SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Thank you all! It has helped to vent here. Yeah he massively sees what I did as as a betrayal as I told people also about the way, I felt he was treating me leading up to it. He feels that I painted myself into a victim and aired all our dirty laundry which I get but I honestly wasn’t in a good place. Anyway, he is treating me a lot better.

Well at least it looks like he is following through with moving offices, which means he won’t see her anymore. I think people were right and I need to enforce stricter boundaries. I will wait and see if other changes are made. The Mc uses looks at our negative cycles which I get we have and I contribute to. He loves his kids so much but I do get that I don’t trust him and he thinks I should because he has made these changes. I think he thinks I want to punish him forever for something he can’t take back or change

I don’t trust him and he thinks I should because he has made these changes.

You’ve written this on a thread which is about catching your WH still in contact with the ow. Can you see how this is gaslighting from your WH?

I could quote a lot of what you’ve written in the last post to demonstrate how your WH has turned the abuse flame up slowly to the point where you are apologetic about YOUR reactions to his traumatising actions.

To make it clear you have not "painted yourself as a victim", you HAVE BEEN the victim of his betrayal and have every right to tell people about his behaviour. He is upset that you outed him, his behaviour. Do you realise what this says? It says he cares more about his public image than his family. He considers you outing him as betrayal, omitting to acknowledge that his actions are what lead to it. Actions have consequences, a consequence of me being a jerk is that the wider society may find out about it. If I don’t want my extended family and friends to think I’m a bad person, then I should not behave like one, not ask my spouse to hide the fact I’m one.

This is similar to posts I see from time to time from other users that checked their spouse’s phones, discovered an affair, confronted the cheater, and he turned it around by accusing the betrayed spouse of not respecting their privacy. It makes my blood boil.

Have a look at DARVO. That’s exactly what your WH is doing.

One last point: a father/parent that "loves his kids so much" doesn’t abuse their mother as he knows this is damaging them too.

[This message edited by Luna10 at 12:48 PM, Monday, January 15th]

In my experience, when we bend over backwards to try to get someone to change so that we can stay with them, we will engage in very questionable, even immoral or abusive behaviors when they continue their unacceptable behaviors. We get more unhinged because we cannot accept ending the R to solve the standoff.

Your out of control reactions are because you are focused on changing someone who is not changing. You. Cannot. Force. Him. To. Change.

You are not doing the kids any favors trying to save this relationship. And the solution is not you tolerating his disrespect and betrayal "better." That's like saying, "I shouldn't scream so loud when he punches me because the kids get upset." Seriously? Your reactions are the problem? Both of your threads speak of a very abusive H who twists everything to be the victim. You cannot R with someone like this.

The solution is accepting that he is an unacceptable husband. Get away from his abuse by divorcing him. I'm sorry to be so harsh but his behavior is atrocious. Completely irredeemable.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 1:34 PM, Monday, January 15th]

Lemonpie

A couple of points:

I have shared this story so many times… About 15 years ago I managed a guy who was caught by his wife having a workplace affair. I was totally unaware, but the OW was (and still is) a friend of mine working in another department and even in another building. I know for a fact from both of them that the affair ended on d-day. This guy did all he could to save his marriage: he stopped going to social events at work, didn’t use the cafeteria and was in regular contact with the wife. This despite OW working in another department in another building. About six months after d-day the OW changed jobs. Left for another company. The guy told me later on that once that happened something changed in reconciliation. That finally his wife seemed willing to let go of some fear. This despite the OW new job being less than a mile away, and IF they had wanted to remain in contact they could have.
I think you are experiencing something similar. Only… unlike my colleague your husband isn’t doing everything he can to help you…

I get it that your husband has experienced trauma but if the MC is putting that trauma on YOU… well… I don’t agree.
I think you need to clarify that to the MC. You can ask him this:
If you were a rape-victim… would the MC be giving the rapist an excuse to hide behind like "well… you did order the steak, and everyone knows that if you order steak the date at least deserves a BJ".
In some ways being the "victim" of infidelity has similarities. It’s not something you created – not anymore than showing cleavage is taken as a mitigating factor in rape.

What the MC might have to clarify is that yes – the shame of exposure is a trauma, but it’s a trauma of your husbands making.
The trauma of the affair is not a trauma of your making. That is the big difference.

Your husbands co-owners… Are they aware of the affair?

Have the two of you talked about divorce?
Are you clear – through your OWN sources – what that would look like?

I have to be very frank here: It does sound like your husband is in damage control rather than reconciling.

Thank you all for taking the time to reply. I see elements of him being abusive to me which is what I told friends and family when it all came out. when I initially left and then came back he became quite controlling listening in to my conversations with friends and family, reading messages on my phone going through my emails which is why the marriage counsellor suggested we don’t look at each others phone and he has stuck to this. I was allowed access to his work emails but not his private ones. Anytime I would mention the affair, he would then bring up the fact that I told people and I felt so ashamed that I had done that I would then accept that as us both being wrong. As time went on though I just got angrier and angrier and started making snidy comments which he refers to me now as being abusive.

In other ways he, started to help a lot more as while he was having the affair he was refusing to help with the kids. He can be so lovely and supportive loves buying me expensive gifts and I can be fiery and by no means perfect that I doubted whether he was abusive so wondered whether I was also toxic. So when I calmed down I felt ashamed of what I had said to people and he felt I made him into a villain.

Bigger- I agree him still working with her, has been eating away at me. Not allowing me to trust him. Ts

[This message edited by Lemonpie at 3:00 PM, Tuesday, January 16th]

Also just to clarify, his work colleagues do not know. I never told them and he has a whole social circle through work so he can escape from this shame. My biggest regret is telling his family I should not have done that or random people when I was crying and I get it is so hard everyone knowing our business which is why I am trying to post here rather than go to friends anymore.

Anytime I would mention the affair, he would then bring up the fact that I told people and I felt so ashamed that I had done that I would then accept that as us both being wrong. As time went on though I just got angrier and angrier and started making snidy comments which he refers to me now as being abusive.

This is DARVO, plain and simple. Deny, attack, reverse victim and offender. You were never obligated to keep his affair a secret. The nerve of him asking YOU to protect HIS shame at work, while he continues on with his A, is unbelievable.

Him helping with the kids and ... checks notes... allowing you access to finances, is not "doing the work", it's like bare minimum spousal stuff. Denying you access to finances is financial abuse. Him trying to cut off your access to family members is abusive. Making you think that the bare minimum is "treating you well" has skewed your sense of what is and isn't normal.

Honey, you are NOT in R with this man - you never have been. He's still lying and he's still cheating.

[This message edited by emergent8 at 9:44 PM, Monday, January 15th]

What Emergent8 just said. Completely.

He traumatizes you with his A, he poisons the well at his own place of work, and then it’s somehow YOUR fault that his secret got out?? Oh, hell no. He is embarrassed at work, not because you told, but because he actually HAD an affair. No A, no problem.

Frankly, the fact that your IC has turned ANYTHING back on you in this way is very troubling indeed. He has an A. He lies to you over and over and over. He forces you to find out the truth of your own life and marriage because he is withholding it. . .and your therapist uses your checking his phone as an excuse to give him freedom to cheat without fear of being caught. You share your trauma that is caused by his actions and betrayal with others, and your IC decides to put your on equal footing as BOTH having been betrayed by the other. So when YOU do something, the therapist creates a false equivalence and imposes restrictions. . .on YOU. Can you tell us what restrictions have been imposed on HIM because of the actual issue here????

Honey, as Emergent8 says, this is not R. Not in any way.

You need to remove the word "help" from your descriptions of his PARENTAL OBLIGATIONS. No, he does not HELP you with the kids. They’re HIS kids, for crying out loud. Does he have any parental responsibilities or did you conceive those kids all by yourself?? He doesn’t LET you have access to things. You are his spouse, financial partner, co-parent. They are YOUR finances too. You have every right to know every single detail of them.

You are not mutually victims of each others’ actions, LP. He is absolutely an expert at turning things on you, blaming you for the consequences of his own actions, and deflecting from responsibilities. And you are conditioned to accept that at face value and take on blame that is not yours to own. Part of your work is to learn to stop taking on his shit. Time for him to grow up and accept that actions have consequences instead of expecting to be able to do whatever he wants and have you accept responsibility for rugsweeping and cleaning up after him.

You are not obligated to keep his dirty secrets. You are not obligated to cover up for him. You are not required to be grateful every time he actually does some minor thing that any normal spouse/parent does as part of being a parent/spouse. Think about all the things that you do just because they have to be done. Then get a clue that it isn’t special that he hangs out with his kids for a bit or takes out the trash.

For what it’s worth, I think MC is a waste with him right now. At the very least, you need a counselor that understands infidelity and will stop doing more harm—inadvertently or otherwise.

(((LemonPie)))

I’m focusing a lot on their work-relationship because I think that could be key to the problem.
I think your husband is being extremely manipulative, and I doubt he’s only manipulating you.

I find it… strange… if she expected him to move in with her and even had a residence ready for them and then he didn’t… and that she’s all fine and hunky-dory with that. As in no big scene, no going to her superiors and telling on him, no dramatic exit from her job and all that. I also find it strange that after that big turn-down she still talks to him in anything resembling a friendly tone – even if it’s only work related. I find it strange that a young woman (or man for that matter) with the optimism of youth would remain at a job where her lover has jilted her, probably seeing quite clearly how she was only being used.
I know I’m wildly speculating but I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s also manipulating her… Like… "We can’t be together NOW because my wife would take my company away and we would both lose our jobs, but our eternal love will survive the next year (always being extended) while I figure out how we can be together."

Somehow he’s got her content with what he’s offering her now.

Is he her direct supervisor? Does he have to be in daily business contact with her or regular business contact with her? Is there someone else at her level that could handle?

Do you know how he managed to keep the affair secret at work when friends and family know?

I can share a couple of things with you based on experience as a manager for decades:
Generally, people know about (or suspect) work-affairs. However, they are reluctant to be the ones that expose them. Like a manager might know of another manager dipping into the work-pool… but doesn’t want to be the one that goes to the CEO or HR. They might take their colleague aside and warn them, and even the CEO might have an informal chat… but there is extreme reluctance to do anything formal about the issue.
There is always the fear of relationships between managers and their subordinates leading to sexual misconduct charges and illegal dismissals. This give the OW extreme power IF she is a direct subordinate to your husband.
I can also share that in my experience – in a 1000 person company – the unwritten rule is that if a comparable situation arises as you have – then within 18-24 months one or both participants have moved on to other jobs. The manager realizes that he isn’t getting the raise or promotion he expected and mover on, or the AP is "promoted" to some dinky boring task and realizes the job is a dead end and quits. To help make the decision HR provides glowing recommendations.

All the above to say:
I think your husband is juggling a lot of balls, and he’s using emotional threats (like the trauma "you" caused") to keep control. I don’t think you are being offered reconciliation, but rather a possible path where he can defuse THIS situation while retaining you and gently easing his love-interest without career-impacting consequences.

So, what do I suggest?
Basically, the same thing as in all comparable situations:
Really think long and hard about what the real worst-case scenario might be.

We tend to think it’s losing our partner when in fact I think it would be immensely worse to discover a month from now that they are still talking, suspecting 2 months from now that it’s more than only business, and then 6 months from now that she too went to that "conference" for the weekend…
If that’s the worst fear then the only way you can handle it is by forcing issues. Best way to do that is to have at least a basic understanding of what other options really are. Yes – what would divorce look like…
Of course, you have other options like agreeing on an open marriage or living together as an economic unit with no emotional expectations… but I’m guessing that D sounds less bad than those options.

Notice I’m not telling you to file. I’m suggesting you check what it would look like – remove uncertainty and fear.

Once you have options… You can demand he decides what he wants, and what he might need to do to get that. You realize that what you thought previously was the worst option is less bad than remaining in infidelity.

What would a commitment to reconciliation look like?
Well… to start off with he wouldn’t be blaming you for his trauma.
He would be working on how to convince you in a believable and accountable way that the affair really is over.

You need to remove the word "help" from your descriptions of his PARENTAL OBLIGATIONS. No, he does not HELP you with the kids. They’re HIS kids, for crying out loud. Does he have any parental responsibilities or did you conceive those kids all by yourself??

This is one of my most triggering things in life. If you’re a man and you’re telling me you cannot do X thing because you have to babysit I’ll give you a piece of my mind. In fact I still sarcastically thank my WH for things he does for our kids, it’s our internal joke. "Thank you for picking YOUR daughter up from school/thank you for making YOUR KIDS dinner etc".

This guy has got you right where he wants you unfortunately. He cheated but twisted the situation so that somehow you share the blame because you dished out the consequences of his actions. Poor lamb.

For context I pretty much called WH’s entire family during the first week post dday and told them what WH did. I then told my best friend and my brother. About 4 months post dday I had enough (WH also worked with ow and I discovered he decided to be her friend and support her through her heartbreak, poor muffin) one of the conditions to just remain married and in the same house for another few months, was to become accountable and make me his priority, this included telling his line manager he needed to focus on my needs and why. He told his line manager on a call in front of me and later on he (the line manager) would constantly ask what I needed, making sure WH is not limited by work in offering it. He (line manager) knew who the ow was and helped on several occasions to ensure NC stays in place, ensured WH does not, under any circumstances has to ever work with her or even attend a call with her, he even told WH to work from home indefinitely when ow decided to take a role closer to him, and later on helped in having her removed. All this because WH told him about the affair and that he needs to put his marriage first.

WH has not once blamed me for blowing his cover. He has not once asked me how dare I tell his family what he did. He never wavered once he truly wanted to R and realised I will not accept half asked efforts. He got into IC and worked hard to demonstrate he’s capable of change. He hasn’t been perfect by any means but he never shifted the blame on me.

I’m telling you all this not because I want to show you my WH is better than yours. I’m writing this all down to perhaps help you see what true desire for Ring looks like, what you should expect from your WS, what change looks like in the beginning. Change has not even started in your WH.

Drop the MC, she’s helping your WH to manipulate you. You haven’t got anything to work with whilst he blames you for the consequences of his own actions. I’m sorry.

I’m so sorry you’re going through this. He’s still seeing her. He hasn’t ended the affair. The conversation that he is having for half hour is just to wait and see if she opens the door.

The fact that her number isn’t blocked and the fact that she answers the phone means he is not reconciling with you. He’s reconciling with her. Please let that sink in. He feels he wronged her and let her down and continues contact ….. for what?

You ARE NOT to blame.

Bigger- thank you, I have found this very strange. I really thought if she hated him as he said she would have left by now which makes me think you are right and he is manipulating her. She is so young, he said it was because she is career focused and he is hardly ever in so his presence doesn’t bother her. She is directly his subordinate but can go to others there. I have felt so much dislike from to her but I need to recognise that she may also be manipulated. He is at least agreed to change offices and will have a totally different team.

Even just now he has said why aren’t you showing me affection ‘I am the only one trying to make this marriage work’. Because I can be quite cold and I don’t showaffection..

[This message edited by Lemonpie at 3:02 PM, Tuesday, January 16th]

There is nothing to save here. You said the marriage was bad before the affair. It's horrible now. He's abusive. Has always been abusive. He abused you in front of the kids.

Not all marriages should be saved.

He isn't at all remorseful.

He's a horrible father. A good dad doesn't risk the safety, security, and happiness of his children. And a good dad doesn't create a toxic environment for his children. And he certainly doesn't abuse the Mother of his kids in front of them.

Take a picture of your finger.

Interesting that he doesn't want to go to mc. It's because he knows what he did was terrible,and he wants that mc to keep manipulating you for him.

There will be no healing with this man. He's mean
He's cruel. H

Can we give ourselves that this young career-focused woman is intelligent?
(Keeping in mind that intelligence and being sensible are two separate things – theoretically one can argue that you can outrun a bullet (theoretical logic, based on intelligence), but a sensible person wouldn’t even try (reality, based on a sensible fear of being killed)…)

So how dumb and/or low in self-esteem would you have to be to accept working for the boss that did the stereotypical boss-seduces-subordinate, promised you gold and green pastures, gives you the impression he’s moving in and then goes back to the wife he’s been promising to leave from day one?

Think she would be having casual conversations with the guy that fooled her and rejected her?
Career-wise she knows that if she went to the other owners she could write her own termination-terms OR have her ex-lover removed.
I’m thinking that there is one main reason she’s still there… that reason is because she’s been convinced that she has a future. What I cant be certain of is if the future is in the career or with her lover.

Thanks bigger, I had to edit some if it as was a bit worried he might find this.

She is highly intelligent! I have just had that conversation and he has said it is a cushy job and are paying for training but she is highly skilled and would walk into any job

He’s clueless. Selfish at the very least.

He wants to know WHY YOU are not showing HIM affection.

I would have walked out of the room and not engaged in that conversation.

He took a risk that you will want to R. There is no guarantee just b/c he does a few things after the affair ends that you will forgive him or want to stay married to him.

Again - he doesn’t get it.

You need to really step back,and look at what he's done here.

In order to successfully reconcile, a ws must be completely honest and transparent, and have no contact with the AP. There can be no reconciliation without these two factors.

You caught him calling her. He stopped you from listening to the entire conversation. He has so much disrespect for you,that he assaulted you in front of the kids, in order to get the truth(the tape) from you. He is willing to physically injure you,to prevent you from learning the truth.

He's willing to terrify the kids, to prevent you from the truth.

He's not willing to stop the affair. He's not willing to go NC with her. But he IS willing to assault you.

He's demanding affection, a few days after injuring you. He's assaulting you, but says he's working on the marriage. He's equating his several month affair to you being traumatized and reaching out for support.

Are you in ic? Stop the mc. Get into ic. Work in yourself. Make a plan. Even if you did everything he wanted, he's not committed to making this work. He's treating YOU with contempt.

Old timer here that no longer ger posts when I see good advice from others. But abuse gets my ire up.
You are being abused and manipulated. This is not an M or a reconciliation. You are being handled. I would urge you to see the police and an attorney or several to understand what your rights and his obligations are. Your desire to R is based in fear not in potential for your H to be a good partner. He is incapable of that.
Please start making you and YOUR BABIES the first priority. Attorney please please please.

Lemonpie, please fire your MC. She isn't just enabling your husband to manipulate you; she's gaslighting you herself. Trust everyone who tells you that a bad MC will make everything 10x worse.

Frankly, you shouldn't be in MC with him at all. He is still lying to you. He had taken exactly 0 responsibility for his actions. He feels entitled to keep his girlfriend while you remain faithful to him. The fact that they will no longer share an office means very little. After all, most people don't work with in the same place as their romantic partners.

Even just now he has said why aren’t you showing me affection ‘I am the only one trying to make this marriage work’. Because I can be quite cold and I don’t showaffection..

This man has cheated on you, physically assaulted you, and terrorized you in front of your children. Why should you show him any affection? Why should you try to "make this marriage work" when your marriage is not safe for you or you children?

And make no mistake, when your husband says he wants the marriage to work, he wants it to work for him. He sees you as an appliance, not a human being.

Lastly, even if you're willing to tolerate abuse, your kids did not sign up for this. You owe it to them to raise them in a safe, healthy, environment... not one in which their mother lives in fear of their father's violence, infidelity, or disapproval.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 4:59 PM, Wednesday, January 17th]