SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Because I was selfishly looking out for my own desires, lol. I would use an asshole for sex in a second. Which kind of made me an asshole too. Assholes may be the problem on both sides.

I doubt the other side of that transaction had any complaints about it. I'd go out of my way to find women like that when I was single; the proverbial "needle in a haystack" that was the "holy grail" of casual relationships. Don't feel bad, I suspect the guys you "used" felt pretty darn wonderful about it. It's hard to "use" someone for something they'd give their right arm to be doing anyway.

But you do see, I hope, how this behavior sets up the incentives for men entirely wrong, right? This is exactly the stuff the much maligned (rightfully, in many respects) "red pill" talks about. And preaches to guys, be the asshole, not the guy who's taking her on 10 dates for a kiss on the cheek, be the guy she's calling after the date for some down/dirty fun. A ton of that stuff is a simple reaction to what you've stated above, and, just to be clear, I'm not calling YOU out. This is a dramatically more systemic problem, in fact, I applaud you for your honesty because most will claim "I'd never do that" and then.. Well, do that.

If my boss put an incentive plan in tomorrow that was "every time you say fuck on the phone, we're going to pay you 1000 bucks, but you'll lose the respect of your peers", guess what our conference calls would sound like? Oh no... I "lost respect". I don't give a fuck, fuck them, pay me my fucking money (3,000 dollars, just for that statement). Incentive plans work, and when you're incenting someone with the thing they most want in the world (which for many will be either sex or money) , well, guess what? You're gonna get a LOT of that behavior.

but I would not appreciate a player pretending to be a good person whom I might want to get to know just to get laid. That whole pretending thing just gets confusing and hurtful.

As most know by now, I would have fallen into the "player category" when I was younger. I lied, early, often, and with great vigor to women about my true intentions. Because, once again, to the point above, it worked. The "incentive plan" was setup such that acting like an asshole and lying were likely to lead to sex. But I didn't make the incentive plan, I just responded to what I saw. I knew what I wanted, and I decided to "play the game" to get it. I can tell you, speaking personally, I would have LOVED to "not pretend" (to your post above) and just walk up to a new woman and say "your hot, wanna go back to my place". No lies, no pretending I cared, no games. The reason I didn't do that, and the reason that very few men do that (at least that I know of) is that it does not work. If it did, the incentives would be "tell the truth, get laid" and you'd get a lot more truth. I know you say you wanted the truth, and perhaps, for you, that line would have been a welcome relief to the lies and you would have appreciated the honestly (and slept with the guy). If so, good for you and kudos for going against the grain. But that's just not the typical situation that I experienced. Yes, I did "direct" a few times, and I think it did work once (3AM at a bar, can't exactly remember). But lying/pretending worked MUCH better. The incentive plan is just messed up and the results of that messed up plan are visible everywhere in the dating and affair game. I can tell you, without a doubt, that my W never would have gone for the "truth" from the AP. If he didn't lie, I wouldn't be here. He lied because it works/worked. Got him laid like tile. Can't argue with results.

[This message edited by Rideitout at 11:17 AM, May 8th (Wednesday)]

believe me, I had plenty of opportunities

cocoplus5nuts

Sorry for the t/j but, over the years, I've seen a lot of GUYS say the following:

believe me, I had plenty of opportunities

and the translation, when a guy says it, is always "believe me, LOTS of women want to have sex with me".

I usually give it a quick eye-roll and figure this guy really has a infantile need to let people know women actually have had sex with him.

As a guy, I have NO idea what the translation is when a woman says it.

Ladies, maybe I'm missing something here, but as a woman, having "plenty of opportunities" should be as simple as going down to the local watering hole and sitting yourself on a barstool, alone.

Believe me, it will take about 2 minutes for you to have "plenty of opportunities".

So what do women mean when they say "believe me, I had plenty of opportunities"?

If the woman saying it means "believe me, LOTS of men want to have sex with me", I really don't think that's all that hard to believe.

Ladies, maybe I'm missing something here, but as a woman, having "plenty of opportunities" should be as simple as going down to the local watering hole and sitting yourself on a barstool, alone.

LOL. Yeah, but I don't think that's what's being said here. I think it's more "someone I found attractive hit on me" than "someone hit on me" (which would be the more common male version of it, ANYONE wanting to have sex with me and hitting on me with the express purpose of getting me in bed is "newsworthy", actually, come to think of it, I'm not sure it's ever actually happened.

Yes, getting someone to want to have sex with you as a woman is pretty darn simple/easy. It's why, IMHO, there's such a divide between the sexes on some of these issues. How could something so "easy" be so valuable? Kind of like the rich guy wondering "why would anyone take the bus??". It's a lack of perspective (which I freely admit, I'm guilty of in the other direction) to the difficulty/effort it takes to have sex with someone new as a man. Having sex with someone new, assuming no crazy standards, is easier for a woman at a local bar than it is for a man in a brothel. So why on earth would men be so up tight about it, right? I think you'd find that Hugh Heffner is pretty "chill" about sex too, he's got a wild abundance of it. But that's not at all common, in fact, I can I don't know a single man who's like that. It's a very rare combination of wealth, fame, looks, power, status and game that afford a man that level of sexual power. The rest of us just basically chucking a lure in the water hoping someone bites.

Yeah, it's very easy for a woman to get sex. I've had men hit on me when I was obviously pregnant. I was not attracted to anyone who hit on me. I was not attracted to anyone but my H.

What I was thinking when I posted that was that I lived in a military town. It would not have been difficult for me to find a young, single male to have sex with, or even date. Some really disgusting shit went down with one wife while her H was deployed. It happens a lot.

I don’t think it’s “disgusting” when that dynamic allows said woman to mother her young children rather than outsource the raising of them. JMHO.

Nope, it's still disgusting. Using a man for access to children is just as bad as using him to sit at home and watch TV all day. There's nothing wrong with staying home to mother young children, but marrying or staying married to man for "access to lots of money" is as repugnant as it gets to me. It's prostitution with a better PR rep.

I don't disagree with the premise that women should not use men or vice versa. And, maybe I live in utopia, but the reality of it is, all the stay at home moms I know are ALL about their family. They are good women, and I am envious of them for being able to stay at home. I stayed at home for the first year with my youngest, and it was the best year of my life. I got to see every change, be available when she was sick, and experience a bonding like no other. It was a tough job, and I will say never having a break was tough. These ladies work longer harder hours at home than they do on the clock, I have BTDT

I just have a hard time with this slant we have going on right now on this site. Darkness falls spoke up because she is a stay at home mom. That is an arrangement I assume that she and her husband agree to, what's the problem? There isn't one.

And now, I am probably about to blur the lines between this post and the woman one...

I do see that we have men on this site who do feel like they are a "wallet with legs". I feel terrible for them if that is really the case. Just like I don't want someone to see me as a BJ provider with legs.

I am 100% happy to give my husband oral sex, because I enjoy it. But, if he thought that was my purpose in life or the reason he kept me around, I would resent him so much that I would never want to do it for him again. That's not gatekeeping, that's just holding value for one's self. cause they resent it, it's their reality.

In reality, what we all want is to be valued by our spouses for who we are and not the lump sum of what we can offer them. If the relationship is healthy, and there is effort from both, I don't think we would hear nearly the comments that we hear on this site.

Because equilibrium means that we can value our partner for themselves and appreciate that they are also able to complete our lives in ways we can not complete it for ourselves. There have been times when my husband made more money, but I put way more elbow grease into our life than he did. I would have a hard time arguing which was the greater contribution during that time period. There have been times when he has had to hold more of the responsibility - like when I had a problem pregnancy with our youngest and was in and out of the hospital, he certainly had to rearrange and hustle. I think he would have a hard time saying which was the greater contribution.

If you are in a marriage effected by infidelity, it's very difficult to reach the state of balance and appreciation that I am talking about. If you believe you are a wallet with legs, then take those legs and go somewhere else. But, before you do hat, really evaluate if that's the story you are telling yourself or the truth. And, vice versa. My goodness there are women on here right now, my heart bleeds for them, because all their husband can think about is what it is he can fuck next. It drives his very existence. It seems like to me the story many tell themselves is different - she wants to believe he is really there for more than that. So, the stories we tell ourselves is so important. It can make or break the marriage, and it can make or break you as a person. And the way we treat each other is so important. Everyone who comes here has been effected by infidelity, and we are all in our own stages of healing. When we generalize and lob shit at each other, we are just making things shittier for each other.

I don't think men are bad people because they would like to have a lot and varied sex with their wife. Or be seen by their wife as attractive, special, desirable, etc. Especially not after their wife went out and did all that for someone else, but even without infidelity. I truly do think it's a tender need for them. I am not saying 100% of the time, but a good enough portion of it.

And, I don't think women are bad people if their husband has gone out and fucked someone else and they are really struggling with being able to feel that desire towards them again. That's not sexual gatekeeping, those are consequences.

Just like a man is not going to negotiate himself into going back to a sexless marriage after infidelity, a woman is maybe not going to negotiate herself into going back into a marriage with more sex than she wants. Infidelity changes the picture, and the context.

We talk without using that lens towards each other.

My goodness there are women on here right now, my heart bleeds for them, because all their husband can think about is what it is he can fuck next. It drives his very existence. It seems like to me the story many tell themselves is different - she wants to believe he is really there for more than that.

Great post Hiking. The bolded part above, I wanted to call out specifically because, that's a pretty easy one for me to talk about personally. Here's the litmus test. Have a ring on your finger? He's out for more than that, almost certainly. I don't know a single man who's ever told me he was marrying a woman "just to have someone to sleep with". If a man did tell me that, after the slack jaw subsided, I'd explain to him that's a really shit plan, and provide some statistics on sex in marriage for him. Marrying to have someone to sleep with is a really shit idea. Your probably not going to have that much sex (if statistics are right), and your also limiting yourself to one sexual partner, something that was undesirable for me, and I think a lot of other men. If sex is what you're after, date, Tinder.. Shoot, have an A with a married woman. All are a MUCH better way to get at what you're looking for.

But, a "wallet on legs" can only be procured through marriage. And, speaking personally, the story lines up; married me because of money, didn't much care to sleep with me, banged another man half to death. All consistent with the "wallet on legs" message. Now, if she'd just been banging me like I was the last man on earth AND we weren't married, well, the narrative would be different, it would be obvious that she wanted something "else" out of the relationship, not just a wallet.

Incidentally, if you want the place most likely to be a "wet hole" for someone, go have an A. Which is the part of this that utterly boggles the mind. It's so odious to many here to consider that their husband wants them "just for sex" and yet, they enter into a relationship where it's almost certain, yes, you guessed it, that the man in that relationship wants them "just for sex". Not only that, they risk more than they've ever risked before for the exact type of relationship that is so odious when associated with their husband. Yes, I think some, perhaps most, don't understand the "deal" they are making in an A, but is that really everyone? Or is it more insidious; it's OK to want me "just for sex" so long as your not my H? Because that's the message that I heard, loud and clear, coming out of d-day.

See this is where I disagree- a man like that doesn’t value his wife any more than the other example. Neither is love. Equally reprehensible.

Well, you can have, and be, a wallet on legs without marriage. It's probably less prevalent, but it can happen.

I'm a SAHM. If my fch sees himself as only a wallet on legs to me, then he doesn't value what I do.

In my anecdotal experience this dialectic is fairly common among single women. What women may not know is that this is often a way to turn off the ones you are genuinely attracted to. The dating equivalent of feeling like a "Plan B". A man considering taking a relationship to the level of commitment and marriage wants to feel a few things for the woman. Among those is the sense that she is very attracted to him sexually. Too much hesitation and delay early in the meeting phase will cement in place the impression that the woman isn't really into him sexually. He may date her for a time, but he is less likely to make a long-term commitment to her.

Oh, agreed. When I say not laid as quickly, I don't mean weeks. I mean days at best.

As most know by now, I would have fallen into the "player category" when I was younger. I lied, early, often, and with great vigor to women about my true intentions. Because, once again, to the point above, it worked. The "incentive plan" was setup such that acting like an asshole and lying were likely to lead to sex. But I didn't make the incentive plan, I just responded to what I saw. I knew what I wanted, and I decided to "play the game" to get it. I can tell you, speaking personally, I would have LOVED to "not pretend" (to your post above) and just walk up to a new woman and say "your hot, wanna go back to my place". No lies, no pretending I cared, no games. The reason I didn't do that, and the reason that very few men do that (at least that I know of) is that it does not work. If it did, the incentives would be "tell the truth, get laid" and you'd get a lot more truth. I know you say you wanted the truth, and perhaps, for you, that line would have been a welcome relief to the lies and you would have appreciated the honestly (and slept with the guy). If so, good for you and kudos for going against the grain. But that's just not the typical situation that I experienced. Yes, I did "direct" a few times, and I think it did work once (3AM at a bar, can't exactly remember). But lying/pretending worked MUCH better. The incentive plan is just messed up and the results of that messed up plan are visible everywhere in the dating and affair game. I can tell you, without a doubt, that my W never would have gone for the "truth" from the AP. If he didn't lie, I wouldn't be here. He lied because it works/worked. Got him laid like tile. Can't argue with results.

Thing is, I don't think I'm a special snowflake. There are plenty of women like me out there. My thinking on the lying thing is that if you have to lie and hurt someone to get laid, you just shouldn't do it. That means you don't get laid and that sucks, but it's okay. While a player is lying to a nice woman, I might have been across the bar getting really annoyed by the other player lying to me and wishing he'd just drop the bullshit before I stopped wanting to sleep with him. Honesty means less sex sometimes, but it's worth the sacrifice.

Don't feel bad, I suspect the guys you "used" felt pretty darn wonderful about it. It's hard to "use" someone for something they'd give their right arm to be doing anyway.

You know...the part that makes me sad is that there were a couple of guys who didn't feel happy about it. They thought that my willingness to have sex with them meant that I thought they were just amazing and wanted more. I didn't and I felt guilty afterwards. Some men do attach a lot more sentiment to sex and get emotionally attached from it. I think that's a beautiful thing, honestly.

My first husband was meant to be a ONS, lol.

[This message edited by DevastatedDee at 9:25 PM, May 8th (Wednesday)]

You wanna know how many "opportunities" women have to cheat? You think you would give your right arm to be "used" like women are used? How about reading this thread and maybe this will open your eyes to how many "opportunities" women have and we don't have sit on a barstool in some dive alone, either.

ETA: removed link, don't need to share

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 11:36 PM, May 8th (Wednesday)]

Given research by Glass and others saying that 2 out of 3 women who cheat are unhappy to very unhappy in their marriage that most BH are indeed plan B. That does not mean that the marriage can not be saved, it means it must be addressed before he marriage can be saved.

Given research by Glass and others saying that 2 out of 3 women who cheat are unhappy to very unhappy in their marriage that most BH are indeed plan B. That does not mean that the marriage can not be saved, it means it must be addressed before he marriage can be saved.

Perhaps the woman should be responsible for her own happiness.

Men's reasons for unhappiness in a marriage are called superficial here. The man is unhappy because his wife has gotten older, greyer, fatter. As long as people are allowed to define their own happiness, there are no inappropriate criteria absenting abuse. The man is allowed to be just as unhappy per his criteria as a woman.

The man is unhappy because his wife has gotten older, greyer, fatter.

The man is allowed to be just as unhappy per his criteria as a woman.

True. Everyone is allowed to think the man is a douche, also.

We just had our 40th wedding anniversary. Dear FWH was gazing at me lovingly, and I asked "What?" and he said "I still see you as the 20 y.o. woman I fell in love with!" I am older, fatter, grayer. But, he loves me and sees ME! I am very happy to be married to this man for 40 years.

Congrats SMS! Turns out, sometimes the former cheater ends up being the better man

(or woman as the case may be). Life is weird like that though. Some people live... and learn.

Good on ya both!

Thanks, ChamomileTea. You are so correct.

Everyone is allowed to think the man is a douche, also.

You always make me laugh, SMS.

Seriously, you can be an asshole all you want. That doesn't mean the rest of us have to accept or like it. Pretty sure men get older, grayer, and fatter, too. I will not be guilted into changing my mind.

Yeah, people need to be responsible for their own happiness, in a healthy way. Hanging your happiness on someone else's shoulders is not healthy. You will inevitably be disappointed.

My fch thought it was his job to make me happy. That was part of his downfall. When I was unhappy, he felt like a failure. Thing is, no one could ever make me happy. I have chronic, clinical depression. Happy is not part of my life.