SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

V,

How in hell did you get any of the way there?

I think I’ve discussed this before in this thread or in the BS questions for WS thread, but pimarily CBT. To explain it, I use the terms my therapist did which is that my default operating system is an extreme negative self image. That’s my lens. But it’s nit my natural lens, it’s a conditioned one. I still default to it but I have to take breaths and voice out phrases and reframing situations in order for me to move away from that. It doesn’t always work. Many times my brain fights what I want to believe. It’s like my brain likes having this point of view and doesn’t want to give up that hold on me. Anyway, this is likely a lifelong thing for me.

RLinX,

Sorry, but my subscription doesn’t let me go that far back.

Sharkman,

It’s funny, but what you described is the biggest nail in my coffin yet possibly also my biggest saving grace. As you said, there’s the acknowledgement of how big what I did was which should be my death sentence. But at the same time, acknowledging that and not trying to minimize it has shown my BH that I am owning it and not trying to rugsweep it. When he gets low, he calls it a “mindfuck.” Because he doesn’t understand it and I don’t think he ever will.

Forgiveness is not something I’m looking for or expecting. My actions definitely don’t deserve it. Who I am probably doesn’t either. But that’s okay. I can live without the forgiveness. Because he’s still with me. We are working on rebuilding our M. He’s 100% in. To me, that’s what counts most. His day to day actions.

Mrs. W.

Thank you very much for your response. I realized from reading it that this is my "go to" operating system as well. It is not surprising because my upbringing was very much like yours with the additions of alcohol and violence.

Once I realized just what I had done by being an OM and betraying a friend in the process I have never been able to see myself as a basically good person ever since. Rather I see my self as still a bad person but a "recovering" bad person in the sense of a recovering alcoholic. I'm still a POSOM but I have never repeated that kind of behavior. The point is I have never been able to get past this.

The real irony here is that the friend that I betrayed contacted me a few years ago and FORGAVE ME! That brought me to tears and all 250 lbs of me to my knees. But I still can't forgive myself.

Thank you for posting your story it has been really helpful to me.

I have to say I love the exchanges between you and Sharkman, you are both sharp as tacks.

You seem to have moved on from a position of ‘agree to disagree’ to mutual respect, which is a pretty big compliment to you both methinks.

It is amazing what words of wisdom come out of this forum, which you two add to. Here is one example from M1965:

There is another thought that has occurred to me after reading so many threads here, which is that the first person a betrayed spouse has to reconcile with after the discovery of infidelity is themselves. It can take months, and even years, before all the swirling and conflicting thoughts and emotions inside us can start coming back together and coalescing into a settled view of what has happened to us, and what we will be comfortable with going forwards. Effectively, it is like we have been shattered, and we have to pick up all the pieces and glue them back together before we can even consider moving forward as the new person that we have become. That takes time....

I wish I could find something from him or someone else on compartmentalisation as I struggle to understand it fully. I can see the theory of it but not the degree that it is necessary to actually work practically as it were.

-Where did thoughts of your children go when you were actively in the A?

The same place as thoughts of my husband went. Family life was a separate thing and I wasn’t thinking about them at all when I was with my AP.

For example, on a day you had an assignation with the OM when did you stop thinking of your family? Was it the moment you woke up and thought today is OM's day or was it when you were travelling to meet him or was it the moment when you actually met with him? Did you not think of your husband or children once when you were walking with OM, shopping, having coffee, lunch or in an art museum?

And then when you were returning home when did you stop thinking of your OM and what you had done that day?

If you recollect Fudgegate, your husband couldn't understand how you could not be thinking of him when you were with the OM as he did you when buying the fudge, even though the whole purpose of his trip was to be away from you to help him heal.

One of the posters indicated that he was in a no-win situation:

1. That you did think of him but didn't care or

2. That you didn't think of him at all.

I presume from the above quote it was the latter. Did Walloped understand this in your discussions?

Note: I initially edited my post as I thought the latter part was a bit harsh but Mrs W. read this before I did so and as usual answered with great insight and honesty.

I really must not be so fragile when re-reading my posts and have the courage of my convictions. I tell other people to do that often enough!

[This message edited by SorrowfulMoon at 7:56 PM, August 16th (Thursday)]

You seem to have moved on from a position of ‘agree to disagree’ to mutual respect, which is a pretty big compliment to you both methinks.

I always have respected Sharkman. I may not have liked everything he’s said or agree with it all, but I know he’s insightful and pushing me to see through some of the protective layers I tend to wrap myself in. Tough words, if they’re constructive and meant to help, are wonderful gifts. The only posters I discount are the ones who are sadly in so much pain and have nowhere to turn so they use me as a proxy to vent at. I’m learning to handle those posts better.

For example, on a day you had an assignation with the OM when did you stop thinking of your family? Was it the moment you woke up and thought today is OM's day or was it when you were travelling to meet him or was it the moment when you actually met with him? Did you not think of your husband or children once when you were walking with OM, shopping, having coffee, lunch or in an art museum?

It’s not like I had short term amnesia. It’s more that I blocked them out. I can’t say that thoughts of my children or husband never entered my head while I was with my AP, but I never let those thoughts come to the forefront. They were pushed down. But that never happened during sex or anytime around that. It would be as you said. If we were walking past a store and I saw a cute outfit in the window and I’d think “Oh, that would look great on DD1 or DD2.” Something like that. And then it would go away. But there weren’t any type of thoughts like the one I mentioned and then it would go to “My children, my family, I’m not with them I’m with another man, I’m betraying my husband and my children. Ah, who cares, I’m having fun.” Or however those thoughts go. That didn’t happen.

It wasn’t that I was a different person but it was like I was living a different life. And it was very in the moment. It was all about how I was feeling and nothing was going to bring down those feelings while I was having them.

And then when you were returning home when did you stop thinking of your OM and what you had done that day?

That’s an interesting one. It’s strange but it was as soon as I left him. I was still feeling good, but didn’t think of him really. Taking the train back home from the city, I’d feel good, but I generally didn’t replay the sex or think about my AP and reminisce. I just enjoyed the feelings I had. Sometimes I’d send a text saying something like “thanks for today” along with some infantile lovey dovey message and then that’s it. And I also really didn’t think of my AP at home. We didn’t plan our get togethers. We’d see each other on the days I volunteered and just went where the day took us. Sometimes that lead to sex and other times it didn’t. Occasionally I’d get a text from him saying he missed me or that he couldn’t wait to see me. I’d respond in kind and that’s that. I didn’t do the hours texting thing.

One of the posters indicated that he was in a no-win situation:

1. That you did think of him but didn't care or

2. That you didn't think of him at all.

I presume from the above quote it was the latter. Did Walloped understand this in your discussions?

It’s actually both, but more the latter. Obviously I didn’t care. It’s not like I didn’t know what I was doing. I did. And I didn’t care. Or I wouldn’t dwell on it and what it meant because then I’d care and I didn’t want to care.

I wouldn’t say he understands it. I think he acknowledges it for what it was, but he’s not built that way so understanding it is something I don’t think will ever happen.

Did you ever offer your husband a hall pass?

I was offered one and I found it to be completely insulting!

Did you worry that husband would/will have a revenge affair?

Many thanks for your comprehensive response Mrs W.

I greatly appreciate the honesty and thoroughness of your answers. Sorry if I triggered you but it was always a puzzle to me and I think I understand it better now.

Did you ever offer your husband a hall pass?

Did you worry that husband would/will have a revenge affair?

Asked and answered too many times to count by now.

Everyone,

Mrs Walloped is not here to be interviewed. She'e been very gracious in answering every question, but it's unfair to her for people to keep asking questions. Please let her just be here.

^^^^I second that motion.

Forgiveness is not something I’m looking for or expecting... But that’s okay. I can live without the forgiveness...

A very interesting statement(s). Makes me wonder how forgiveness plays a part in long term R. I suppose the best to hope for is forgiving one's self- whatever that looks like. I mean, just moving on isn't forgiveness. Seems to me to forgive one's self is to specifically locate what is broken within, fix it, confess it, and then have a day to day plan to see to it that thing that was broken doesn't come back.

[This message edited by thatbpguy at 8:52 AM, August 17th (Friday)]

I mean, just moving on isn't forgiveness.

Yes. I agree.

My husband and I spent a lot of time working on Acceptance. For me, that meant accepting that I did this to him and to my children and yet somehow believing that I wasn’t some kind of horrible monster beyond any redemption as a result. (Please, I’m not discounting what I did or how horrible or monstrous it was. I’m talking in terms of self-worth.) For him, he had to separate Acceptance from Condoning and come to terms that this happened to him. And it wasn’t an act of God, but that I did it to him.

Forgivenesss, to each of us, is too close to Condoning. I haven’t forgiven myself and he hasn’t forgiven me. I’m not saying that those who forgive are condoning. Not at all. Forgiveness is the ultimate act of grace. It’s a wonderful gift. We’re not there yet and that’s okay. Even if we never get there, that’s okay. Maybe one day I’ll be able to look in the mirror and look back at what I’ve done since my A, see who I’ve been and then forgive myself. Maybe my BH will look at me and do the same. Maybe not. if it doesn’t happen, I don’t think that means we aren’t in R or haven’t R’d successfully.

Seems to me to forgive one's self is to specifically locate what is broken within, fix it, confess it, and then have a day to day plan to see to it that thing that was broken doesn't come back.

I think those are basic requirements before forgiveness can come. But true forgiveness is on a higher plane than that. It’s special and beautiful. It’s an act of grace and love. And the people who are able to offer that forgiveness to their WS are nothing short of amazing.

A very beautiful and wonderful reply.

Well stated.

Seems to me to forgive one's self is to specifically locate what is broken within, fix it, confess it, and then have a day to day plan to see to it that thing that was broken doesn't come back.

One can do all that and still never forgive oneself, nor desire forgiveness from the person one wronged. They are not mutually exclusive nor dependent upon each other.

[This message edited by Darkness Falls at 10:10 AM, August 17th (Friday)]

My apologies for asking something that has been asked and answered multiple times

Mrs. Walloped,

I read your thread and your husband threads (easy to find using google) with interest. I mostly wanted to know what a remorseful wife looks like and I thank you for posting here.

On page 6 of your husband original thread, there is a text posted by Greywolf, the quoted text by a married player. When I read this, as a newly re-married man and a BH, that text scares me. (I’m not sure if I can put the link here or repost his text)

I believe that you have been a prey to such a player. I understand that it doesn’t excuse anything. The methodology that those players apply, over months, to know what to say, how to behave is frightening. Not only women with childhood issues, lot’s of women (except the smartest ones like he says)

My question is: knowing what you know now, what would you say to women on how to fend such players? How to see those games that they are playing? How would YOU recognize a situation like this 5 years from now? What you you tell your sister? Your married daughter: “Caution here be dragons”

Oh and I wish both of you the best in your R

Shutterhappy: I know the quote you refer to. It's infamous in infidelity forums. I believe it's probably a work of fiction, but it does resonate with enough semi-truth that it becomes somewhat viral, like many political memes on the internet.

I don't think Mrs. W or anybody should be asked to be an expert on how to avoid predatory men, nor is it even fruitful. A's happen with men/women who are not predatory, and with men/women who are. In every case, an A happens because a married person opens a boundary and lets somebody else in.

That meme creates a sense that married women are helpless sheep at risk of being pounced on and eaten by a big bad wolf, in need of protecting. It's insulting to women. Women who engage in affairs are generally not "victims" in the process. In most cases it's because they made a conscious decision to cheat on their husbands.

The "protection" against this is a spouse who does not make that choice. The bottom line for spousal behavior, which is my own personal rule: If I wouldn't do this in the presence of my wife because it would make her unhappy or uncomfortable, then I shouldn't do it outside of her presence. Period.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 9:23 AM, August 18th (Saturday)]

MrsWalloped, I just want to say that I wish my ex had 1/10th of your heart or even 1/10th of the love that you show your husband.

MrsW

Forgiveness is the ultimate act of grace

I hope both you and MrW find your way there.

Sharkman,

It’s funny, but what you described is the biggest nail in my coffin yet possibly also my biggest saving grace. As you said, there’s the acknowledgement of how big what I did was which should be my death sentence. But at the same time, acknowledging that and not trying to minimize it has shown my BH that I am owning it and not trying to rugsweep it. When he gets low, he calls it a “mindfuck.” Because he doesn’t understand it and I don’t think he ever will.

Forgiveness is not something I’m looking for or expecting. My actions definitely don’t deserve it. Who I am probably doesn’t either. But that’s okay. I can live without the forgiveness. Because he’s still with me. We are working on rebuilding our M. He’s 100% in. To me, that’s what counts most. His day to day actions.

I agree that he’ll never understand it and will probably never forgive it. It was the big reason I was so damn frustrated here early on. Everything was trying to get that poor man to see something that can’t exist.

Your breakdown was what he needed. It’s unfortunate that s what it was, but he needed to see that you hated the person who did that to the family. Anything else was either too small or barking up the wrong tree. He has a lot of anger in him and that acknowledged it. It’s right for him to be angry.

I don’t think that you’ll ever cheat again but do find it very unfortunate that the way to heal your husband involved hating a version of youself. This must be very difficult for a person who has experienced self-worth issues in the past.

To be frank I think that both you and your husband need a hiatus from here. You are risking having infidelity define you.

You are risking having infidelity define you.

Infidelity does define them. But only part of them. Ultimately, all of us are defined at least in part by our actions. We catch a baby dropped from a burning building and save her life. We become that hero guy who did that. It defines us, at least in part. We get drunk and run a red light and kill a mother pushing a stroller. That defines us. At least in part.