SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

So, CT, if the “fake” grandstanding man took 5k in family assets to take his affair partner to Tahiti, but he refused to take you because he didn’t want to spend the money, you’d be okay with that because you got the “real” him?

Of course not. I'd have gotten my share of that money back in divorce court because it would have been a deal-breaker for me. That's' my point. if you have to keep getting even, don't take your cheater back. There's nothing fair about adultery. If your WS has done more than you can live with, there aren't any bars on the windows or chains on the door. Get out.

I think that many things discussed in many threads actually overlap and are related to each other. This is one of those times. In my opinion, the issues of:

Sexual frequency

Sexual variation

Male vs. Female differences in recovery

Porn use

Society's ills

Gender roles/alpha/red pill male

Women as gatekeepers of sex

Men as "natural seed spreaders"

Divorce winners and losers

Rejection

Love languages

Revenge

Reconciliation expectations

These topics that come up are, imho, all related and are being referenced here in this thread.

What does it mean to be a man? Who is defining that for men in this day and age? The porn industry? What is marriage? What does it entitle you to? Who are men aspiring to be?

I feel as if many men are lost, unmoored--not just because of infidelity, but also for a host of other reasons. I think many women here are simply alarmed at the versions of masculinity that some men are advocating, types of masculinity that project an aggressiveness and anger that appear to put women in the crosshairs, sometimes a WW, but sometimes all women. There is a feel of war, and women are the enemy who must pay. This underlying attitude comes up in many threads.

We can feel that many men are hurting and feel lost, but you're scaring us. We're responding from fear in many of these threads, not just this one.

There is a place--the internet, the porn industry, social media--that is giving men (and women) ideas about what they should get, what marriage should be like, how they should act, and it is creating expectations that no human can meet. I believe men feel (just my opinion) that these messages cause women to feel wrongly unhappy and reject them, while women feel these messages cause men to feel wrongly unhappy and . . . abuse them? That is what I sense.

It is alarming.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 4:36 AM, February 16th (Friday)]

This thread is terribly depressing. It makes me feel like there are so many men who at their core believe women should perform sexually for them.

Withholding sex? This concept only makes sense if you are arguing that you are entitled to sex. And no one is entitled to sex.

If my husband and his AP had decided give sounding a go does that mean I'm entitled to shove metal rods up his peen at my discretion?

It makes me feel like there are so many men who at their core believe women should perform sexually for them

That's the misconception we dudes have been trying to clear up for 12 pages.

Let me try a new wording.

What do you want from a relationship?

What do you want from a relationship?

I want to be loved, respected and valued for me as a person. Not the services I offer.

I want a partner I can love respect and value for who they are as a person.

Let me take that line of questioning a step further before it gets derailed again.

How would you feel if a dude told you that what you want from a relationship isn't what you want or isn't right?

How plainly ARROGANT is it to assume that you can dictate to a man that something he wants out of his relationship isn't something he can ask for?

The dudes here have displayed vast amounts of patience trying to explain their point of view only to be met with emotional attacks time and time again.

Hell, if you are reading this and don't get what we're talking about isn't anywhere near abuse/rape that we have been repeatedly accused of, then you just haven't been reading.

Edit: reliant, the you in this is general, not you specific

[This message edited by Notthevictem at 6:01 AM, February 16th (Friday)]

Reliant-

I am simply saying that if you love and commit to a person and make sacrifices through a relationship, including your own desires and needs, only to find out those desires expressed by an AP who hasn’t committed at all, are gladly considered and fulfilled by your WS, how would you feel about the relationship you had, and invested in? I think you are blending the 2 wrongs don’t make a right and tit for tat analogies, which isn’t what wee are trying to say. So obviously, if you never wanted to jam rods up your husbands urethra, it was never a desire for You. If your WH and his ap did it, doesn’t mean you want it anyway. BUT if you did, I would expect HE would understand why it’s not fair to you to deny you the experience if he didn’t deny someone else.

In a marriage m, we sacrifice our needs and desires because we universally accept that they are offf the table, out of love and respect. If they are done with an AP, we just learn that they weren’t universally a no go, just a no go with us. And that is what we are trying to elaborate on. I want to reiterate that no WS can be forced to do anything. For the last time. Just that the BS is best to walk from the marriage and likely will, if this is the case.

Owning it-

I’m disheartened that you lump all the topics of male aggression, abuse, porn, male dominance,and masculinity together, and snowball it as an attack on women, when that is far from the topic at hand here, I am sorry you feel that way.

For the record I was vocally opposed to the red pill male ideology here in another thread. It’s a personal belief if mine that it’s wrong. But sex is a tough issue, and it needs to be addressed, comfortable or not. There ARE abusers and rapists,

There ARE men like that in this world, but I doubt they are trying to have an honest discussion on an infidelity board. They are out there doing what it is that scares you, and you paint all men accordingly with the same brush. I was cheated on by an immoral woman. Doesn’t mean I think every woman is going to fuck me over. There ARE shitty women out there that lie, cheat and take advantage of men, doesn’t mean I see all women this way? Both sexes have their bad apples but I can’t afford to live that way, not trusting anyone of the opposite sex, and I don’t think anyone should either, man or woman.

No one is entitled to anything in this world. Plain and simple. But a betrayed spouse, who is attempting reconciliation, is deserving of self respect, and love and affection. I am hard pressed to accept that needs and desires rejected the BS, but gladly given an AP, aren’t indicative of who is actually loved and wanted. How could a WS argue otherwise? All I am saying is that if as a WS, I wanted to R with my BS, I would understand how this looks, and feels for the BS, and I would do my best to show the BS they ARE worth the treatment they wanted, but I gave to the AP instead. Bottom line is the BS gets robbed of their needs, and the AP gets paid in spades. As a WS, I’d have no hesitation giving it back to my BS, and more to prove who deserved he love and respect all along, otherwise I’d get out and let’s the BS find someone who deserves better than me. End of story. And sex, as much as is being demonized, portrayed as male violence or aggression here, is still a valid form of expression of love and desire.

So let me back track and simplify- if a husband loves blowjobs, but his wife tells him she won’t do them, he will accept it, knowing the woman he married just doesn’t do them, will accept it. If he learns that she WILL, for an app who hasn’t given her nearly as much sacrifice or commitment, his opinion of his worth to her, and also her boundaries, has shifted.

[This message edited by nicenomore at 6:30 AM, February 16th (Friday)]

NTV, honestly I believe there's a lot of language barriers in this thread despite it all being in English. I'm not trying to make you feel like a rapist or someone who desires to sexually abuse their spouse. Really I'm trying to communicate how your wording makes me feel.

Let's assume the sexual act here is bjs and for whatever reason your wife has said in your marriage she does not want to do them. She has an affair. You discover that they are freely given to the OM.

I don't think it's too far an assumption to make to say that the 'relationship' your wife had with the OM was an unhealthy one. It was not based on love and respect.

To me a demand that your wife now freely offers you bjs is asking her to model the unhealthy behaviour in your marriage. I honestly don't understand the appeal of it.

To me, a frank and open talk about your desire for the act and you and your wife working together as needed to work on making the act part of a healthy sex life for the both of you would seem like the path to a good marriage.

Now I don't know which route you (or the other posters on this thread) have taken. The only info I have on that is your posts. Those posts to me imply it was the first.

An ultimatum. A comply or get out. And that makes me feel uneasy.

False! It was only unhealthy in the affair! BJ's should be a part of a health marriage with your spouse period. Putting up boundaries with your spouse after not having them with your AP is wrong. There should be zero boundaries with your spouse. The boundaries should be against everyone else. That's just more wayward thinking.

And yes, if the spouse refuses anything to the BS then that is grounds to terminate the relationship. The A should have been the deal breaker but might be overcome. The sexual experiences that were freely given to AP and now still denied to your spouse? Unforgivable!!!

Nicenomore, believe me I understand completely the hurt in a WS offering things to an AP they did not offer to their partner. I guess to me the issue is not the act itself but the fact it was offered freely.

An ultimatum doesn't fix that issue for me.

Robin, there won’t be a relationship—healthy or unhealthy—if the BS resents the WS. And withholding that which the WS gave the AP will create resentment.

And, yes, no holds or holes barred. I have not heard of “peening”/“sounding” before but if a wayward husband gave that experience to his AP he owes it to his wife should his wife want it. “His body his choice” does not trump overall fairness.

[This message edited by PlanC at 7:14 AM, February 16th (Friday)]

Let's assume the sexual act here is bjs and for whatever reason your wife has said in your marriage she does not want to do them. She has an affair. You discover that they are freely given to the OM.

I don't think it's too far an assumption to make to say that the 'relationship' your wife had with the OM was an unhealthy one. It was not based on love and respect.

There relationship was unhealthy, the sexual acts were healthy. If the act was given freely there is nothing wrong to ask for it

Let's assume the sexual act here is bjs and for whatever reason your wife has said in your marriage she does not want to do them. She has an affair. You discover that they are freely given to the OM.

I don't think it's too far an assumption to make to say that the 'relationship' your wife had with the OM was an unhealthy one. It was not based on love and respect.

To me a demand that your wife now freely offers you bjs is asking her to model the unhealthy behaviour in your marriage. I honestly don't understand the appeal of it.

To me, a frank and open talk about your desire for the act and you and your wife working together as needed to work on making the act part of a healthy sex life for the both of you would seem like the path to a good marriage.

This is a good example, and I agree with you, that is a good way to go about it. But, and I'll speak for myself here, it's just too much to expect of me as a BS. Work through my searing pain over what she did plus try to fix her and dig into why she did something she didn't really want to while, at the same time, not getting the same act that I deeply desire? Maybe some men can do it, but I know I couldn't. I know that an A is a pile of crap to deal with, but layering this on, whether or not it should be, I think is just a mountain too high for me to climb. Especially when the net result is very likely to be "I was broken with the AP, the BJ was a symptom of that brokenness and therefore, we will never be doing that". Is that true? I have no idea, I can't imagine what being "broken" and sharing deeper intimacy with someone have in common, that appears to be something more exclusive to WW's, and I can't understand it. But the net result is going to be the same; for me, it would be D; no matter the reason for the brokenness or how many heartfelt discussions, I can't see myself ever being able to accept it.

The "appeal" of it, I get it, nobody here seems to want to do things with their W that she doesn't want to do. The "appeal" is "I did it for the OM, and I WANT to do it for you, and more, to show you how much more I care for you than him". And I think what we're all saying, if a WW can't generate that feeling, or doesn't feel that way, then R is most likely not going to work. It's just too steep a mountain to climb for me, and it sounds like many other men.

True or not, men view sex as attraction and love; it's socialized in us very early in life, and, frankly, in many cases, it's true. Back in HS, 2 boys date the same girl, she kisses one and sleeps with the other, we see that as "she loved the 2nd more than the first". As a young adult, you date a girl and she gives you peck on the cheek, vs the girl who sleeps with you, vs the girl who has anal sex with you. We view the 3rd woman as being most in love with us, the most willing to sacrifice and care for our sexuality. I'm not saying that this is right, or that this is how women feel, but I am saying that this is how I feel and men I've spoken to almost all echo this sentiment.

And, because of this, I (and many other men I suspect) live with this "cloud" about sexual acts around us. We marry our wives and they refuse us acts; we spend a lot of time convincing ourselves that it's her choice and nothing about us. But, the truth is, it is about us. Put a far more inflammatory way, the way I see it, right or wrong, is that every women will give BJ's, have anal sex, swallow (or whatever) WITH THE RIGHT MAN. With a man they love enough to do these things. And the A, the acts done during the A, show us, in no uncertain terms, that our linger fear is in fact true. Is it generally true? I have no idea, but I do know that it is true much of the time; women reserve those acts for the men they care the most about, and many of us (men) have plenty of experience with women to say that is something that is absolutely applicable to many women (and men, BTW, a lot of men will sleep with a woman but not go down on her, that act is reserved for the women we care the most for, at least for me).

Ugh. If that's really the case, then our best advice to future WWs would be that the marriage can never be equitable again and they'd be better off to just end it.

And don't get me wrong... I'm not some prim little pilgrim. But asking people to perform sex acts they don't enjoy in exchange for acceptance or forgiveness is just wrong. It's pretty much prostitution. No different than taking money for it, or doing it in exchange for ego kibbles.

So, the WW performs a blow job in exchange for validation from her AP. How many does she owe you to make it even? Just the one, or is it in perpetuity?

I'm pretty glad right now that my R has worked out. I'd be scared stiff to re-enter the dating pool after reading this thread.

CT: You already admitted that if your wayward gave an experience (expensive vacation) to AP but refused to do so with you, you’d divorce.

This is no different.

[Quote]There should be zero boundaries with your spouse

Yikes. Um, I am entitled to boundaries. As is my husband. My sexual desires do not trump his right to bodily autonomy. And vice versa.

Pretty sure my thinking isn't wayward.

CT: You already admitted that if your wayward gave an experience (expensive vacation) to AP but refused to do so with you, you’d divorce.

This is no different.

Yeah. Know your deal-breaker. If it takes turning your wife into an unpaid hooker to R with her, you've probably surpassed your limit on tolerance.

Ugh. If that's really the case, then our best advice to future WWs would be that the marriage can never be equitable again and they'd be better off to just end it.

CT, this is pure victim mentality. No, our advice shouldn't be to end it. Our advice should be (and is, in this thread), if you're not willing to do for your H what you did for the AP, end it. If you are, and want to save your marriage, do what you did for the AP and more for your H to help him heal. That's a WW's choice, and what your implying is that no WW will ever want to do with her H what she did with her AP; which I simply don't accept.

But, if that is the case, if WW's are only going to do the "good stuff" with APs, not only should we tell WW's to walk, we should tell men "don't ever marry" because, frankly, very few men can deal with that level of imbalance; we marry to get the "good stuff" with the woman we love, and to have that for a lifetime. If the way to get that is to be an AP (which, not to get OT, but, evidence tells us, IT IS the way to get that; and I suspect there's at least some subset of male APs out there exclusively to get the "good stuff" because they know it's easier to, for example, have anal sex with an OW than it is with their wives or with some random hookup from a bar), we really should recommend women not R, and men to be APs, because they get the things that many men most desire, the deepest and most intimate physical intimacy a woman can offer.

[This message edited by Rideitout at 7:26 AM, February 16th (Friday)]

.... the way I see it, right or wrong, is that every women will give BJ's, have anal sex, swallow (or whatever) WITH THE RIGHT MAN. With a man they love enough to do these things. And the A, the acts done during the A, show us, in no uncertain terms, that our linger fear is in fact true. Is it generally true? I have no idea...

With "the right man", a woman is free to be herself.

If you turn it around and it's the AP who does these acts for a cheating husband, then she loves him MORE and he should stay with her, right?

You can view a WS evening the scales as prostitution if you want. If he/she doesn’t like the consequences of the affair he/she should never have had the affair.