SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

SeeYaIamOut,

Emails only

Emails are a good idea. You will have written documentation of everything discussed should you need it.

pertain to household business and kids

This also is a good idea as to keep everything as business like as possible. Things will change in the future and this is all you may want to deal with right now.

No relationship stuff will be discussed

While relationship issues will have to be dealt with in the future if you do not want to discuss it now that is fine.

If she breaks those rules. I stop communication.

If she starts spamming me with emails. I stop communication

There is absolutely nothing wrong with setting these boundaries and will tell you a lot if she is not will to follow them.

Any thoughts on this approach? Good? Bad? I'm scrambling right now

Whatever you need is what you do. Understand that things will change and what you need will change but you just keep doing what you need for you and the children.

Seriously this is a shit show I absolutely wish would go away

I know I absolutely wish would go away is only an expression but wishing it away won't work.

Keep moving through it and know you will be alright in the end no matter where that takes you.

I'm really not sure what to do about the meeting request.

First, I can't tell from your post what your wife did (3 years ago) to prove to you that she understood the inappropriateness of her behavior, rebuild your trust - and earn a second chance.

However, a remorseful spouse would among other things feel disgusted at the sight of the OM. All the anger she directed at you should have been directed at the OM. At the very least, her drunken speech revealed an absence of anger and disgust.

IMO her therapist will advocate for her and attempt to minimize her drunken speech as not representative of how she feels about the OM.

Thank you again for your responses. I am having an issue with learning how to quote so I’ll just address some comments directly here.

-I’ve drafted an email regarding rules of communication based on my earlier draft and a couple of suggestions from others. I’m going to wait until Monday after my daughter leaves before I send it.

-Lawyer has already briefed me on the worst case scenario. Minor son turns eighteen at the end of January. What he wants as far as where to live will carry a great deal of weight.

-BIL being a lawyer is not a major concern. He works real estate law in another state. Worse he could do is a really good referral.

-Physical altercation. I agree it was not a good idea. But water under the bridge now and in no way have I nor do I intend to promote it as anything but a stupid act. That will be last I address that due to numerous direct messages I have received on both sides of the issue. Concentrating on that, whether you agree with the act or not, is not helping me or my children or our situation. No offense Bigger I do appreciate and understand your take. It has unfortunately garnered a lot more attention than it deserved in the grand scheme of things and I really wished I had left it out.

-As far as the meeting, I am still a no. But, I have not passed that on. The reason is in my brief update below.

-As far as giving detail about our reconciliation process over the past three years, I omitted the details because the post was already too long. Briefly, we did everything I thought we could. IC, she changed jobs though she had close to a zero chance of seeing him again unless the company used that vendor again (maybe I need to clarify “vendor” as I am using it in this case). We did separate for a brief period. It was only twelve days but she moved to the den for about four months at my insistence. She went no contact. We started over and I thought worked through the hardest parts and though it was still tough we were making progress. On the surface there really appeared to be remorse and healing taking place on both sides. If it helps I can go into further detail later.

Let me explain his being a “vendor”. His wife or ex-wife now, owns a catering company. She does the cooking and planning etc. He helped her part-time. He does sales or something full time. I want to say insurance. His job was on the day of the events is to oversee logistics, transportation, supplies, etc. so his wife can oversee the food prep. STBXW is in the medical field. Her place of employment is a specialty clinic. Think multiple doctor’s, treatment areas, three story building, 60-75 employees, etc. ..They celebrate the anniversary of the opening of this clinic each year and use it as an employee appreciation day. His wife was the caterer for two years in a row. That’s how she met him. The first year. Then again the second year...and the rest is history. I chose the word vendor because my own company would consider this a vendor.

Last night in our house was very quiet and very peaceful. And it was a relief. The three of us had a good dinner and of all things played some board games. I had no idea there was a Titanic game and it was surprisingly fun. There was no talk about their mother. I followed their lead. They did not bring it up so neither did I.

This morning I got financials in order for my attorney. There are no secrets regarding our financial assets. I have had control of her personal accounts, as well as mine, since the first D-Day three years ago. She has had access to mine as well but I took care of all transactions. My account passwords were changed Sunday evening after I left. I have placed instructions in the email that she needs to change hers passwords. What is paid by whom will stay the same unless the lawyer changes it after he sees it. The only contention I see is I am currently paying the mortgage but not living there. The lawyer might have an issue with me continuing to do that. I’ll follow his lead. I also asked his advice about saying no to the meeting with the therapist, while I was on the phone with him this morning. Typical lawyers speak but basically, it might be good to continue not to commit either way for now.

Personally, I continue to eat right and exercise. I found out how beneficial that was three years ago. Sleep has been rough but not too bad. Not a dinker or drug user so neither of those are an issue. I plan on getting some work done today and finalize some plans for the weekend with my kids.

That’s it. Thankfully nothing traumatic or earth shattering.

Like I started my post:

SI is a lot about learning. Not only for the original poster, but also for others that are reading and trying to get a grasp on THEIR situation. I want to address this issue and the response it got

You got away with the violence and I’m glad for you on that.

But anyone reading your story to learn from it needs to realize and understand the risk it placed you in.

SeeYa,

I read a lot here but don't post often. Your story jumped out at me because my children were similar ages to yours when my marriage broke up.

All I really want to say is, yes to counselling, being their anchor, extended family support if you have it, keeping the lines of communication open with yourself and them. But don't be surprised if despite all that support being in place, they are still dealing with some fallout a couple of years down the line. This is huge for them to process and will take a long time, with some big hurdles likely to appear.

We are three years down the line and mine are still not in any kind of communication with their father. They are very angry with him and unfortunately he has done nothing to address this. That is the part over which we have no control. Their relationship with their other parent is theirs. Like you, I have encouraged them to be open to repairing their relationship with their father, but it has to come from both sides. If their other parent doesn't work at it there is nothing we can do about that.

It's a terrible blow to children to find out that their parent can behave like this, it undermines their core beliefs about the integrity of their family. They will get through it, but if it stutters along for a while just be ready for that.

They sound lucky to have you, you have a great handle on the situation. They will take note of your coping skills in this crisis and that will stand to them in later life.

I would like to address the therapy part of your situation, because we all have our own soapboxes, and this is one I have been standing on recently.

Hopefully it will help you with your decision to see or not see your wife's therapist - and I advise you not to.

TLDR: Lots of therapist suck, cheaters are liars who lie to their therapists just as much as they lie to you, and they attempt to utilize the therapist and therapy process to manipulate the betrayed spouse into eating the shit sandwich.

***

I don't see therapy as particularly helpful, and often very harmful, when it comes to dealing with cheaters/liars/betrayers.

First - lots of therapists just plain suck. They are not Navy Seals who are trained to be the absolute best, ruthlessly screened and selected so only the finest remain. They are regular average people with some certifications and a degree.

So I would not stake the state of my life and happiness on the ability of a therapist to somehow turn around a cheater who has lied to, betrayed, hurt and deceived, their spouse with intent and forethought.

Further, I have yet to come across an individual therapist who also doesn't offer marriage/couples counseling so the common wisdom here of "don't see a marriage counselor, they'll blame the betrayed spouse, get your cheater to see an individual counselor!" doesn't take that into account.

I am not saying that there is no such thing as a therapist who only does MC or IC, but it is not the norm in my experience, so one can expect the same philosophies to be promulgated by the therapist regardless of whether they are seeing one person or two.

***

Even more importantly, therapy for all kinds of issues, but I will restrict this statement to cheaters, cannot be successful unless the person seeking therapy is honest and truthful within themselves as to why they are seeking it, and in turn must be truthful with the therapist with regard to their behaviors and actions.

They must truly want to reform their behaviors, not just "get out of trouble".

This is not generally the case with cheaters. The primary thing cheaters want to do is "get out of trouble". So lying to the therapist is extremely common, and we can be pretty sure it happened in your case.

Basically, your wife tried to "white knuckle" her way through reconciliation, bullshitting her way through therapy so she could check that box as well as the other "stop being a cheater" boxes.

Internally she felt different from the nonsense she slathered on everybody who would listen. She never admitted what was actually true, that she had strong feelings for this scumbag who got everything he deserved (By the way, showing up at your door strikes me as pretty aggressive, and many people might consider that a threatening situation where one might need to defend themselves.) and that is why it all came out when you ran into him at the party.

Ask, your self this: Why did she disappear from the party and start drinking herself into oblivion?

Was it because she felt sad that she caused you pain? No. It was because she felt sad that she saw "The one that got away" and was stuck with you. In her own words she said this.

I am sorry for the harshness of this statement, but you should believe exactly what she told you. As the saying goes: "A drunk person's actions are a sober person's thoughts."

***

So now, she wants you to visit her therapist. Why? Who would that benefit?

I would guess they plan to outline her "whys" to you. "Learning your whys" is often positioned as a positive exercise in the healing process for a couple where cheating has occurred.

Personally, I don't give a shit about the whys of somebody who decided to betray me! However, I do agree that it may be a positive exercise for the cheater - if they are honest - which is not likely in my experience.

I find that "the whys" are very often used as a device to attempt to placate the betrayed spouse: "Oh! Well that's WHY you decided to fuck someone outside of our marriage! Well, now we can go back to being a strong couple and heal together."

And that is what your wife and her therapist are most likely planning: A last-ditch attempt to suck you back in with a litany of the problems she has and is facing, and how much she really loves you but she was not able to overcome her demons which were caused by "something something bullshit".

So I advise you not to go, and I probably didn't need to because you were planning not to!

[This message edited by faithfulman at 6:56 PM, September 25th (Friday)]

Back on topic to the question you are actually asking, I think you are doing a fine job and are doing all you can do to help your children:

- Supporting them

- Not trashing their mother to them

- Showing them love, kindness, and patience

- Giving them a peaceful place to reside and sort out their thoughts

- Helping them seek out therapeutic support (This is a situation where therapy might possibly be helpful to the person seeking it)

Outside of that, there is not much you can control as far as their internal struggle, I am sorry to say.

But you're doing an excellent job thus far!

Keep on keeping on brother!

[This message edited by faithfulman at 1:04 PM, September 25th (Friday)]

You're doing amazing. You've had years to process and prepare for something that might break R and that's what's happened. I'm not saying that this isn't going to be hard, it absolutely is, but it's not the trauma of the original Dday.

Getting your kids IC is vital for them. My kids all knew about the A on Dday and it was wide out and in the open at the start. Though that wasn't my intention or instincts, that's what happened. Anyway, it helped in certain ways but was obviously incredibly painful. I think that kids can feel that an A is a form of abandonment. Because it is. And that is deeply traumatic. Having the space for them to process their mixed emotions, independent of both parents is crucial to their recovery. You aren't the only one for whom this is a shit sandwich.

As for meeting with your STBXW's IC... I don't think you owe her anything. The only reason I would consider doing it in your position is it might help stabilize your children's mother. And even that is a questionable motive because sooner or later she's going to have to right her own ship regardless of your support. You are entirely within your rights to self protect and do you.

Big hug because I know how hard this is.

As per faithfulman.

Just be there when they need to talk. With #1 DS might pay to monitor his school grades. I am unsure of your system there but he most likely is in his final year of secondary education.

Did you think STBX harboured such resentments during your and her recovery from her infidelity?

One day at a time

The three of us had a good dinner and of all things played some board games. I had no idea there was a Titanic game and it was surprisingly fun.

There are actually at least a half dozen board games on the subject-- most of them involving running around the ship and saving passengers. Sound familiar? I find games to be incredibly therapeutic bonding with my (grown) kids whenever they drop by. They are still addicted to Cards Against Humanity, I find it a little repetitive and over the top, but what the hey, why not. It does get us howling.

Two points, and I promise I won't belabor the fight issue. I got into a dustup with an unfortunate relative by marriage about 12 years ago. I'm a very peaceful guy, but the dude is toxic and was advancing on my (then) wife menacingly, so I got between them, he pushed it, so I decked him, right in front of his own son. So, yeah, I know exactly what you mean about being embarrassed and regretful that it went where it did. For a long time after he claimed I had broken his ribs and was threatening to sue, but I think his son shamed him out of it. I was worried because I had a clearance to maintain, and I dodged a bullet there. Yes, he was that vindictive, but not the brightest tool in the shed. I don't blame your motivation one bit, but it was indeed a near run thing! I hope it doesn't come back to haunt you.

I read your post on Reddit and I remember thinking that it was odd that he knew where you lived. It was also odd that she stated "now he won't come near me" when drunk.. that would indicate there was some communication, possibly, after you gave him a beat down?

I am not defending you but I understand you. We always like to think we are rational humans but when we feel threatened we either freeze, flee or fight. In this instance he boldly came to your home after your wife. It felt threatening to you so you fought. My husband says “a man’s home is his castle” is real. It might be two rooms or two hundred but it’s his to defend. From what you wrote he got the message loud and clear.

So, what next. Take care of your health, your kids and your home, wherever it is.

Good luck.

In vino veritas,.....”In wine, there is truth"

It sucks now, but in the long run it’s good that you know her true feelings.

You said the next day that she was in disbelief that she had said those things. IMO.... She was in disbelief that she actually said them out loud. Up until that point they had just been in her head.

I’m sure she is very upset that the truth got out and that she is now going to suffer consequences for it. Nobody likes to be held accountable.

Hopefully over time, your kids anger will start to subside. And they can reestablish some kind of relationship with her mother. It will be interesting to see how they react when she starts dating again. Especially if she decides to try to get back with her lover.

[This message edited by ramius at 12:05 PM, September 26th (Saturday)]

I don’t condone violence. It can get out of hand and people could get seriously hurt or be killed. It creates more issues.

However, here we have a situation where an AP turns up to the BS house. Violates his sanctuary and wants to screw his wife. What would most men do? I think I would have reacted the same way. It doesn’t mean it is right but place yourself in the BS position. It would be very hard not to resist landing in an upper cut. The AP causes emotional stress to a BS and his family, then in a brazen manner walks straight up to the BS’ house to do what? How much more pain does a BS have to go through? How much more humiliation? As I underlined, I don’t condone violence because the results can be very serious but let’s understand why the BS would feel threatened and perceive the AP’s visit a dangerous situation for him and his family. He’s defending his home, albeit by the sounds of it, it went overboard. It’s was excessive force.

[This message edited by Mene at 9:12 PM, September 26th (Saturday)]

Then she says, "I can't believe you forced me to give up the love of my life. The only man that made me feel special. You beat him up and now he won't ever come near me."

Wasn’t that the point? I bet he’ll think twice about having another affair with a married woman. Again, I don’t condone violence but can understand why a BS would resort to a physical altercation with an AP who visited his home.

Also, it’s very concerning she make that point to you. She clearly has feelings for him. Alcohol lowers inhibitions. She showed her true emotions there.

I bet your kids will be fine. They are old enough to understand the cause and effect of cheating on a marriage. Their reactions sound pretty healthy, although I am no expert. And, you sound like you are a good dad.

Just wanted to let everyone know I am reading your replies and really appreciate the advice and support.

Not much to update. The kids and I spent yesterday morning hiking a beautiful canyon state park so I'm sore as hell. It was a blast and helped work of nervous energy and anger. Briefly came back home rested a couple of hours then they took me out for supper and to an escape room. Never been to one and rather enjoyed it.

Did meet my neighbors Friday afternoon. Nice couple appear to be in their early to mid thirties with kids. I mention it because I was still wearing my wedding ring and the wife said she looked forward to meeting my "wife" soon. I just said she was not in the picture anymore. Took the ring off after we parted company. Just thought it was funny I was still putting on my wedding band and never realized it.

Kids have made the decision to visit their grandmother today and did say they might check in on their mother. Daughter did not act like it was a decision she was happy about so I'm guessing she's going for my son.I encouraged them to go and just take things slow. I also asked them to be respectful.

I'll try to address a couple of posts that piqued my interest later. I'm sore as hell and going to relax a little. I'm not as young as I used to be.

I’ve heard it said the number one cause of injury an older man, just thinking they’re younger men.

faithfulman asked:

So now, she wants you to visit her therapist. Why? Who would that benefit?

I've thought about it. She needs someone to prop her up. And it would only benefit her. I have to talk to her at some point about other issues so I'll give her the opportunity then to tell me whatever it is she needs to tell me. Or more than likely just have her write it out and email it. Yeah I like that better.

KingofNothing asked:

I read your post on Reddit and I remember thinking that it was odd that he knew where you lived. It was also odd that she stated "now he won't come near me" when drunk.. that would indicate there was some communication, possibly, after you gave him a beat down?

I am leaning in that direction also.

Mene said:

She clearly has feelings for him. Alcohol lowers inhibitions. She showed her true emotions there

Yep

ramius stated:

I’ve heard it said the number one cause of injury an older man, just thinking they’re younger men.

This one preaches the truth.

I'm in a good way this afternoon. A lot of normal the past day and a half has helped to push the emotions aside quite a bit. Spent the better part of the day with a good friend catching up on some college football I missed yesterday and talked some hard truths. Started a journal Friday night and that is helping.

I dithered about replying to this, SeeYa. I am afraid of dispensing bad advice. But since nobody else seems to be raising the possibility, I guess here I am.

A possible reason she might want you to talk to the therapist: If she's been seeing this therapist regularly, the therapist might have been exploring this with her. Meaning, the therapist might have been asking questions like "do you feel like this was a chance you had that was ruined" or "do you feel like your husband is a brutal man" as part of the therapy. Stuff that could have gotten into her unconscious thought, even though it's not really her thing.

If you google "reddit open marriage therapist called off" you'll come upon a tragic reddit story that I was reminded of in reading yours. Though it does end up okay, if you click the username.

So this may or may not be true, but I just wanted to raise the possibility, since you've put in so much work over the years, and since the call for not going to the therapist is near unanimous here.

FINAL UPDATE HERE?

Based on the past 24 hour I have decided to stop updating here. Anymore news probably needs to be under the Divorce/Separation forum. Does this thread get moved? Do you just start a new one over there when I feel a need to update?

After a long night of talking to my children individually I decided we needed to get on the same page so I contacted their mother. We discussed how to help the kids and she had some good suggestions and so we agreed to get some referrals for our son and encourage him to talk to someone. I even agreed to a family type counseling if that was the route we needed to go. She asked if I would turn my phone back on in case of an emergency with him and I agreed and even gave her my address. Of course, under the condition she did not abuse the ability to contact me so easily and would not come over unless invited. I thought that was only fair since he has expressed a desire to stay with me for the foreseeable future and she should know where he is staying.

I sent her the email and she read it while I was on the phone. She agreed to communicating this way as the default means. She asked about me meeting with her and the therapist and I told her no. If she wanted to say anything, put it in an email and I’ll read it. We will go from there. She felt like that something would get lost in reading it as opposed to her telling me face-to-face. I just blurted out I already suspect that she is going to tell me she had additional contact with him after D-Day. She cried and apologized and said she should have told me. I told her to write it in the email. I hung up and at 3 AM, according to the time stamp, she sent me the email.

I’ll summarize the email I guess. After she left work early the day I got arrested, a female coworker came by to check on her. She told this person what had happened. The whole story. One thing led to another and the girl offered her phone to my STBXW to call him after she (STBXW) expressed concern about the AP physically. He was all lovey and heartbroken and called her the “love of his life” (sound familiar) and he was begging her to run away with him. She told him she was confused and she could not do that right now, In her words, she was an “emotional blob not thinking right”. They hung up eventually and the coworker agreed to keep it quiet.

The next day she claims she came to her senses and reaches out to marriage counseling services at our church. It's considered a meg-church and has professional counseling available. Later in the week she goes to them and tells them everything that happened except not about the phone call. They tell her the usual which includes no contact with AP and that breaking that contact post D-Day could cause any attempt to reconcile to fail. She’s in panic mode about the call and decides not to tell anyone about it. The following week while I am not at home, while she is at work the coworker tells her that AP is blowing up her phone and she needs to talk to him. She claims she does it to make him stop trying to get in contact with her. Unfortunately, to her surprise he is pissed. I had sent his wife screenshots of the Facebook messages and blown up his world without warning my STBX. So he’s upset, yelling and crying about his marriage and me beating him up and all he did was “fall in love with a woman he can never go near again”. She hangs up and never speaks or sees him again until that Saturday night at the party.

As for the drunken rant, she has no idea why she said what she said. She saw me looking at him and was scared I’d get into trouble again. She was afraid our reconciliation was going to take a hit. And, " to my surprise, shock and disgust, I felt a physical attraction to him briefly when I first saw him”. Her words. She then says she just went blank. Had no idea how to handle it and started grabbing drinks. A lot of apologies and begging. And some shit from her therapist about not properly mourning the end of that relationship due to how fast it ramped up and ended. And guilt associated with not telling me or her therapist about the two phone calls. The resentment toward me she understood and tried to explain. She felt that we had reached a plateau that we were not progressing in our reconciling over the last year. That I was not fully committed and she admits that she was frustrated and angry about that. She KNEW she wanted us to work out and grow old together but I was still distant in some ways. She wanted to have that talk with me for over a month and kept putting it off and then the party happened. She feels it was just an unfortunate chain of events that came together and exploded. And to her point she had sent me a text asking about us setting some time aside to discuss our marriage. I have the text. But we never got around to it.

Anyway, my reply was simply, “You lied for three years. How do I know you're not lying now?”

Her reply was, “That’s the problem I found myself in when you came back home. If I told you the truth how could I prove it was only phone calls. I could only do then what I am doing now. Tell you and pray you believe me because I have no proof. But emotions were so raw and I knew how bad I had messed up. I did not think we could take another blow to our marriage and survive. I’m sorry I kept this from you then. But that is the truth. All of it.”

So that’s it. Divorce is still on the table. Way on the table. But now that all the emotions have begun to clear, I am not as angry and more open to seeing this from her perspective. An actual physical separation for a period of time will definitely take place. We were separated in our home for four months following D-Day. I need actual distance right now. How long? I have no idea. At least six months. I am waiting on word from my attorney on a possible legal separation plan I have been thinking about. Once I hear from him I’ll post an update in the Divorce/Separation forum.

Thank you for letting me rant and post this train wreck here. It has really helped me to clear my mind. I have what I believe I came for and that is a clear plan to assist my children and clarity of thought regarding my future whatever the outcome. I'm not leaving. But other than answering any questions and hearing your take on the above, I see nothing that fits the category of "Just Found Out" coming my way.

**edited a timeline mistake

[This message edited by SeeYaIamOut at 5:09 PM, September 28th (Monday)]