SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

BraveSirRobin is right. You contradict yourself on many statements. Your betrayed wife is probably trying to sort through what actions and feelings are genuine and what are not. If my husband had that correspondence with another woman, I would feel incredibly betrayed. Your behaviour is not that of a man committed to his marriage. I sincerely hope your wife gets what she deserves and needs to make her feel cherished and safe. If you are up to the task of being a truly safe partner is still in question.

Thank you all for commenting.

The past few days were strange, to say the least.

Communication with BW broke down on several occasions, mostly because I was not being completely honest.

It is true, I was a bullshit artist, and you, ladies and gentlemen, are a hip crowd

I destroyed all the mementos. BW did not particularly ask for it, but I felt it was the only logical thing to do.

I wrote a letter which I am prepared to send G. BW approved the content, but does not wish me to send it just yet.

Maybe waiting to see if she will contact me on Christmas and NYE. I am not relishing on the prospect honestly, I'd rather get it over with, but it is not my decision to make. Nothing should be anymore, for good reason.

The timeline is taking a lot of time, as I am very short on available moments. But will make it through, I have to.

I don't think I care for G anymore. It is weird, but the feelings of resentment are too strong. I hate her for dragging me into this. I thought she was innocent, pure, kind. Far from it. I can see it clearly, in each one of her deceptive messages and sneaky baits.

She let me ruin my marriage, ruin my life. She toyed with an engaged and married man, while she herself was already taken.

She used me to get her little things done and to feel good. I was very much a fool.

I generally thought that I was capable of seeing girls who do these things. It is easier to notice it when they do it to others. It was hard to see when she did it to me. I am not really blaming her. Others did not fall for it, but I did, so it's on me.

Regrets and excuses will not help our marriage now.

BW is devastated on so many levels, yet I still have a friend in her, which is good, reassuring.

Even in this dilemma, she is the only one I got. (In person. Thank you good people for everything)

She has set the rules, I will try to follow them. She is stuck with me for the next 2 years (we are applying as a couple for immigration, working together to get the children to a safe country). I will make it work, I promise that I will try.

Yesterday was a good day, communication was clear, and I was being honest. I will keep it that way.

Will keep you good people informed.

Wish me strength and luck.

[This message edited by HellsHusband at 4:03 AM, December 17th (Thursday)]

HH,

For your BS peace of mind and your own progress you need to admit that G did not ‘drag you’ into anything. You jumped in with both feet knowing perfectly well what you were doing.

She also didn’t ‘use you’, she did not make you ruin your marriage you were involved in a mutually beneficial EA.

YOU chose to do all of these things, YOU chose to lie to your BS. YOU!

I can tell you from experience that each and every time you minimise your active participation in this affair you hurt your BS further.

It is my opinion that any WS cannot heal themselves and then hope to heal the marriage without fully owning their behaviours.

Considering how both you and your BS talk of the OW as a ‘sickly’ individual who you thought needed you to save them, I can’t imagine she forced you into anything.

You need to pull your head out of your arse, stop lying to yourself, but more importantly your BS and confess to every thought, feeling and action you participated in during the affair time period. This would include in my opinion a large period of time starting when you met G until your BS discovery.

Any and all lies either direct or by omission, about your thoughts, actions and feelings for G and any other inappropriate relationships need to be brought into the light.

Only then can healing start for you, your BS and if she chooses you, your marriage.

Grow up.

HH,

For your BS peace of mind and your own progress you need to admit that G did not ‘drag you’ into anything. You jumped in with both feet knowing perfectly well what you were doing.

She also didn’t ‘use you’, she did not make you ruin your marriage you were involved in a mutually beneficial EA.

YOU chose to do all of these things, YOU chose to lie to your BS. YOU!

I can tell you from experience that each and every time you minimise your active participation in this affair you hurt your BS further.

It is my opinion that any WS cannot heal themselves and then hope to heal the marriage without fully owning their behaviours.

Considering how both you and your BS talk of the OW as a ‘sickly’ individual who you thought needed you to save them, I can’t imagine she forced you into anything.

You need to pull your head out of your arse, stop lying to yourself, but more importantly your BS and confess to every thought, feeling and action you participated in during the affair time period. This would include in my opinion a large period of time starting when you met G until your BS discovery.

Any and all lies either direct or by omission, about your thoughts, actions and feelings for G and any other inappropriate relationships need to be brought into the light.

Only then can healing start for you, your BS and if she chooses you, your marriage.

Grow up.

@Timeforhelp

Thank you for your message.

I agree with what you said. And I believe this is what I was doing honestly.

I did say the following

I am not really blaming her. Others did not fall for it, but I did, so it's on me.

My point concerning her was that, even though I went in with both feet as you said, she did not try to stop it; she initiated it; she encouraged it, and she poked me when I would drift away.

So she is not innocent either.

BW wanted me to admit that G was not that sweet kind innocent girl I thought she was, oblivious of my flirting.

And now I can see that BW was right.

That was it really.

[This message edited by HellsHusband at 5:39 AM, December 17th (Thursday)]

If anything, your last post is a big step backwards IMHO.

I hate her for dragging me into this.

So, G “made” you cheat? As you had no part in it or had no opportunity to prevent it? She slowly led poor gullible and innocent you along and before you knew it BANG!

If that is true in any way or form, then the logical conclusion is that you can never be a safe partner to your wife. After all – someone with an even more ingenious way could “make” you cheat again. If this one managed to “drag” you into an affair and you at no point could stop or prevent it then even if you manage to avoid her tricks someone else might use some new voodoo on you.

A KEY factor – maybe the most important factor IMHO in recovery is accountability. Total accountability. You can neither be accountable for or be required to be accountable for actions or events not caused by you. While you hang on to even a slither of “she dragged me into this” you are directly claiming you can’t be accountable.

The key to recovery IMHO is to be totally honest. Including accepting that at each and every step along the path YOU had the ability to make another decision than the one you made.

When your spouse demands you tell her that you loved G…

Well… Did you? Tell your wife the truth and why. Explain what emotions you had towards G and what you thought. It might be love, it might be infatuation. Whatever. Just be truthful.

By repeatedly being truthful, consistent and honest. By being accountable. By acknowledging that the decision and the progress of your affair is totally 100% YOUR fault… That is how you have a chance of reconciling.

HH,

As much as you did state that you ‘weren’t really blaming her’, you then intimated that you fell for some kind of trick or behaviour you said others didn’t fall for. (If you truly believe she is ‘beneath you’, you falling for her tricks would be humiliating wouldn’t it?)

It wasn’t a trick, you were offered and you accepted an invitation to become involved with another woman!

She may have initiated it, but you chose NOT to refuse;

She may have encouraged it, but so did YOU;

She may have ‘poked you’ when she thought you were losing interest, YOU chose to continue.

Neither of you were innocent parties, she chose to have an affair WITH YOU, YOU chose to have an affair with her.

The only innocent parties in this situation are the BS’s.

They had no choice. You lied and hid information from the BS’s so they wouldn’t make a choice YOU wouldn’t like.

At each and every step of this affair YOU had a choice, now you need to own them.

I’m glad you are still actively responding to the people who post here. I hope it helps you and your BS heal.

[This message edited by Timeforhelp at 6:02 AM, December 17th (Thursday)]

@Timeforhelp

Anyone can twist my words around and explain it as they please. Yet I know what I meant.

Yes, I encouraged it. I took part in it. I chose to continue.

Neither of you were innocent parties, she chose to have and affair WITH YOU.

That was really my point.

@Bigger

You raised some serious points.

No, I am not blaming G for my affair, as I mentioned before.

I am not trying to minimize or gaslight or TT or whatever words you guys use around here.

I am an adult who's fully responsible for his actions.

Yes, I chose to have an affair. I fucked up.

Yes, I was mesmerized by G. My affection did fade with time, but it does not matter if it faded or not.

The road of redemption is long.

One thing is for sure, I will not fuck up again.

One thing is for sure, I will not fuck up again.

I would advise caution on saying such a statement. I assume by "fuck up" you mean you will not be unfaithful again? Or do you actually me you will never fuck up again? I said this to my BS, I meant I would never be unfaithful again and never fuck up on our recovery. I truly believed that. I have not been unfaithful again, but bloody hell have I fucked up! I had done no work on me, no work on fixing the anger, the default lies, the self justifications, the lies I was still believing. EVERY time something like this is uncovered, it knocks recovery back. Unfortunately you will fuck something up. You really will, we all have and some of us still do.

Maybe this sounds like semantics, and it probably is, but in affair recovery EVERYTHING you say and EVERYTHING you do will impact your BS. From not having another affair to saying you will buy a loaf of bread...ALWAYS do what you say you will. Importantly, only say what you know you can do and back it up. "I will not have another affair" because...I have learnt a great deal about myself, I have sufficient boundaries in place, I will be open and honest in every interaction I have with anyone of the opposite sex, you will have full access to my e-mails and phone etc etc. Semantics go out the window...If you then say "clearly what I meant when I said that was......" this is another fuck up! (Trust me, read that book and wearing the t-shirt)

You do genuinely come over as someone who is getting it, faster than I did so soon after d-day. Anything I post is not a criticism it is meant as a guide.

Boundaries

Open book policy to e-mails, phone calls, text messages, social media etc

Continuing to work on yourself

TALK TALK TALK

These will help you and BS.

HH,

Bulcy is spot on. Be accountable all the time. If you say you will get bread, be damn sure to get it, and do it without delay. If you go to the store and say you'll be 20 minutes and at 15 minutes you see it will take a bit longer you call or text to let you BW know that. Always answer her calls or texts ASAP.

As for your BW wanting you to see that your AP was a slimeball, my BW was a master at pointing out what a POS my AP was. I think that is part of our very astute BW's trying to get us to get our heads out of limerance (Look it up).

My AP lied to me as much or more as I lied to her, and my AP instigated a lot, she was playing her own game, BUT I was in there by my own will and being selfish about it and using her to my own ends. I understand that you may be trying to deride your AP here so as to take the rose coloured glasses off - that is not necessarily a bad thing as you can then start to see your own actions for what they are.

What you need to do is think about the way you relate this.

The words you write here do have a lot of 'not my fault' in them - that is what the other members here are pointing out. What they are trying to do is get you to the point of not deflecting - because if we see it here, you can be sure your BW is picking up on that too. We were all there at one time too, so we can see things for what they are.

Think of the timeline as almost a living document for the next while. You will be adding to it and changing it. That is the real benefit of a timeline. To help you see things and understand.

Hi. I have a few questions.

Yes, I chose to have an affair. I fucked up.

Yes, I was mesmerized by G. My affection did fade with time, but it does not matter if it faded or not.

Why did you choose to have an affair?

What were you looking for?

What do you mean by mesmerized? What are you doing so that the next time you are mesmerized by someone you don't start an affair with that person? Were you mesmerized from Day 1? Of course not. Yet you started down the path of an affair anyway so it's not really about that. So what is it?

The road of redemption is long.

Redemption from whom? You or your BW?

How do you get there? What does that road look like to you?

What steps do you need to take on that road to get to redemption?

She has set the rules, I will try to follow them.

What rules are those?

What do you mean, try to follow them? Why wouldn't you just follow them?

I hate her for dragging me into this.

each one of her deceptive messages and sneaky baits.

She let me ruin my marriage, ruin my life. She toyed with an engaged and married man

She used me

she did it to me.

Major blame shifting here.

You know, I've been told by many people that the AP was a player and practiced at what he did. And that might be true. I was not his first A. And I was also told that I was in a vulnerable point due to different things going on in my life during the time that led to my A. And all those people might be right. But so what? That has nothing to do with me and my responsibility. I think people used to tell me that to make me feel better or soften things for me. But it actually made me upset. Because by blaming the AP it took away my agency and my ownership of my A. And then I could how honestly tell my BH that I was going to work to be someone he can trust in the future and be a safe partner and healthier person for myself, for him and for my children if I didn't have 100% ownership of my A. Because by blaming the AP even a little bit I would be telling my BH that part of it wasn't my fault and if it wasn't my fault, what is there for me to work on? And how could he ever trust I wouldn't do this again?

Yesterday was a good day, communication was clear, and I was being honest.

You are frankly not being honest with your BW right now because you are not being honest with yourself. I don't understand how you can say you are being honest in the same post as all that blame shifting.

You have a lot of work to do on your road to redemption. Why not start now?

[This message edited by MrsWalloped at 8:17 AM, December 17th (Thursday)]

I see what you're getting at. It's important for you to wipe your eyes and understand that this person whom you regarded as sweet, innocent, and helpless was actually vain, manipulative, and happy to leverage perks out of your obsession with her. If she was feeling unattractive, unappreciated by her SO, or just plain bored, she hit up reliable ol' HH for some ego kibbles. It's not a good look for her, and I'm glad you're acknowledging that.

But that has absolutely nothing to do with her "luring" or "dragging" you in. From the story you describe yourself, you were the primary instigator here. Even if G had gone hard after you (and she didn't; she couldn't even be bothered to see you on her visits back), it wouldn't matter. Only one person in this interaction had the ability to throw your wife under the bus, and that was you.

Limerence has been mentioned to you several times in this thread. I don't know if you bothered to research it, but one of the key components of limerence is a desperate need for emotional reciprocation. G asking you for favors and compliments made you feel like she needed you, which fed your obsession with her. But then she'd also lose interest when she got what she wanted, and that left you groping for a high. I suspect that's when you would fall back to grooming your memento collection. It may be true that you went through periods of loss of interest in her, because there was nothing to trigger your limerence. But if she threw a line in the water, it sounds like you were always ready to take the bait.

This is much, much more complicated than just realizing that G has feet of clay and recommitting to your wife. There is a whole field of study out there about the neurological manifestations of limerence, the way it lights up your brain, and possible connections with OCD. You need to get your butt in gear and behave like sorting this out is a deadly serious business, not a dramatic story where you alternate playing the villain and victim roles.

[This message edited by BraveSirRobin at 4:11 AM, December 24th (Thursday)]

@Bulcy

Yes, I was generally thinking that I will not be unfaithful again.

But I do understand what you mean. There will be a lot of pressure on me, I will be continuously scrutinized by the BW. Anything I say or do can and will be used against me, so to speak.

Indeed, you did mention the book in your first reply, sadly I could not acquire it yet. I will be able to get it starting next month.

Semantics were a real issue soon after D-day; I couldn't fully understand how important using specific words was to my BW (i.e. beautiful instead of not ugly, etc.) but I am past that now. I will try to be specific with everything I tell my BW.

Thank you for your kind words and your support.

@MrCleanSlate

It was very difficult for me to accept that G was not who I think she was. BW really had to go through hundreds upon hundreds of messages, dissect them, try to have me see it from a different perspective. It was a difficult journey, but BW was successful, despite my early resistance.

Just to make something clear. What I write here is for the good folks to read and process, to track my development, and advise accordingly. It is not addressed to my BW. I am trying to ignore the fact that she might be reading this.

Anyway, my BW already knows the essence of most that I try to tell here.

With that being out of the way, I felt the need to explain my new stance regarding G, especially since I was almost idolizing her mere 10 days ago. It was not my intention to divert the culpability towards G.

Yes, I've been going through the timeline back and forth. I already have the structure: a complete online conversation spanning 6 years. Now, I am filling the void.

I know that all of you are only trying to open my eyes to certain things, even though some of the replies might seem intimidating at first glance. I understand now what Bulcy meant by saying that some new posters leave very quickly when the reality of some responses hits home. But I am not disheartened, on the contrary, each opposing opinion is an opportunity for more personal growth.

@MrsWalloped

Why did you choose to have an affair?

What were you looking for?

I am trying to find out. By writing how I felt each day during the affair, I am trying to understand what was going on with me. It is a long process. An IC would certainly help, though I do not think this will be possible yet. Maybe someday I will see one.

What do you mean by mesmerized? What are you doing so that the next time you are mesmerized by someone you don't start an affair with that person? Were you mesmerized from Day 1? Of course not. Yet you started down the path of an affair anyway so it's not really about that. So what is it?

Sometimes, you know a person for a long time. You two are not really close, but you know they exist. They work at your office, they go to your school, they attend the same church. Something like that. Until one day, you realize that behind that shell, there's someone else you did not know existed. So you're mesmerized. You get attached. You want to know more about him. You get carried away.

Redemption from whom? You or your BW?

How do you get there? What does that road look like to you?

What steps do you need to take on that road to get to redemption?

Redemption for me of course. I am at fault here.

I want to regain my BW's trust that I shattered. I want her to respect me again, to lean on me when she needs support. I want to help her forget the pain I cause.

Will it be difficult? Yes, a lot. It will be a long road. We're only getting started.

What rules are those?

What do you mean, try to follow them? Why wouldn't you just follow them?

The usual. Do timeline. Read books. Always be honest.

You should really cut me some slack it is a way of speaking. I will try my best to follow them.

Major blame shifting here.

I understand it would appear so, but I already addressed this concept multiple times.

You are frankly not being honest with your BW right now because you are not being honest with yourself. I don't understand how you can say you are being honest in the same post as all that blame shifting.

Respectfully, I do not agree with that. I believe I was honest with my BW, you were not there with us. As for my very recent posts here, I was being true and honest with myself. I did not do any blame-shifting, maybe only a small attempt of blame-sharing if you want, just to show the good friends here what I think of the AP now. I did not have another way to put it really without it appearing like blaming her, so you'll have to take my word for it

You have a lot of work to do on your road to redemption. Why not start now?

Yes, I do! Wish me luck. I'm gonna need it.

@BraveSirRobin

Funny you mentioned it, but I do exhibit little signs of OCD. Not the diagnosable ones, no, only little obsessions with certain things/behaviors.

Perfectionism if I may say.

I did research Limerence, though not really in-depth. I will take a closer look.

Thank you. I do agree with what you said. I think more or less it rings true.

Respectfully, I do not agree with that. I believe I was honest with my BW, you were not there with us. As for my very recent posts here, I was being true and honest with myself. I did not do any blame-shifting, maybe only a small attempt of blame-sharing if you want, just to show the good friends here what I think of the AP now. I did not have another way to put it really without it appearing like blaming her, so you'll have to take my word for it

You think this because of this:

I am trying to find out. By writing how I felt each day during the affair, I am trying to understand what was going on with me. It is a long process. An IC would certainly help, though I do not think this will be possible yet. Maybe someday I will see one.

Frankly, NO ONE is to blame but you. It's difficult to see all the ways that is true and take full accountability until you understand how all this came to be.

Look, the person I had an affair with was a serial cheater. Very experienced in knowing how to get people to hook up with him. I can recognize that without blaming him for my actions.

Like BSR said, we all have to come to terms with breaking the idolization of the AP apart. I think this is kind of where you are.

Generally speaking for a long time most WS are really just in damage control mode. This is greatly at odds with self-discovery and accountability. It takes some time to realize you are not in control of the outcome. The only outcome you can control is how you deal with your own shit moving forward.

So, the process that you need to be on is this (and I am going into this a bit because you must not be able to afford IC? Is that the reason you say some day??):

Understand the reason you did this is because you wanted to. You felt entitled to it. You felt that you deserved it. You were addicted to it.

Getting underneath that are more the hows. How did you feel comfortable? What were your justifications?

In IC they would trace some of your character development and have you look at that. Some of it comes from Family of Origin (FOO). Think about how you learned to lie. Think about the idea that your integrity didn't really include thinking cheating was wrong in black and white terms, rather than the grey you are making it.

What did you tell yourself about why you deserved it?

Look this might sound harsh, I am not trying to condemn you. I just want you to see that you need to be looking at yourself very critically. Self compassion can come later. By trying to cut corners on this (and you are, you just do not realize you are) this is going to make your situation much worse. And, outside of the marital situation, this is an opportunity to rise up in your own character, become more than who you are right now.

I had to answer these questions honestly, it won't all come today. And, you don't have to answer them for me here. These are the things you need to be contemplating, journaling, and soul searching on.

One of the values of SI and particularly the Wayward forum is that there are WS's who post and offer advice and support, but also hold other WS's accountable and call out red flags and other behaviors for what they are.

It's never fun being forced to look in the mirror and know you are the type of person who hurt the person you promised to love and cherish more than anyone else, yet that's the unavoidable truth.

I am not a BS. I am a WW. And I asked you detailed questions for a reason. I will simply point out that none of your answers were specific. They were general answers with no real depth or insight. Basically, platitudes.

My advice to you would be to move past the general and get down and dirty. The work is hard and there's no getting there by floating in the clouds. You literally have to roll in the mud. Or not. Your choice.

HH: I'm a BW and just want to offer some encouragement. I'm not a WS, but, like any human, I've made some really bad choices in my life that have hurt others.

You are getting some excellent "tough love" here. The folks offering their advice here have been in the trenches of infidelity and IMHO, their comments are really on point.

AND

It's difficult for anyone to really accept and come to terms with their own demons and resulting behavior. It's SUPER hard to see our harmful actions w/o excuses/justification, even just a tiny bit lurking in the back of our minds. That tiny bit can really block our own healing and path forward.

Owning our choices - without attributing ANY blame or fault or responsibility to another or to "circumstances" - is super duper hard. I know this is still a work in progress for my own past behavior.... Yet, I do believe with persistence and dedication, we can all "get there" and find our path out of that dark hole and into a new way of thinking and living and acting.

Godspeed.

Thank you all for your replies. What everybody is writing has been very insightful.

I admit I am not really adept in the arts of couples' recovery and healing process. This is my first (and hopefully last) experience of this kind.

I am also clueless in terms of emotional quotient (or so my BW insists on). In contrast, my BW was top of her class in the EQ test results, so you can really see how frustrating she can get because of my ignorance.

Some of you people have been in therapy for years; you've seen hundreds of cases on these forums and you can immediately "get" what someone is meaning and how he might be feeling at different recovery stages.

@hikingout

No, I can afford IC. The issue is with the covid lockdown, as we are alternating between work and babysitting. I Will see if I can find someone available on the weekend, as I am not really sure an online IC will do much good.

No, I can afford IC. The issue is with the covid lockdown, as we are alternating between work and babysitting. I Will see if I can find someone available on the weekend, as I am not really sure an online IC will do much good.

My limited experience of IC is that it really does not matter if the session is face to face or online. In fact, it is the complete opposite of your concern. We had face to face counseling and the counselor was awful. because of Covid, I went online and found a really good person who lives 100 miles away. With face to face you're limited to whoever is local.

That said, there a whole load of people online. I would assume a lot of them are completely useless. With more choice comes another problem of quality. But do have a look.

No, I can afford IC. The issue is with the covid lockdown, as we are alternating between work and babysitting. I Will see if I can find someone available on the weekend, as I am not really sure an online IC will do much good.

This is what I mean about getting deadly serious. Your wife is deeply, deeply suffering, and when experienced people tell you that IC is crucial in giving you the tools to help with that, your response is "Yeah, I have the money, but it's not really convenient, and I doubt it will help much." Can you imagine, if G had been in an almost suicidal state of pain and someone told you how to help her, that you would have taken this approach? For G, you dropped everything when she had a hangnail. For your wife, whom you betrayed at the most fundamental level, it's "I'll be able to order that book next month."

I don't know how to be clearer than this. You have to treat this situation as you would if your child was diagnosed with cancer. You have to spare no time, spare no expense, and tear down every fucking obstacle in your way. She is giving everything she has in her, and if you aren't willing to give all that and more, then the only honorable thing to do is admit it and let her go. Then she can find someone who values her in a way you do not.

[This message edited by BraveSirRobin at 9:21 AM, December 18th (Friday)]