stopped asking him to come to their activities because they knew he would make excuses as to why he couldn't come. They all knew that there was no point in asking him to do anything that he didn't want to do.

Last post:

the fact that my WH loves our children is not questionable

Then what are we talking about here? If treating people badly IS love, then this website wouldn't even exist. He says he loves them, yes. And I doubt he hates them. But he does not show them in any meaningful way--time, attention, interest, energy, sacrifice--that he loves them. And actions, or lack of them, speak volumes.

when I asked two of my kids if they would like a better relationship they said yes, if only to not have it feel awkward when they were alone

Why did you ask them this? You are NOT in control of what you are dangling in front of them but are acting as if you are. It's like asking a starving man if he would love a tender, grilled chicken breast--but you don't have one. Unnecessary torture. Your WH told you three posts up this page that he was fine living alone!!!! Please don't do this to your kids. Stay out of it. Every time you try to fix it, his failure at stepping up and loving them in the way you set up will just stab them all over again. They know if it's you orchestrating the effort or him.

My mom always neglected us, so my dad raised us. They were married, yes, but he was mom and dad. Watched tv with us, read us books before bed every night, went on walks with us, made our lunches just the way we liked them. He was Superman. And when I got older and realized that my mom really didn't love me or parent me even though she was mom, and when I supported myself against a lifetime of gaslighting by my family, I had to learn how to manage my mother. And then I became very, very angry at my father. Why him? Because he stayed with this woman and let her neglect me. He didn't stop her or divorce her. I'm over that anger now, but it lasted a long time. I don't see him as Superman anymore. I see him as a good but very weak person. I think that is accurate.

I know you are in IC and working on this, so kudos. But I am living the damage. Pushing this false narrative that your WH is full of love for you and the kids while posting that you've realized he's with you because it benefits him is NOT healthy.

You are not responsible for him. But you are responsible for being with him. I hope he deserves it.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 11:25 PM, Monday, July 24th]

I had one other thought on why he whines about nobody paying attention to him but won't put any effort in. The thought was,  "My god, every narcissist boyfriend I had (3) did the same thing."

Your WH doesn't want to spend time with the kids or know them. He wants to be worshipped and celebrated; that's the kind of relationship he feels is being "kept" from him, as all very narcissistic people feel. He just knows enough not to phrase it that way. And no, people like this never, ever learn--or care to learn--to invest more in others to get more from others because they can't learn this as they have no empathy. The kids having feelings of their own does not matter to your WS, maybe isn't even real to him. So he spends all of his time thinking about his own feelings, and he would like to be treated more like a hero for any and every little thing he does. That's what he wants when he IS with people--otherwise, he's fine alone, as he said. All my exes were this way. They wanted people to make them feel good or disappear--nothing in between.

Your WH is not looking for or wanting a relationship with the kids, just adoration and worship. One is healthy and one is toxic.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 7:24 AM, Tuesday, July 25th]

This rings true, although I don't think that he sees himself this well. Or perhaps a better way to say it is that he doesn't UNDERSTAND himself that well. His worth is measured (to himself) in what he can DO for the family (financially). One example is his view that taking us out to eat was showing love and care because he was proud that he was able to afford to do that, whereas for us, it was just "going out to eat". We were unaware that it was so significant for him.

Yes, I was largely unaware of it most of my life too. And, I based my worth on how well I took care of my family as well. Mine was larger scale, not just in providing but also by overdoing for everyone like a servant.

That is a self love thing. I am not worthy so I must keep earning their love through these outside things that aren’t as valuable as true connection.

My FOO never had deep conversations about anything.

My father’s concept of a loving relationship consists of "I am your father, therefore I love you. You are my daughter, therefore you have to love me, it’s how the rules work." He may have the idea that being the provider, being the disciplinarian, being the head of household, etc., is what "love" is and what constitutes his caring and the foundation of his relationship with his kids. That may be what his models have been, and while he may want more than that, he just may not have a "how-to" manual in his head on how to go about it, or what, exactly, he might be looking for in terms of a deeper connection with his kids.

There wasn’t, and still isn’t, a love language that my father might be able to elucidate beyond the fact that the parentage relationship exists. That he provided for us. He did not attend a single school event until my high school graduation. On top of that, the family LEFT ME THERE and went home without me. I ended up walking home and hitchhiking a ride on the road home. An older couple picked me up and drove me home, I was crying. Seriously.

Things like that just solidify the lessons taught in childhood. Your husband may have had similar experiences where he was distanced from his family in a very real sense.

My husband was raised in a family that also did not attend school things. I don’t know where all that came from, but I really worked hard to get him to do attend school events with our kids. I wanted that cycle broken.

Anyway, the FOO influence is hard to overcome.

Another factor here may be how your husband feels about himself, and how he thinks others perceive him. When you’re raised in that type of FOO, the message is that other people really don’t want a lot to do with you. That you’re pretty much bothersome, and over time that sense that you’re better off staying a distance away from other people becomes ingrained. You lose the ability to truly believe that other people want to be friends with you, or want to spend time with you, or care to know your thoughts or ideas. You come to accept that you’re in this alone, even when you fall in love, even when you have a significant other, even when you have kids. It is hard to understand this mindset if you’re not raised this way, and even harder to let go of it if you were. I have struggled many times over the years, fighting to overcome this mindset.

It’s hard to accept a compliment, hard to trust people, hard to make friends, hard to attend social occasions. It has been difficult to break out of the chains of that FOO, for sure. IC can help, and they really need to drill down on it.

Sending peace to him. He just sounds like someone I know.

Sorry for taking so long to reply, I'm a career procrastinator.

OwningItNow

All we have to go on here is the stuff you have shared about your WH, and it's not very good. Even now, after he supposedly gets it, you write about his selfishness, victim mentality, defensiveness, checking out other women, demeaning your value and staying with you to just keep his own life smooth. Along with not having nor desiring any supportive interactions with the kids. (I had to check posts to see if I got it all.) That's a pretty brutal list of negatives. Sometimes it seems you start your threads speaking honestly and negatively about him, and as the criticisms heat up, you start defending him. But why? YOU are the one bringing this stuff up, and we're angry too. We are trying to help.

All true, well mostly. As I've stated, there HAVE been some changes, at least in regards to our relationship. Yes, his automatic response is selfishness, but he can now recognize those and pivot. Obviously not 100% of the time, and there are instances where he doesn't think he is being selfish, those times we need to talk about it in a way that he can see my POV and that is still difficult for him (as most WS's his empathy is rather low). He does still get defensive and again *sigh* we have to go through a deep conversation before that drops. I do believe that he still thinks what he does (making money) is worth more than what I do and at this point, not sure he'll ever see how wrong that is. That is not to say that he has not acknowledged that what I do/have done is not important, especially in regards to the children. We have had the conversation about taking each other for granted and trying to not do that anymore (work in progress). As for "staying with you to just keep his own life smooth", that is something I feel might be high on his priority list, but not something that he has specifically said or implied. I have stated that he does not have a deep relationship with the children, not that he doesn't have ANY relationship with the children.

We make it a point to have one family night a week, usually playing D&D, boardgames, or watching a movie. During these activities we are all engaged (unless someone is nose deep in their phone, which I admit I am guilty of as well). Most of the discussions at these times are relegated to similar interests. All of my children have his sense of humor (very scathing and sarcastic), so they engage in that (w/out me, as though I can be sarcastic, I don't have the wit needed, or the speed of thought). He engages with them during the week, but like I said, mostly on things that they have in common (video games mostly). He knows some details about them, some likes/dislikes, honestly, things you would know about your friends type of things. What I wish is that he had a deeper connection so that he could have and give them wonderful memories. For example, a couple weeks ago me, my youngest daughter and oldest son sat around the kitchen table, drank, and played a boardgame. It got super funny after a few drinks. Then, we sang to 80's songs at the top of our lungs. This is something my WH would never do (he's not much of a drinker but you get my point). And it isn't about the activity, it's about making those memories. Before anyone asks, he wasn't home, he works overnight and leaves around 8:30pm. It just makes me sad that he won't have these memories, that's all.

I don't mean to defend him in the sense that "oh nevermind he's actually great". Obviously there are issues and I wish things were better. In this thread, I wanted help in opening the discussion because I knew it was going to be a sensitive subject. Except that apparently, he is happy with the status quo so there doesn't seem to be a reason to even contemplate it anymore. At least on my end.

First post:

he said that he felt that if he disappeared nobody would notice. That he felt that he was nothing but a bank for all of us.

Last post:

One example is his view that taking us out to eat was showing love and care because he was proud that he was able to afford to do that, whereas for us, it was just "going out to eat". We were unaware that it was so significant for him.

Significant to him????? No, no, no. He complained he was only a bank. He has said stuff like this many times before. Please do not rewrite this. He does not feel good about his financial obligations and often uses it against you. "I provide, so you need to do everything else." That is no gift!

All true, but that doesn't change the fact that that is how he views his responsibility to the family. It's a skewed view for sure, and one that I have lived with our entire M. I felt, since I was mostly a SAHM, that it WAS my responsibility to do everything else! I am still learning as well and now understand that it was never equitable labor! This is something that I am still working on myself so I don't think I have the tools to tackle it with him yet. I'm reading Emotional Labor and it has been an eye opener. You are absolutely right that there has been a lot of rinse and repeat in my M and for a long time I thought it was a ME problem.

It was thanks to this site that I also learned about DARVO and that that is what I had been dealing with well before the A. We are still working through that in MC. He has admitted that what he did was wrong and that it was because he didn't like feeling like the bad guy whenever I brought up something that he had done/said that hurt me. At this point, he will stop himself and ask if he is doing it again. So, at least at this point, he recognizes when he falls back into that dynamic.

Is all of this enough? Is that enough of a change? That he recognizes when he is being selfish, when he is trying to dodge those shameful feelings? Is it enough that he is working on himself in that regard? Well, time will tell I guess. I know that he is not perfect, and I know that he still does shitty things, but I guess I'm holding on to the hopium because he is moving in the right direction and there are significant changes that he has never even considered before. Does that make it wrong for me to stay?

Then what are we talking about here? If treating people badly IS love, then this website wouldn't even exist.

I would agree that it hurts when your parents don't take an interest in your activities. I know that I felt that way when my parents didn't go to my games for whatever reason, or any other activity. But I never felt like they didn't love me. I do still stand by my statement that WH loves our kids, but I will say that I think it's like everything else in his life, he just loves himself more. Or, cares about himself more.

Why did you ask them this? You are NOT in control of what you are dangling in front of them but are acting as if you are. It's like asking a starving man if he would love a tender, grilled chicken breast--but you don't have one. Unnecessary torture. Your WH told you three posts up this page that he was fine living alone!!!! Please don't do this to your kids. Stay out of it. Every time you try to fix it, his failure at stepping up and loving them in the way you set up will just stab them all over again. They know if it's you orchestrating the effort or him.

I asked them because we have those kinds of discussions often. They are very open with me about how they feel about their father, and I don't feel as if I was "dangling" anything in front of them. Their response was pretty much the same as WH, "meh". Yeah, they wouldn't mind a better relationship if only so things wouldn't seem so awkward with him sometimes. But they also seemed OK with the status quo as well. The only one that seems to maybe become proactive about it is my oldest son. He has spoken to me before about how he wants to speak to his father about past issues. I will not interfere unless he specifically asks me to. As an aside, and no I didn't ask them, they have all at one time or another told me they know their father loves them, but, take that as you will. Maybe you feel that that is only wishful thinking. My oldest daughter was very honest about how she felt, she knows she doesn't have a relationship with her father like she does with me. She doesn't feel the loss, and I guess that's because she grew up that way. And again, she has also expressed that she loves him and that she knows he loves her.

So where does that leave me? Nowhere I guess, at least in regards to their relationships with each other.

hikingout

That is a self love thing. I am not worthy so I must keep earning their love through these outside things that aren’t as valuable as true connection.

This is worth exploring. Well, for him at least. It's very interesting because, as I said above, it seems as though he loves himself more than others, yet, if what you say is true, then that selfishness does not come out of self-love, but perhaps self-hate? Maybe that's simplifying it too much. Could you expand on this?

5Decades

My father’s concept of a loving relationship consists of "I am your father, therefore I love you. You are my daughter, therefore you have to love me, it’s how the rules work." He may have the idea that being the provider, being the disciplinarian, being the head of household, etc., is what "love" is and what constitutes his caring and the foundation of his relationship with his kids. That may be what his models have been, and while he may want more than that, he just may not have a "how-to" manual in his head on how to go about it, or what, exactly, he might be looking for in terms of a deeper connection with his kids.

I strongly believe FOO has a lot to do with WH's parenting. His family was not affectionate or engaged. As long as he passed and didn't get in trouble, all was good. His father was an alcoholic and his parents divorced when he was around 3 I believe. He never saw his father again. Then his mother married another man, who was never a good father figure. He was also a cheater and they divorced as well, but not until after WH was out of the house. So, sadly, not very good role models. I, on the other hand, witnessed my parents be very affectionate with each other. There were other issues there, but, that wasn't one of them. There is a lot more there that I think he needs to dig out, but, that is up to him. He continues to work on himself with regards to our relationship, though it seems so slow!

Anyway, I don't want to seem as if I think he's great and perfect. I know it's a long road and at the end, he might never get where I need him to be. I am open to that option. Yes, I still have a lot of complaints but as long as I see forward movement, I'm willing to stay. And for those that absolutely think he doesn't love his kids, IDK, maybe you're right, but right now, I don't see it that way. Maybe you're right and I'm too blind or naïve to see it, but if that's the case, then I have hope that by continuing to do my own work and continuing to heal, that my eyes will be opened to the entire truth.

Love is not just feeling, it’s an action.

It doesn’t matter what your husband feels or thinks in his head. If he’s not putting that "love" into action, it doesn’t exist, as far as your kids are concerned.

I don’t mean to sound overly critical or harsh, but trying to convince your kids that their father loves them when his behavior says otherwise is almost like gaslighting, even if that’s not your intention. At the very least, it’s giving them a very messed up perspective about love that could lead them to make bad relationships in the future.

He doesn’t deserve credit for doing the bare minimum requirements as a father and then acting like he deserves a medal because he takes them out to dinner from time to time.

This is also the same guy that was perfectly fine with having nothing to do with the child he had with OW because that child was a nuisance and inconvenience as far as he was concerned.

I don’t mean to sound overly critical or harsh, but trying to convince your kids that their father loves them when his behavior says otherwise is almost like gaslighting, even if that’s not your intention. At the very least, it’s giving them a very messed up perspective about love that could lead them to make bad relationships in the future.

I don't think I ever said I tried to convince my kids that their father loves them. I HAVE said that he is there for them if they need him, but no, some of the little things don't happen. This is true for me as well. Like I've said, he would usually think of himself first and then us. He has started to work on that in our relationship, but not so much in his relationship with the kids. All of them are adults now (youngest just graduated this year and recently turned 18...so adult light).

He doesn’t deserve credit for doing the bare minimum requirements as a father and then acting like he deserves a medal because he takes them out to dinner from time to time.

The dinner thing is more of a reflection of his feeling that he is providing for his family. And yes, that is the bare minimum as a parent, since that is our job. I don't think it is a reflection on his LOVE though, it's just about his responsibilities.

This is also the same guy that was perfectly fine with having nothing to do with the child he had with OW because that child was a nuisance and inconvenience as far as he was concerned.

This is accurate. I'd be lying if I said he didn't have any qualms about walking away completely, but certainly not enough to step up as a father for sure. He told OW that he would NOT parent with her and if she decided to continue the pregnancy it would be without him, that he already had a family and it was the only one he was going to have. I can't say what he would have done if I had D'd him. Not in regards to the OC, but I know that he would not have ended up with OW, she is not the type of woman he would want an actual relationship with (what a surprise right?). I also think that if I was OK with him fathering the child, he would have made an attempt. I also think it wouldn't have lasted because it would have taken too much effort on his part.

If I'm completely honest, if we'd D'd when our children were younger, I also think he wouldn't have made too much of an effort to stay in their lives. So, perhaps y'all are right and what we perceive as love, isn't. At least not as an action. I can't imagine not doing everything I can to maintain a relationship with my kids.

I would like to have another "difficult" conversation with him and express my concern about what he said and how it made me feel.

I HAVE said that he is there for them if they need him, but no, some of the little things don't happen.

99% of life is the "little things." God willing, the big things— like rushing your kid to the ER in the middle of the night or donating a kidney— are few and far between.

So if he’s not emotionally engaged and showing an interest in them during the course of their every day lives, he’s not there for them in any way that really matters. Sharing oxygen in the same room doesn’t count.