SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

How are the dance lessons going?

Mrs. W.,

I'm a BW and 4 years out from D.

I just want to say that I wish there were some way I could time travel back to your childhood and hug you and take you away from that verbal/emotional abuse. Especially on the day you got your 1st period, I would usher you as quickly and quietly into the house as possible, help you clean up while telling you that what happened is NATURAL, NORMAL, and VERY OK; that it didn't matter if the skirt were ruined but we would try to fix it... and I'd tell you to wait inside while I went to the store and bought you another skirt.

Your mother didn't deserve you. Not the other way around.

I'm far enough out from my Dday to appreciate that a WW is trying to come to terms with what aided a decision of betrayal. I often ask myself what childhood traumas truly contributed to my own issues like anxiety, quick temper, etc.

You have got me thinking about my xWH and what I know about his upbringing and how that does or doesn't seem to be a contribution to why he treated me how he did. I see a lot of things falling into place. I thank you for that.

I don't have much more to say but I really wish you, your husband, and family the very best.

Mrs Walloped, I am coming into this thread very late but wanted to say a few things...

First, I do admire both you and your husband for coming on here and being so transparent. It proves to be a help for others.

And even though you seem to be well down the road of R (or as much R as one can expect)I wanted to add a thought form a man who was brutally betrayed by the one true love of his life.

Marriage is a secret. A secret shared by just 2 people. The depths of this secrecy run deep and when those bonds are broken, the secret is over and is now common knowledge- it's out of the bag. That secret never comes back. It's something that is lost- I felt it then and I still do 18 years later. It's like losing a leg. It simply never grows back. A prosthetic leg can help, but only so much. And permanent emotional/psychological injuries are far worse then physical.

When my ex was trying to R, she asked what she could do. I told her to just be there. That's all. I would heal as much as I was going to and when I reached the stopping point of healing, it would be enough or it wouldn't. But the healing does eventually reach a stopping point- and it is never truly complete. I will say to a WW it is- but it never is.

True genuine trust and faith are gone. A fake form of each will take over and we accept it as genuine. So spend each day building trust and faith in yourself, to yourself and that will be the best you can do for him. It will suffice if it is genuine.

I do not say this to try and make you feel guilt or shame, but to provide my $0.02 of guidance within your marriage. In as much as I can admire a WW, I do you for your courage and conviction.

I wish you well.

[This message edited by thatbpguy at 8:53 AM, August 13th (Monday)]

Wow! Surprised to see this resurrected.

nscale56, Great! I mean really great. We haven’t been super consistent because life, but it’s great. The people in our class are so cute and so much in love (they’re all ages 65-85). We’re literally nearly 20 years younger than everyone (I picked this group cause it seemed more secure for my husband than a bunch of people close to our age). But it’s fun, great exercise, and we both have a 2 left feet, but that’s okay. We laugh a lot. And we’re so close together when we dance

It’s great. (Did I say it’s great?)

JellyGirl84 and thatbpguy,

Thank you so much for your comments and well wishes. Coming from a BW and BH, it means a lot. Thank you.

Inappropriate response

[This message edited by SI Staff at 12:48 PM, August 12th (Sunday)]

Mrs. W.,

When I posted a comment yesterday, I had only gotten to approx. page 3 of your thread. Now, having reached page 12, around which a discussion begins about your children and whether you thought of them during your A, I realize I have some questions. First, however, I want to explain my backstory (and please forgive me for my text length) but you have been thoughtful in your responses to others thus far and I hope maybe you can help me to see things from the other side, after all these years.

You see, I am not just a BW, but a BC (betrayed child, for those unfamiliar). My bio mother had a PA on my bio father when I was 10. I think the A lasted a couple of months; maybe no more than 3. My father is the one that told me about it. He took me for a car ride around our town and basically vented. That messed me up for a few reasons.

1) I don't believe that he should ever have used his 10-year-old child as a confidante. I don't remember every word, but that conversation was a mix of him, telling me the details of his discovery, and also expressing his feelings of anger, disgust, resentment, etc.

2) It shattered my view of my mother. By this time, I was VERY close with my mom. I prided myself on how the adults in my life would tell me how much like her I was. She was/is beautiful, extroverted, a social butterfly. When I discovered that she had an A on my dad, all those good things shattered to pieces. Who was I if she wasn't the person I thought she was and I am meant to be just like her?

3) I guess I realize it broke my trust of her in general. She and my dad used to make a date night of going out to a dance club. She has always been more outgoing and loves being the center of attention. She was always begging for my dad's attention but as their marriage continued, he withheld affection and became very ornery. He has a ton of his own FOO issues. (As a grown woman now, I can see how this set my mom up to feel desperate for any kind of love.)

So, after awhile, my dad told my mom to just go out dancing with her girlfriends alone. She didn't want to (I remember her telling me how much she wished he would want to go with her) but she did as he suggested and it became a weekly thing. I would help her to pick out what to wear and help her fix her hair and makeup. When I found out about her A, I felt like she had used me to get ready for some OM. Her own daughter; asking me if she looked nice after we worked on putting her together, was helping her to look nice to parade around in front of a man who wasn't my father. I felt disgusting by proxy.

Anyway, I remember very clearly how extremely PISSED my mom was to discover that my dad had told me everything. She told me "it's none of your business". I was so hurt because that seemed like such a cold response. Now that I am a woman, I think she was just embarrassed and mortified to have her kid know the bad thing she had done and probably also was angry because she thought she could protect me from it but my dad had already beat her to the punch.

It took MANY YEARS for me to regain a closeness to her in my heart (which she doesn't know about to this very day). It took many years for me not to cringe whenever someone would compare us and tell me how much like her I was.

Unfortunately for my parents, I believe the A was a deal breaker. It ruined their marriage as they knew it. Unbeknownst to me, my mom tried to suggest a divorce, but my father threatened my mom about having ways to keep my brother and me from her forever. She stayed because she was scared to lose us. She believed him. Then, he told her that he would "make her pay' for what she did. And I believe that these last 24 years have been nothing but him doing just that.

I directly contribute my anxiety disorder to my upbringing in a house full of tension/hate/anger/bitterness because of infidelity. There was always a lot of yelling between them, and name calling. And when I got older, somewhere around puberty, because I truly am so much like my mother, and now was looking as much the woman as she is, my dad directed those feelings at me. He always threw in my face, "You're just like your mother," as much as if he were cursing me.

I vowed that I would never be with a man like my dad, actually. When I found my xWH, my biggest concern was that I didn't think he was anything like my father. I never thought to wonder if he were anything like my mother. And then BAM! He cheats on me and I have to relive the pain all over again but from my father's perspective.

It brought up all the old feelings I had with my mom and a few months out from my Dday, I argued with her a lot. She goes to therapy and she even mentioned it to her therapist. We had a joint therapy session together, and unbelievably, her therapist told me that my husband cheating on me and my mother cheating in my childhood should not merge together but how not?

I read a book with a title, something like When Parents Cheat. It was helpful. It even explains how we tend to find life partners who we subconsciously choose to help us live over childhood traumas, as a means to finally resolve the issues. Every year since that therapy session, I have considered buying a copy for my mom's therapist as a Christmas gift.

Anyway, if you have read through all of this up to here, I really do appreciate it. I shared it so that you would understand the context of my concern for your kids.

First, I know one of your daughters is married and I am assuming the other daughter is also older, at least, than I was during my mom's A. When it comes to your two boys, I am assuming you haven't told them about your A because of their ages.....but I wonder why you and Mr. W. are planning to tell them at all. I am not certain that my knowing really helped me. I guess it explained why there was so much hate and anger in my house, but other than that it wasn't good for much. It really damaged my relationship with my mom for a good long time.

Besides, I hope that if the moment ever comes when you realize that home life is becoming like a war zone, you and Mr. W. would try not to force it. Some people say they stick together "for the kids" but it just does more harm than good. I have only ever wanted to see my parents happy rather than living in this Post-Infidelity Purgatory. You seem, through your writing, to be very intelligent so I know you know this but I included the warning for others who may be of the "for the kids" mindset.

It would have been nice to have seen my parents in a healthy relationship...and perhaps I wouldn't have chosen a mate who would cheat on me? Maybe that's not fair. My mom thinks I blame she and my dad too much...but kids are a product of nature/nurture so what else?

So, in case it was hard to find my questions:

-Why are you planning to tell your sons?

-Where did thoughts of your children go when you were actively in the A?

-What do you think your children are learning from their therapy sessions and/or what have they told you directly about them? (BTW, I am so glad to learn that you got them into therapy).

-Do you or Mr. W. ever rely on your daughters as a shoulder to cry on?

-If your AP has children and they wanted to contact you, would you be ok with that?

Thank you so much for your time, if you survived the wall of text. Honestly, this was therapeutic for me to write out but it's also rare to be able to ask a female Wayward these questions and know she will respond sincerely. I really think you respond sincerely. My mom, to this day, is very uncomfortable with discussing her actions. She plays the victim a lot. So thanks.

Mr. Pessimist- I wouldn’t say Mr.W is an example of “nice guys finish last”. First of all, neither of their stories are finished anyway. And he now has a better wife than he had before. So it seems to me like he’s doing alright.

[This message edited by Fenderguy at 11:47 AM, August 11th (Saturday)]

Inappropriate response

[This message edited by SI Staff at 12:49 PM, August 12th (Sunday)]

MrPessimist

Why don't you read both of their threads before you say something asinine like that.

There always has to be one.

being the boring nice husband

My husband is unable to post on Wayward, and he wouldn’t post on my thread anyway out of respect for this being my place, but he read this and said,

“Boring! Who’s boring? I’m a fun-filled, action packed he-man. Now, if you’ll excuse me, I have to go clean up my stamp collection and then get a good night’s sleep. I have a very busy day tomorrow. I’m going bird watching, you know.”

Mrs W:

I did not mean that as an insult towards your husband (sorry if he took it that way). I meant how a WW perceives her H during her A and immediately after during the “fog” as they call it on this forum.

It sounds like your husband and mine would get along.

Hi JellyGirl84.

I did read it all and I just want to say that I’m so sorry your parents did that to you. I can’t imagine what that must have been like for you to be caught in the middle like that.

First, I know one of your daughters is married and I am assuming the other daughter is also older, at least, than I was during my mom's A.

Yes, my two oldest are married and my third daughter is starting college soon. My boys are younger.

So, in case it was hard to find my questions:

-Why are you planning to tell your sons?

I think they’re going to find out anyway. Their sisters know and something will come up later in life and they’ll find out. Maybe not in a year or two, but even 10 years later. And my BH and I would prefer it come from me/us than be a shock. Also, I am very fortunate that I am still close with my girls. We talk freely and I answer their questions when they have them (appropriate ones). And I’m able to tell them things I’ve learned and actually give them advice based on my horrible choices. I think that can be helpful to my boys too.

-Where did thoughts of your children go when you were actively in the A?

The same place as thoughts of my husband went. Family life was a separate thing and I wasn’t thinking about them at all when I was with my AP.

-What do you think your children are learning from their therapy sessions and/or what have they told you directly about them? (BTW, I am so glad to learn that you got them into therapy).

We have talked about their therapy sessions. Things they learned?

- Parents are human beings and we don’t always do the right thing.

- That my A had nothing to do with them. It wasn’t their fault and it wasn’t because I resented them or didn’t want them or our family.

- They learned how to deal with their fears and anger and how to communicate them with me.

-Do you or Mr. W. ever rely on your daughters as a shoulder to cry on?

Never! No. Absolutely not. We’re both very much on the same page about this. It’s between us and we don’t put them in the middle in any way. The hard part is when the girls want to talk about it and they cross a line, which they’ve tried to do. We both have had to be firm and tell them that it’s off limits. Not detail oriented questions, but more pitting one of us against the other. We were told it was natural for kids to do that to test us and see where we were in our relationship. So we had to firmly yet gently and kindly put a stop to that on a number of occasions.

-If your AP has children and they wanted to contact you, would you be ok with that?

He does have kids. To answer your question, I don’t know. First, my husband would have to okay it. If he said no, then that’s that. My preference is that I wouldn’t want to talk to them because that would be bringing back a part of my life that really has nothing positive about it back into it. It’s not a door that should be opened. And I wasn’t the first woman he had an affair with. So I’m not sure what the point would be. I don’t know for certain, but most likely I guess my answer would be no. Unless there’s some real need, then I’d consider it.

Besides, I hope that if the moment ever comes when you realize that home life is becoming like a war zone, you and Mr. W. would try not to force it. Some people say they stick together "for the kids" but it just does more harm than good. I have only ever wanted to see my parents happy rather than living in this Post-Infidelity Purgatory. You seem, through your writing, to be very intelligent so I know you know this but I included the warning for others who may be of the "for the kids" mindset.

Yes. I agree. Thankfully, that’s not us.

Mrs W., I’m a betrayed and spent all weekend reading your threads as well as your husband’s. I cried multiple times at your husband’s original thread as well as your comments about your break down.

I think I read that last year you two were considering filing for divorce. Is that still on the table? If not, how were you two able to turn away from that?

Thanks

RLinX,

Well, it’s always on the table I guess. It might always be. I don’t mean that my husband would use it as a threat or something, just that he has the right to say my A was a dealbreaker for him. Also, it was always a possibility for the past 3 years, but we discussed t seriously last summer. It wasn’t anything either one of us did (except the obvious of course), but it was more that my husband felt we weren’t progressing and maybe it wasn’t fair to stay married and maybe we should just both move on. He already had all the necessary info from when he consulted a lawyer right after DDay, so this was more talking about it, if we do it how should we handle the kids, when would the best time be, and other things.

The real issue he was having, which means we were having, is that I wasn’t truly empathetic enough with him to fully understand what he’d been going through. I know he’s opened himself up here on SI, but he was very closed with me about his feelings, and I focused on my “work” with therapy and exercises and being the best mom and wife I could be. I did a whole bunch of other things, but he never felt that I understood him or felt his pain. I saw it and knew it intellectually, but that’s not the same thing as feeling it in my stomach and when you don’t, the BS can tell.

He was never concerned about me and my AP, me cheating again, or whether I was remorseful or not. He was focused on our relationship and whether I had damaged it beyond repair. Could we rebuild our marriage? And if not, then what are we doing? It was a shock to me that he felt that way and an eye opener for me. I talked to my therapist about how to focus on being empathetic, understanding him better, communication ideas. I started reading on SI and then joined. We went to MC and focused on his feelings and how we need to talk through them. We learned to communicate better. We started rebuilding our marriage instead of just coexisting in one. And through that, my BH learned things about himself and things he was doing that was holding him back from being open with me (totally understandable). But then he realized that R is an active choice and not a passive one. And it’s not fair to him as the BH, but it takes some amount of effort and work on his part for us to rebuild. It can’t just be me. So after some time, he said he wants to give it a real shot, with work. And that’s what we did.

If it isn’t blatantly obvious, my BH is an amazing, patient, loving man full of grace and love. I am fully aware that I do not deserve him and that every day he’s still with me is a huge gift.

Thank you so much for answering.

I wish you and your husband continued luck.

I know that I’m not your husband and I can’t and won’t do what he has done/is doing.

You two are the model of a couple trying to recover!

I’m glad I made a comment and brought this thread back from the world of zombies. Lol. Would you believe I was sent a private message telling me that I should bump such old threads? I personally think this thread should be read By everyone. This and the one in he general forum where you explained your thought process during your breakdown. It was truly heartbreaking!

Thank you for continuing to post.

[This message edited by RLinX at 8:31 AM, August 14th (Tuesday)]

Mrs w you said

"Another part of my therapy has been self-reinforcement. Positive messaging. Rewiring my brain so that I believe that I’m worthwhile and valuable. So that I lessen my need for external validation. Of course knowing what I did to my husband and family hasn’t helped that part. My cheating just reinforced the horrible thoughts I had about myself and confirmed it. Making myself believe that I am a good person despite what I did was and is one of the hardest things I’ve ever done. I’m not all the way there yet."

How in hell did you get any of the way there? After 35 years and IC I've made very little progress on that.

The inexscapable irony of true remorse is that is invoked a lot of work. Understanding that it takes a lot of work implies and acknowledgement that what you did was of great magnitude. Implying that it was of great magnitude makes one question how you were able to do it without thinking of active betrayal. The part on your husband’s plate, which as you say is realllly hard, is truly understanding compartmentalization, how you’ve healed to make sure this never happens again and why you didn’t understand it either.

Trying to understand compartmentalizations to someone of a different makeup is like trying to explain color to a blind person. They’ll eventually ‘get’ it but it’ll never really settle into the true fiber of understanding. (This is one reason revenge afffakrs are popular beyond the obvious revenge aspect, it’s simply because they don’t understand).

Forgiveness is what bridges the gap and it sounds like that is what he was struggling with last summer. He may still be struggling with it. It is very hard to forgive people. You seem to be doing a great job setting the stage for forgiveness, which ultimately is acknowledgment that your actions truly don’t warrant forgiveness, but that who you are does.

Mrs W, I hope this doesn’t cause you pain, but can you please post the link where discuss your breakdown? That is such a powerful post and I think it would help so many people understand what true remorse looks like.

My understanding of the rules here is that it is not allowed for me to do it.

Thank you so much