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A WS's boundaries in life, in general.

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 NotMyFirstRodeo (original poster member #75220) posted at 7:11 PM on Friday, October 15th, 2021

Thanks for the feedback everyone. When I asked the question my mind was in a non-sexual/non-AP related space so this will be what I primarily speak of.

As far back as I can recall my W would not set and maintain healthy boundaries with family members, our children and her friends. Of course this is my opinion so take it with a grain of salt.

Family/friends: Over the last few years (since DD:2019 edition) I have learned how my W's prepared to speak about so many things that I feel are not appropriate with others.

To keep it short, I feel if one has a concern/problem with your spouse you first take it to them and work on the concern where the problem, source and solution will ultimately be. It's not that someone can't get any feedback from a trusted friend or family member. But, to start, wouldn't you draw the line on what not to discuss with someone else at what you've not even brought up to your spouse yet? From there I could see some grey areas where speaking with a spouse about a concern is going nowhere and someone may scratch the surface of said problem a bit with a trusted person. But even then, there's a fine line where someone isn't seeking council but rather, they're just making the spouse look bad.

After DD, from time to time I would look through my WW's phone. During that time I'd not considered to look at her conversations with her girlfriends or family members as they weren't relevant to her A. At least that's what I believed until after months of trickle truth and gas lighting when it started to become more clear how treacherous she had been and was actively being with me. It was hard for me to wrap my head around what I was starting to realize about her and how she viewed me and our marriage. So I began to read those messages too and I saw how poorly she spoke of me along with just a lack of kind things to say about me. Her friends had nice things to say about me, but not her. Some of the things she would say were things I would NEVER speak about with anyone else. Not because they weren't necessarily genuine feelings I had. Not because you're harboring a spouse that's a criminal or anything like that. But because once certain things are said it will leave a lasting impression on someone and if it becomes gossip fodder, the damage to a spouse's character would be forever tarnished. It's a boundary that's placed to protect those we love from otherwise harmless idiosyncrasies we all have. Shoot, doesn't knowing you yourself have some unflattering traits and empathy for your spouse make you weigh if you'd want the same thing said to others if the roles were reversed?

In this particular case she presented me to a friend as a cruel husband demanding sex from her without a hint of concern for her recovering from a C-section. She'd had one 5-7'ish weeks prior and I'd not even hinted at sex or being hot for anything from her. It was in my mind that I'd wait until she showed herself active enough until I put a feeler out to her. After she'd began to exercise and do what I'd consider vigorous activities around the house I asked if she might be up for something. She said she wasn't and I kindly let it alone. Over the next few days she was quite active and so I expressed that I imagined she might still be sore downstairs but maybe she'd be up for some oral or an old hand-shammy. She straight up got angry with me and chastised me for not caring about her. She'd set a clear boundary with me that I would get nothing regardless of how active she was. I wasn't going to argue with her as it was a zero-sum situation from my side. This didn't stop me from seeing how little I was asking for from her. I let it go.

There I was in the middle of 2019 reading how she was presenting me to a friend of hers how awful and cruel I was. She made me look like a selfish sex fiend. She conveniently left out how active she'd been and how I asked for far less than anything from her downstairs. In hindsight I recognize that what she presented may be what she really felt that first time I asked her if she would be up for anything. It wasn't fairly represented, no. And yeah, it was way out of context. But still, why would she not have a boundary in place for such a topic? Wouldn't she know how badly this would affect my rapport and character in her friends' eyes and know that it may get spread to others?

Which leads me to family. It came to light that my W's SIL (her bro's wife) has repeatedly spoken badly of me in front of and to my W. I read it in text form and my W says nothing to defend me. It reads to me like tacit approval of whatever's said. I've accepted that her SIL is comfortable speaking of me this way because my W does it too. My W has no boundaries for others to not speak negatively of me, true or not. But I can see anger flair if/when I criticize (always as kindly as I can) either of her parents or her brother and she'll not remain silent. She'll defend them and debate with me over it. Not for me though.

Children:

Any given day I will see my W refuse to set or enforce boundaries with the kids. When I've asked her why she has such a hard time simply saying "no" when "no" is the appropriate response, she redirects that she does say no (about something else unrelated) and avoids what the real subject is. It's not that she's never said no. It's that it supposedly happens but only when I'm not within earshot.

The kids have unfettered access to sweets in the kitchen and they act on that as any child would that hasn't been told to ask first. I've set a house rule that they must ask first but I am not there as much as she is and she doesn't enforce the house rule. So I end up looking like a mean dad because I don't want them to spoil a healthy appetite, be wired all night and also want them to learn that they'll not always get what they want in life (I don't want to raise entitled brats).

My W has the hardest time with our 3 YO (allllmost 3 YO now) screaming and freaking out while hanging on her until he gets her undivided attention or what he wants. While he's with me, he behaves (as much as a 3 YO can) and listens to me. He's not scared of me...quite the opposite, we wrestle around and play really good. I tell him I love him, hug him countless times a day and we get to enjoy each others genuine smiles constantly. My W does the same but she struggles to contain/control him. It's not about love being there or not. I've tried to kindly explain that he behaves for me because he has learned that when I say something, I mean it. I understand he's 3 YO, set boundaries that are appropriate for a 3 YO and then I consistently reinforce any boundaries set. I've encouraged her to do the same but I feel as though my doing so irritates her because I am not with the kids as much as she is. By default, mom knows kids better than dad does....or something like that. (again, just my own feelings)

Bringing it to the A's:

She's admitted that she entertained the last AP's texting/calls because of "not wanting to offend or make him feel weird by saying something to me or telling him off" rolleyes (Admittedly, she just recently said that she did it because it made her feel good). I asked her if instead of beginning to flirt and shower her with compliments, he had begun to say inappropriate things about one of our kids, would she have responded the same way about not wanting to offend or make him feel weird by telling him off or telling me. She exclaimed how quickly she would have shot him down and told on him. I asked why she'd respond that way, and she said because it'd be way inappropriate and inexcusable. Me: "Ask yourself W. Why didn't you feel his advances on you were just as distasteful? It's all about boundaries. The boundaries you've set do not protect yourself or our marriage. Why?? Why is it so hard for you to set boundaries that protect US??"

Folks, don't get me started on the boundaries I've lived with for 20 years.

When I weigh how few boundaries she has for her family, friends and, yes, the AP's, against how forceful she is with boundaries with me I am left with a few ideas. The first is that it's less about the ability to set boundaries properly and being more about if she likes someone or not. The next is that it's something she's never conceptually understood. Maybe she sees boundaries as something for bad people and good people are boundless?

I have a hard time empathizing with or understanding her on this (again, as I perceive it). To me, boundaries are neither absolutely good nor absolutely bad. The measure set, when appropriate, is good and when poor, is bad. There's the rub. At the core, it's really a balance problem I suppose and a lack of appreciating the underlying purpose. It's a measurable expression representing what one loves and what one hates.

I've discussed these parts of our life/history with my W. I don't think she gets it. I see her look at me while I am speaking but I really don't believe she understands what I am saying.

[This message edited by NotMyFirstRodeo at 7:11 PM, Friday, October 15th]

Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later that debt is paid.

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3yrwait ( member #29907) posted at 7:49 PM on Friday, October 15th, 2021

Great topic. I think there are several paths to crossing boundaries. Many samples above show people already lacking boundaries. But I don’t think that is always the case.

I became interested in this topic for obvious reasons. Dan Arielly shared a story of the many baby steps it took for an injured cyclist to become a drug dealer … he didn’t just decide to deal, he kept crossing small boundaries and justifying until he was a full blown dealer.

FWW has very clear boundaries for herself and others. But she took baby steps to a full blown EA and PA. Getting coffee >> going out for coffee >> flattery >> a hug and kiss >> more kisses >> justification of EA and demeaning me >> sneaking out >> sex >> more sex.

Each incident was slightly worse than the prior, but nothing she should worry about…until it was.

Me: BH (early 50s)Her: WW (early 50s)Married 25 years1 daughter, under 10DDay July 2007

posts: 538   ·   registered: Oct. 21st, 2010   ·   location: 3yrwait
id 8693484
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13YearsR ( member #58259) posted at 8:13 PM on Friday, October 15th, 2021

Over the next few days she was quite active and so I expressed that I imagined she might still be sore downstairs but maybe she'd be up for some oral or an old hand-shammy. She straight up got angry with me and chastised me for not caring about her.

I might be in the minority here, but this would piss me off. I don't ask for one-sided sex from my husband and he doesn't ask it of me. I realize that we might be the oddballs, but your W's response strikes me as perfectly reasonable. There's a whole lot more to being up for sexual activity than physical wellness, especially postpartum. Sounds like she might have exaggerated when she relayed the information to her friend, but I'm betting she felt pressured by you and disrespected.

My W has the hardest time with our 3 YO (allllmost 3 YO now) screaming and freaking out while hanging on her until he gets her undivided attention or what he wants.

It's pretty typical for a child's behavior to be worse with their mom (or primary caregiver) than with anyone else. You're not beaten down by the little bugger all day.

The truth will set you free, but first it will piss you off. ~ Gloria Steinem

The grass is greener on the other side of the fence because you're not over there messing it up.

DDay 2004. Successful R. 33 years married

posts: 604   ·   registered: Apr. 13th, 2017   ·   location: TX
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 NotMyFirstRodeo (original poster member #75220) posted at 10:58 PM on Friday, October 15th, 2021

I might be in the minority here, but this would piss me off. I don't ask for one-sided sex from my husband and he doesn't ask it of me. I realize that we might be the oddballs, but your W's response strikes me as perfectly reasonable. There's a whole lot more to being up for sexual activity than physical wellness, especially postpartum. Sounds like she might have exaggerated when she relayed the information to her friend, but I'm betting she felt pressured by you and disrespected.

I shared the relevant parts to limit an already-long post. It was left out but I was very attentive to her needs, being point with the other 2 kids wherever possible while carrying on running the business in which there were some major problems happening, helping as much as possible with meals, sharing the late night/early morning newborn chores, house stuff and whatever else she asked for or I perceived that she'd appreciate. I was a romantic and still spoke as sweet of words as I could to her. During all of this I was asking how she was doing physically/mentally while we were dealing with everything.

It's impossible for me to list every nuance to the time. But even in hindsight, I can empirically say I treated her gently and with compassion especially before/after the pregnancy. What wasn't touched on in my post was her 19-year track record of using sex as a weapon against me and me knowing to expect that. I didn't even consider approaching her until after I saw her running on a treadmill and exercising because I didn't want her to think it was all I cared about or give her another weapon to smash me over the head with. I made love to my wife, it was never sex for me. Quite the opposite was our dance. No matter how kind, gentle and loving I was to her, she was frigid to me.

Do you know what it's like to just wish to make someone happy at any cost to yourself and only receive rejection and literal disgust for almost two decades? Do you know what it's like to expect your efforts at intimacy to be rejected EVERY TIME? Do you know what it's like for your spouse to refuse to kiss you for more than a decade no matter what you do, how you communicate the pain you feel from it? Have you known what it's like to never be told "I love you" unless as a coined reply that's repeated after you've expressed it? Again, almost TWO decades. Not a few weeks or months. Maybe you have experience with seeing firing up any intimacy with your spouse as a fucking jigsaw puzzle of emotional pain for 19 years straight....I dunno, maybe you do. But if so, you might consider cutting me some slack. I made her wants priority over my needs for 19 years. If you know anything about this than you'd know there is no key to their heart and no matter what you do you're screwed. That's what it's like when your spouse openly treats you as a mistake and beneath them. The best I could do is wait, see if it's a physical limitation by respectfully asking her if she'd be up for something. Or maybe I should have started to attempt to kiss her neck/some other physical indication of intent, get the 100% guaranteed rejection and anger of me presuming she was ready for sex? Oh yeah, she didn't allow me to kiss her *at all* aside from an off-center cheek peck. It's easy to armchair quarterback but with all due respect, you have no idea what it was like for me. I did the best I could with an impossible to please wife.

I'll save how things actually went in the bed for another day but don't presume that I behaved in a one-sided way when it came to intimacy or how she felt. For 19 years it was one-sided, but only for her. I asked her for the HJ/BJ knowing she wouldn't give me one. I hadn't received a HJ since we'd dated, 19 years prior. And BJ's were treated as only for when I was a good boy or some kinda shit like that. But when you've gone 2.5 months without intimacy and your spouse is capable of providing some kind of relief (at no personal/health cost), WTF wouldn't you help them? I would. I gave her the standing offer to help her out whenever she needed anything. Point blank: She turned me down because I hadn't done enough to earn it yet.

With all of that said, since 2020 I started to value myself and can say she has squandered many years of marriage. She treated me awfully and I no longer have her on a pedestal or see myself as less-than. I've been a good father, good husband, am arguably handsome, witty enough, successful in business and well capable in the sack. My above post is not meant as a woe-is-me and 13YearR, I imagine you didn't mean anything by sharing your .02. But it struck a chord with me and getting this out is a version of therapy I'll take advantage of.

Anyways, about boundaries...

[This message edited by NotMyFirstRodeo at 11:04 PM, Friday, October 15th]

Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later that debt is paid.

posts: 363   ·   registered: Aug. 19th, 2020
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csaiht ( member #77335) posted at 11:16 PM on Friday, October 15th, 2021

My husband had terrible boundaries all around. He didn't even know what boundaries were until fairly recently.

However, I didn't always know what healthy/good boundaries were either, and I never cheated.

[This message edited by csaiht at 11:22 PM, Friday, October 15th]

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csaiht ( member #77335) posted at 11:19 PM on Friday, October 15th, 2021

What made my husband’s A so mind boggling to me is that he had never crossed any lines before when it came to women. I didn’t ever catch him staring at other women. I’ve never seen him be flirty, or even overly friendly. He’s actually a pretty quiet guy around people he doesn’t know very well. I used to joke with my sister that he would never cheat because he didn’t even know how to flirt. Joke sure was on me 😂 (you have to laugh about this shit sometimes)

Same!! My husband had a completely different personality at work and I had no idea. I NEVER thought he was the type to cheat. He didn't flirt with other women in front of me ever, didn't stare or make comments about other women, etc. He was really living a secret double life.

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13YearsR ( member #58259) posted at 11:26 PM on Friday, October 15th, 2021

If you feel this way, then why are you still with her? Serious question. I do understand that you have a lot invested in your marriage (time, kids, money, etc.) so it's not easy to walk away, but are you willing to continue not getting your needs met for the next, what? fifteen years?

I asked her for the HJ/BJ knowing she wouldn't give me one.

Then why'd you ask? Another serious question. You had to know that she would not react well. And performing sexual acts when you don't want to perform sexual acts does cost a person something. It's soul-damaging. I don't think too many men experience that feeling, simply because of the mechanics.

Also, let's not play "do you know what it's like?" This is an infidelity site. We all got the shit end of the stick.

[This message edited by 13YearsR at 11:27 PM, Friday, October 15th]

The truth will set you free, but first it will piss you off. ~ Gloria Steinem

The grass is greener on the other side of the fence because you're not over there messing it up.

DDay 2004. Successful R. 33 years married

posts: 604   ·   registered: Apr. 13th, 2017   ·   location: TX
id 8693520
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csaiht ( member #77335) posted at 11:32 PM on Friday, October 15th, 2021

Good point. I don't think it's necessarily a conscious choice, though. I don't think they do a run-through in their heads before they do stupid, sexist shit. "I wouldn't ask Bob to sit on my knee, so I shouldn't ask Susan." God, it's so ingrained.

Right! It's deeply ingrained especially in men from the time they're little. They don't always know why they're doing it, but they do know what they're doing. Because yeah, they wouldn't ask Bob or their female boss to sit on their knee.

The book "Why Does He Do That?" by Lundy Bancroft explains this really well and in depth. It's an excellent read.

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 NotMyFirstRodeo (original poster member #75220) posted at 11:47 PM on Friday, October 15th, 2021

Then why'd you ask? Another serious question. You had to know that she would not react well. And performing sexual acts when you don't want to perform sexual acts does cost a person something. It's soul-damaging. I don't think too many men experience that feeling, simply because of the mechanics.

To learn where her head was instead of presuming. In my head there was always a chance she may consider my needs and be loving. You might as well ask why any BS has kept trying to R while their WS continues to not give 100%. It's the same kind of hope. It's illogical. It makes no sense.

After DD2019, she admitted that she intentionally withheld as punishment. The big bad H was not insensitive to the W. The W was abusive to the H. What other choice did I have than ask? Seek what she intentionally denied me from another woman? The point of my sharing was that regardless of if it was possible for me to approach it better, she had no boundary to sharing things with a not-so-close friend that was harmful to me. (see a trend here??)

Also, let's not play "do you know what it's like?" This is an infidelity site. We all got the shit end of the stick.

With all due respect, I'd request you step down from your judgement chair or answer the questions before criticizing my actions. I'm not talking to anyone else nor seeking their sympathy. I'm talking to and qualifying the judge who presumes far too much. If you've been in my shoes or close to it, I'll lend your criticism a bit more credibility.

*some edits made*

[This message edited by NotMyFirstRodeo at 12:05 AM, Saturday, October 16th]

Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later that debt is paid.

posts: 363   ·   registered: Aug. 19th, 2020
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13YearsR ( member #58259) posted at 12:02 AM on Saturday, October 16th, 2021

I'm not presuming anything. You told us what you did and what you said.

I could ask a litany of questions of you from a woman's perspective. Because you haven't been in my shoes, nor I in yours, does that mean that we can't discuss the issues?

This is your post, though, so I'll stop responding if that's what you prefer.

The truth will set you free, but first it will piss you off. ~ Gloria Steinem

The grass is greener on the other side of the fence because you're not over there messing it up.

DDay 2004. Successful R. 33 years married

posts: 604   ·   registered: Apr. 13th, 2017   ·   location: TX
id 8693533
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 NotMyFirstRodeo (original poster member #75220) posted at 12:23 AM on Saturday, October 16th, 2021

I'm not presuming anything. You told us what you did and what you said.

I'll leave the "one-sided" bit to the discernment of the reader but, IMO, it's fair to view your "bet that she felt pressured and disrespected" by me was presumptive. It wasn't that at all. She admitted that she withheld from me for 19 years for no good reason. That was left out of the post because I was under the impression that I'd be taken at my word.

I could ask a litany of questions of you from a woman's perspective. Because you haven't been in my shoes, nor I in yours, does that mean that we can't discuss the issues?

As far as I am aware, I'm not criticizing any woman's actions or defending their husband's cruelty to them. If I do, please let me know and I'll be quick to apologize. For me, it's the opposite when I read a BW's words here. My mind doesn't go to how she probably was less-than-perfect to her H or took missteps through their journey. A BW posted something yesterday or the day before about how much she misses genuine intimacy with her XWH and my heart goes out to her. I feel for her because while we rock different bits, we probably share very similar feelings despite our differences. In a way we are in the same shoes in that moment.

This is your post, though, so I'll stop responding if that's what you prefer.

No worries at all about not being welcome here by me. I appreciate a respectfully candid chat.

Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later that debt is paid.

posts: 363   ·   registered: Aug. 19th, 2020
id 8693538
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HalfTime2017 ( member #64366) posted at 9:53 PM on Monday, October 18th, 2021

NMFR- Your W is a people pleaser. You are probably the only person who gets to see the real HER. Its a tough place to be.

Put it this way, its like a parent who never compliments their child, but throws praise on every one elses kids. YOu're that child. YOu are never going to get an atta boy from her. But for everyone else, no shes quick to tell them how great they are, just never you.

Would bug the shit outta me. Are you still married to her?

posts: 1426   ·   registered: Jul. 5th, 2018   ·   location: Cali
id 8693866
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