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This is a tough one.However navigate it carefully.Your son will eventually have to decide for himself what type of relationship he wants with his father.Any input from you on this may seem like you are trying to destroy the father son relationship and not that he is.As a narcissist he will deflect this onto you if he can.His behavior reminds me of my ex.Always deflecting and not looking at himself as having the problem.This type of person runs away always believing it's the other person or environment that is causing their misery.People like this are incapable of true empathy.Somewhere in their developmental.stage that was destroyed.It sounds a bit like he DARVO'd you to me.Have you read about the narcissist tendencies and behaviors? He probably doesn't know himself and is incapable of doing the necessary soul searching to understand what he is doing.This personality type doesn't do that.The internal search for truth isn't there.He probably doesn't even understand his own emotions half the time because he refuses to acknowledge them appropriately.I am so sorry you are going through this.I know how destructive it can be.If there was one thing I wish I could have changed from my own situation from my past is I wish I had known more about the psychology of my ex and learning tools to handle it appropriately.Especially the kids.They will need that intervention as well.I really like the series from Dr. Ramani on you tube.It gives some very insightful information on certain personality disorders and how to deal with them.Often after quite a bit of research I learned I may have had narcissistic tendencies myself.It's a battle for me but it takes one to know one.Not that everything about me is terrible but I am willing to recognize the parts that aren't and try to change and grow from it. wish you the best and (((hugs))) for now.

[This message edited by Bonetired at 5:21 PM, May 1st (Saturday)]

That is exactly right, Owningitnow, I think he is a narcissist in the true sense. He has turned into a fully blown one, having had latent tendencies.

I don't need my children to hate their dad, not at all. I just see and know how they have been damaged in the past few years by his covert abuse of the whole family. I want them to have a healthy bit of distance 'cos right now no good can come from that man, he is steeped in addictions and blameshifting. My DD said she can't recognise the man who used to be her father, he has changed so much. He

seems emotionally weird, spaced out and fake. That is what addiction does.

I can't and don't want to reveal that I found evidence of drug taking too. But that really worries me, in terms of his judgment and influence. Because there are no overnight stays the risks on that front seem manageable.

We were all surrounded in the fog of his misery and yet he made us all feel sorry for him as he made our lives hell. My DD worked this out for herself, my son knows something is off but is less likely to realise his dad has been and is abusive.

It is harder to protect my son because the abuse is mostly covert. He will not take parental responsibility but will create a pity party. He will smile whilst lying to your face. He has done this recently to my DD and she has seen through it. That is not good for any kid, to have a dad who lies compulsively and doesn't take responsibility for being a dad.

You are right, his fun dad mask may well fall, but I am more worried by the gaslighting by stealth that he does so well. It does something to your boundaries.

Bonetired - great name - it is indeed hard to navigate. I have spent a year not bad mouthing him and not interfering but many times the contradiction has been unbearable. He sucked the life blood out of our family life and is still insisting I am making up long term infidelity allegations. I honestly care more about the moral health of the kids, and their need to know what healthy boundaries in relationships are, than having them take sides as such. It breaks my heart that their dad has failed so spectacularly. I suppose the question is how do you have a relationship with someone so steeped in dishonesty and self pity that it is never going to be good for you because they can't even see your needs? How much harder it is when that person is your parent. As a child you might not realise it until much later that you were defrauded. I think I have to watch from a distance for now but my gut says he is bad for the self esteem of both kids. Until and unless he can take responsibility for the pain he has caused and stop with his constant lies.

We really need to focus in healing. He has screwed us all over.

So true..my son still suffers from stuff that happened due to his father.Wished I had more power over it but was powerless at that time.Young and broke and ignorant.I hope the kids can get the IC they need to help them .Sounds like you are a strong parent looking out for them which will be beneficial in the long unfortunately he won't change.Maybe with you there the kids will learn how to navigate their emotions through this difficult time

Communicate, communicate, communicate. You can highlight your exH's irrational and hurtful behavior without completely bashing him (NOT saying that's what you'd do). "Dad probably doesn't mean anything by it, but sometimes he's not thinking of the long term issues." Stuff like that. I've had to do stuff like that with my own kids related to various family members. It's not a parent, I know, but over time we really spoke honestly about people's mistakes...and our own.

Lying is a big one with narcissists--asking people to go along with a lie, buy into an obvious fib or exaggeration or lie, or they'll ask someone to lie for them. That may be a moral conundrum, but you can prep your son for it by bringing the topic up more often. "Are you sure that's what happened? I know that sometimes adults want kids to tell lies and cover things up, but you never need to do that. I will never be mad at what you tell me. You can always talk truth with me." You can guide your son's morals from outside their father/son relationship, Graphite. He will hear your support. And he will see that when he's with you, he's not asked to do these things that make him uncomfortable. And he'll soon realize which parent is asking far too much from him.

Thanks Bonetired and Owningitnow. I am doing my best to communicate and show them what it means to be honest with your self and others. My daughter wants a complete break from him, she is feeling exhausted and ill from the lies. My son is feeling who is this man, I can tell, but mostly does not want to dwell on it. I reckon he still wants that surface level chat and contact, which I get, but the illusion is shattered. He had him on a pedestal and would rather not talk about it. He is not in IC, my daughter is. I don't feel the time is right for my son. The family counsellor is an occasional touch base person.

I think it can be damaging to force a child to look at stuff when they are not ready. But I also don't want my son to bury his feelings, like men are taught to.

Yesterday my daughter got messages from her dad on her phone reiterating he never cheated and gaslighting her about contacts on his phone with lipstick emojis which he told me were her friends (it was her old phone). She confronted him and told him they were not. He insisted.

We all need a break from this crazy back and forth between two different realities. I am about to text him to say we all need a contact break for a few weeks.

My daughter has done a ton of research on narcissism and the tragedy is they get worse. The more they can pull people into their orbit the more narcissistic they get. That’s just plain scary.

Sometimes the lovely sunny days are hardest, as lockdown eases, and I see people being sociable in the park, gatherings, young people, couples. People being normal and carefree. Bloody young couples are triggering.

The grief and dislocation never seem to end. Even though I work, see friends, do IC, keep busy. Things we could be doing as a family, the fun places and things we used to explore, now not an option. I loved our family life when it was good.

All the advice about self care is great and on point but nothing compensates for the loss of collective purpose, the loss of the unit of four.

So we are in a period of 6 week no contact break from him. He texts to say should I send our son a birthday present. I say you decide. He says well i don't know what he is feeling about me right now. Deal with it arsehole. He says i don't know what you have told him. I can't even begin to reply. It is not what i told him, it's who you are that has spoken volumes, the aggressive secrecy, hiding where you live, the fact he saw an I love you messsage on your phone, the two GPS locations he saw you spending the night at cos your phones are linked goodness knows why. I say on text you don't know how either of your children are. You abandoned us all and cheated and lied. How can they have a real relationship if you won't even acknowledge the damage? I get a jaunty, evasive reply back saying tell them I'd love to see them when they are ready. So detached.

What do I do with that?

Why aren't I over this bastard?

I hope you have your children in therapy. I watched this play out in my own family. My dad had many issues stemming from a wretched childhood. There was no cheating and no addiction but there was irrational behavior. When my brother hit puberty he lost complete respect for our dad. That relationship never recovered. It made my brother have a difficult period of time trying to sort out what to feel for a father who had such huge feet of clay. Your son needs guidance to get through this.