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That's all we're saying. Just change out the kissing for whatever else.

Or go further and say you dated that man, and, loved him enough to marry him even though he wouldn't kiss you. He has an A, and come to find out, he was more than willing to kiss the AP. Not just kiss, french kiss the AP regularly.

That's the comparison we're drawing here, and maybe it's easier to understand when it's not anal sex (or swallowing, or something else that's triggering for some). What then? Because it would now be obvious to you that kissing wasn't the problem, kissing YOU was the problem. And it was something you wanted in the relationship, and was denied to you; you came to terms with it and gave up that part of yourself to be in the relationship with that person. For what? Why sacrifice what you like when it was and is abundantly clear that your WH (in my example) was more than willing to do it?

Would "FOO issues" as an explanation take away your hurt? Would "I only kissed her so she would keep telling me I was handsome" help at all? "I kissed her for hours and every time I was with her, but I didn't like it"; would that ring true to you? Because, this is commonly what we hear as explanations for why it happened with the AP and not the BS and also common reasons why the WS continues to deny things to the BS.

[This message edited by Rideitout at 6:44 AM, February 17th (Saturday)]

Rideitout, I don't understand your reasoning but believe me I do accept it. These sex acts make you feel loved. I do not refute that.

But these sex acts involve another person, not just you. I'm trying to point out the impact on them and the potential damage there.

Nvt if your goal is to work together with your partner to incorporate these acts into your sex life then we are absolutely on the same page.

I wish you both a happy and healthy sex life.

Rideitout, my husband invested his time and energy to make his AP feel special and attractive and desirable in a way he hadn't made me feel in years, if not ever. After it ended he suddenly switched it to me. I didn't know about the affair or exactly where all this was coming from other than he wanted to reinvest in our marriage. Let me tell you, I lapped it up. Feeling special and wanted by him was incredible.

Now I know the full story. That time of bliss now makes me feel dirty and used. Manipulated. I don't want what he had with the AP. That was selfish and self serving and pathetic. I want something real.

I see where you guys are coming from. I just have a different conclusion.

Reliantrobin, I do not know how far you are from

D day. Though do you not see yourself working

back to where you and your WH hit your peak?

To stay mad at a WH and go back to lesser sex is

that not to bite your nose to spite your face?

A lot of good points raised on two threads. One

in General and the other in Wayward.

Those threads examined should the BH get what

the WW gave the OM during the affair.

No one should force sex to happen.

How is the BH to

heal and accept that he is not going to get

what his WW gave the. That many a WW go

out of character in the affair but once out they get

locked back into their repressed character in

bed.

What has not been discussed is how

does a WW make her BH feel

special and heal while she

never gives her BH what she gave her OM and

how does the BH accept this, and how that her

BH is not as good as the OM in bed?

It is said that 80% of marriages survive an

affair so I am sure there ways have been found

to get pass this.

[This message edited by oldtruck at 7:55 AM, February 17th (Saturday)]

What has not been discussed is how does a WW make her BH feel special and heal while she never gives her BH what she gave her OM and how does the BH accept this, and how that her BH is not as good as the OM in bed?

It is said that 80% of marriages survive an

affair so I am sure there ways have been found

to get pass this.

Speaking for myself, there's no way past it. It's as non-negotiable for me as NC. If it's "off the table" with me but fine for the OM, I respect the decision, but I would need to D. It's a deal breaker, there's no working around it.

Also, something to note, yes, a lot of marriages do survive an A. However, when the woman cheats, there's a much higher chance of D, IIRC, approaching 60% of the time. When the man cheats, there's a much better chance of R. Now, there are a ton of factors for this, and, yes, some of those factors are "male privilege" and expectations, I certainly concede that.

However, this has to be a factor. R is hard enough, if a lot of WW's are going into it with the idea that they can R but not give their husbands at least what they did the AP, especially sexually, that's going to tilt the R vs. D stats significantly. Which is one of the things I was trying to get at in this thread, we can all debate the psychology of it (which I find very interesting) and the reasons behind it in individual cases, but, the dangerous thing; it really doesn't matter to me, and I suspect most men. There can be a million pages of research on why this happens, a million good explanations for what causes WW's to do this, and a million good reasons why they shouldn't do the things with their H that they did with their AP. All 3 million reasons above aren't going to change the fact that most men (and some women) simply either cannot or will not accept it. Sex is too valuable to many of us, it will just be a festering wound that never heals; even if you stay married, I doubt many men can "fix it" and get to the point where they accept their wife has anal sex with the mailman but not him. It's a primal thing, I can't give you the reason, but I can give you the reality. And the reality is D. And we shouldn't sugar coat that message.

Or go further and say you dated that man, and, loved him enough to marry him even though he wouldn't kiss you. He has an A, and come to find out, he was more than willing to kiss the AP. Not just kiss, french kiss the AP regularly.

I've been in that kind of situation dynamic, but not with kissing (although I did have one or 2 second-base hookups in the past many years ago, at college, where the guy didn't try to kiss me, but I didn't care because it was a NSA semi hookup, not a loving relationship). But I've definitely had BFs who gave to others what they never gave to me. One exchanged "I love yous" with his OW while still stringing me along. Never said that to me. I admit I wasn't ready for that yet because while the relationship was exclusive BF/GF (until he cheated, apparently), I didn't see it as serious or having long term potential. But still, it was annoying on principle that he would do stuff with his OW GF of 1-2wks that he never did with me after 2mos. And yes, OW was an "exit affair". He didn't care that I got mad and wanted out, he continued dating the OW for a longer time than he'd dated me.

Probably the worst case of this for me was the last BF I had. He never gave me sex past the first 3-4mos of a total 2+ yrs. Yet he freely gave it away to a girl less than a day after he dumped me (10mos into our 2+ yrs total, spanning 7mos). He complained that I cared too much about sex, yet had sex with other girls even while we were together. He also complained that I was too obsessed with wanting pregnancy, even though he'd agreed that he wanted a family in the next few years, yet at least one of the OW had 2 kids. Talk about double standard of sorts. He also opposed me getting an invasive myomectomy instead of just opting for the full hysterectomy (which would have KILLED any chances of me ever being able to get pregnant someday), him expressing his opposition after-the-fact, despite not even being around when I went through that myomectomy surgery ordeal...yet he respects OWs tattoos or boob job surgeries. His reason for opposing me doing the myomectomy was that it was a potentially riskier procedure, esp given how I had surgical complications from it. Doesn't seem supportive of me wanting kids someday yet has no problems with OWs who have kids. At this point I wouldn't be surprised if he's expecting a baby conceived by an OW while we were together

It is said that 80% of marriages survive affairs

Are you sure? I'm wondering, where are you getting your statistic? I read a few sources putting the number closer to 80%. Also, if it is indeed 80%, is it possible that includes unhappy marriages, or perpetual separations without an actual move-out or final divorce papers?

Or, could this 80% stat include couples who are still together (whether they're in R or not, or planning to eventually stay or not) but only within a relatively short period after D-day? I read that most divorces involving infidelity, don't occur until an average of 2yrs after D-day.

One other thing I'm curious about related to this thread's subtopics. Some people said the BW is entitled to get the same expensive treatment the WH spent on the OW. Now what if the WH spent money on an OW at a sex worker employment where they take a cut of the OW's earnings? Example, WH goes to a brothel or "bunny ranch" and pays $500 for sex, but the hooker only sees half of it. Or WH goes to a strip club and pays $200 for a champagne session in the back room, but OW only gets $120 because she has to pay a cut of the money to the club. What would be the best eye-for-an-eye/even-steven treatment for the BW? Should she be able to get $500 spending money because that's the total WH spent at the brothel? Should she only get $250 because that's all the sex worker OW saw? Or, should WH pay the BS $250 then pay $250 to a nonprofit charity of BS's choice? Hmm...

Also, in the event that a WH pays for extramarital sex... would keeping it even mean the BW should feel entitled to charge him money (that she can use for spending on herself, particularly on "want" items that the WH had previously disallowed her from buying) for sex just like the sex worker OW did? Hmm...

I saw an interesting story on a different forum, dated several years back at least. A married SAHM was cheated on by her WH. WH had spent $1000s on strippers, meanwhile told her she couldn't buy the designer purse she wanted because it was "too expensive". The irony. After DDay, she demanded he buy her that designer purse she'd been eyeing, as one of the conditions to R. (I think eventually she did end up D, as WH became faithful for a little bit then eventually went back to his cheating ways again) I also read a totally different story where a different WH also spent a ton on sex workers (this time prostitutes), but the BW was much more humble and forgiving. She didn't demand money or gifts, just wanted MC. WH declined, claimed they "couldn't afford" MC...yet he could afford prostitutes, right. :rolls eyes:

Ntv If kissing was important to me and I wasn't fully invested in the relationship I would end it.

If I was more invested i would see if it was something he would work on. If not, move on.

Reliant robin pretty much ended it right here. If your no longer fully invested and not getting any then move on. If your more invested see if it’s something we can work on. When it isn’t. And we know it isn’t. Then move on.

I think we are getting to the Crux of the argument here finally. The reality is, we can’t oblige anyone to do what we don’t want, despite the honesty of how unfair it is, rejection, and anger. No one wants to lose, I stand by that. It almost feels as if to get the genuinely exciting stuff we want, BS may as well be APs because the excitement is highest in an affair (sad irony and sarcasm folks). But we can’t force that excitement. That being said:

Some WS are smart enough to figure out this is pivotal to saving their marriage. I don’t want to generalize, but based on anecdotal evidence, and what I have seen on this thread, men tend to view the sexual equality with greater importance. Maybe it’s territorialism? Who honestly knows. But WW who figure out how to help repair their BH egos and sense of sexual worth, have a far better shot at R. If they don’t, nobody can blame the BS for leaving the marriage and finding someone who can give them what they need.

And furthermore, the WS has no right or grounds to say, I really tried to save my marriage, if they didn’t acknowledge and work towards thebBS needs in every way, sexual equivalence included.

[This message edited by nicenomore at 10:21 AM, February 17th (Saturday)]

If a WW can not freely, enthusiastically, happily and willingly do those things that a BH is requiring as a term of reconciliation, there may be a valid reason why. These reasons need to be explored in IC and discussed and communicated between BH and WW.

If the WS wants the marriage, they need to do the work, sooner rather than later.

If the female BS wanted the same romance, attention, etc., no one would ask the woman to sit through counseling to see why he can't be more romantic to his wife. We would say he needs to get his head out of his ass and act like he loves her.

[This message edited by wonderpets at 11:08 AM, February 17th (Saturday)]

1. Is sex (desirability, quantity, variety) the only measure of a man's masculinity? If not, what else?

No, it isn't the only thing. While badly bruised right now, I still know that I am successful, attractive, intelligent and well respected (other than by WW unfortunately). When discussing femininity and masculinity it seems like taking attractiveness/suitability for sex out of the equation would be pretty difficult. It seems to me that it is clearly the biggest factor. I think the sex aspect is also a primal thing. This won't go over well, but here goes: there is something innate in men that makes us want to protect our home and our mate from other men (perhaps because if a woman has a baby you know it is hers, but you don't know who the father is [of course now you can find out, but historically not the case]). I feel that my home and my wife were violated by another man and that is a direct attack on me. This may be caveman thinking, but most of us have at least 2% Neanderthal DNA... so lets not pretend that instinct isn't real.

However, it is also the result of a societal construct. For all of recorded history the cuckold has been an object of derision. Shakespeare's Othello is based on the mindfuck of being cuckolded (yes, I realize that the moral is actually about the danger of jealousy, but the underlying issue is his fear of being a cuckold). The term is an insult because it implies the cuckold is less of a man, that he has been bested by a rival in the sexual arena. Men have not only innate, primal needs telling them they must secure this area of their lives, but a societal view that they are less of a man if they don't.

I don't like this (and I have ruminated over it endlessly) and I wish it didn't affect me this way, but it does. It is also a matter of fairness and the WW demonstrating love and remorse etc. However, I think it is much deeper than that for most men.

2. Is sex the only thing of value a WW offers in reconciliation? If not, what else?

Not at all. All of her assurances and apologies have value. Everything she does to make me feel secure and rebuild my ego and the life we had matter. As we all know though, words don't mean a whole loft early on. Actions matter more.

3. Does nothing else bother a BH besides the sex in the affair? If so, what is it?

I may be in the minority, but the sex (other than in our bed in our house) is not anywhere near the top. The deceit, the lies... hundreds/thousands? The disrespect for me and our family. The betrayal of my confidences to OM. The fact that I was throwing myself into the marriage to try and build emotional intimacy, giving her space to deal with her "sexual issues". The fact that she flat out lied to me about her sex drive... she just didn't want to have sex with me (for reasons that she also denied were a problem when I tried to get into addressing issues, and many are objectively insane or at least completely unfair or fabricated entirely). The fact that she also lied to our daughter and neglected her in order to spend more time with OM. The fact that she spent thousands of dollars on her affair and then would say shit to us like, "no let's not eat out tonight, we need to save money" (while dining out anywhere from 5 to 10 times a week with OM) or "yeah, that's an amazing hotel, but I don't want to spend that much on a room" (while spending up to $500 a night with OM). The fact that she denied me emotional intimacy even when I was literally begging for it, and was all the while providing it to AP. The fact she began her affair when I was visiting my dad who was just diagnosed with cancer. The fact that she kicked the affair into high gear when his prognosis got worse (all the while denying me the support a spouse should give). So many other things. Honestly, I think I could deal with the PA much better if it wasn't also an EA where she fell in "love". (conversely, I also think I could deal with an EA without sex much better... the combination is a gutpunch like I've never experienced)

4. Is their willingness to have sex the only value women have? If not, what else?

I feel like this is kind of incendiary and unfair, but I'll address briefly. My WW was the best counselor in my life. Whether it be career, relationships... anything, I trusted her advice and judgment more than anyone. She was a wonderful mother and helped in raising a wonderful child. Though we became detached over the last few years, through most of our nearly 2 decades together she was my closest friend and until last December was still my closest confidant. She was always there for me, I always knew she had my back. She was a wonderful sister-in-law and daughter-in-law... my family loved her and accepted her and loved her completely (while her own family is a f'n disaster). All of these things are gone now. I don't know if they will ever come back, but I am sure it will take time.

The sex doesn't have to take time though, that is all up to her and it would send a pretty good message to me about her sincerity in wanting to reconcile and address the issues in our M. It would also do wonders for my wounded pride.

Lazarus,

It seems to me from reading your posts you are trying to deal with her affair by yourself while she does what?

It's a losing proposition if she isn't 100% on board and putting a lot of effort into this.

Her actions (spending money on OM, bringing him into your home, etc) is a big FU.

It sounds like you're trying a form of "pick me" which just lowers your status even more. You are putting yourself in a losing position.

Go your own way

I'm getting a postnup done, she broke down when I told her and since she has really woken up. I think I told you that I am not sure I can R even if she does everything right, but she seems to be moving in the right direction now and the postnup will protect my interests while I give her time to demonstrate her sincerity and give myself time to figure out whether I even want to take her back.

Reliantrobin, I do not know how far you are from

D day. Though do you not see yourself working

back to where you and your WH hit your peak?

To stay mad at a WH and go back to lesser sex is

that not to bite your nose to spite your face?

Oldtruck, are you advocating I continue to have sex when I don't have a sexual desire towards him due to his actions? How exactly do you see that getting us to a sexual high? That sex is not going to be fulfilling for me. It's going to escalate me feeling unvalued and used.

If the female BS wanted the same romance, attention, etc., no one would ask the woman to sit through counseling to see why he can't be more romantic to his wife. We would say he needs to get his head out of his ass and act like he loves her.

In my experience the advice tends to be get your head out your ass, figure out why you can't show you love her, work through whatever is stopping you and hope your wife will hang around with whatever crumbs you throw her until you get there.

I have not been able to get back to this thread in days. Great things have happened professionally that have taken my mind space and free time! But, I have read every response and would like to address you all.

First, thank you for such a civil discourse in light of the inflammatory discussion being had.

For the many men that responded: you have given me much food for thought. Your passionate and painful reactions and thoughts on being forced to eat this shit sandwich were taken to heart. There is a gender divide ( not generalizing, just based off responses in this thread) into the effect on the sexes after infidelity and after learning the details of that infidelity.

I started this thread because Of the many posts I read along the lines of: “use that slut sexually for your pleasure now,” “Make sure you get more and better than the AP did,”. And, these responses were not in a sexual thread, but JFO, where the poster is generally still in a state of discombulation. It just doesn’t seem like advice, but someone pushing their agenda.

I’ll end with one another point. A poster recently updated with the news that his WW had tried to commit suicide. A male poster responded and had to, at that point, in that horrific and scary update, remind the original poster that his wife was a”slut.” I responded with “fucking low”, and was raked abit over the coals by the responding posters fan club.

Now, we are member driven, there are no controls (tho awesome guides and moderators), but that response was so beyond the pale it actually made me nauseous.

So, I ask, was that appropriate, or agenda?

Neither.

That's just toxic and awful.