SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Our marriage was not perfect. I'm responsible for 50% of that.

This gets said a lot on SI. Gently, I'm not sure it's true and increasingly I suspect that it's not.

Increasingly I suspect that most BS's were in good marriages (which are never perfect) and rarely in bad marriages, but that the bulk of any problems in these marriages -- once a BS has time to really reflect -- can probably be laid at the feet of the WS.

That's why the WS cheated, because they are broken people who are weak and who were dragging the marriage down by more than 50 percent. They were lazy about the relationship and I believe most of the time, a BS was contributing more than 50 percent of the good stuff propping up a lazy, weak partner.

A WS's adultery is an outgrowth of the same weaknesses and emotional vampirism they were bringing into the marriage in the first place. Something to think about.

She's not showing complete remorse - she's still talking to the guy.

Her actions tell you the affair is still ongoing.

She is saying she's sorry and she does appear horrified. I think you are correct that she doesn't think that.

Just words which are meaningless. Self protection mode. That's all.

Wake up

I just sent my friend the email.

The people that matter in your life will not think less of you for your wife's infidelity. They will rally behind you and your kids.

You don't have to be 'chipper' around her. Business like with an angry edge is preferred. Monotone is fine (especially since you won't break down).

First you have to start looking for time to yourself (which you currently aren't because you're in husband mode). You don't have to go out for extended periods of time every evening. Even an 1 1/2 hour works as long as it's a mystery to your wife.

She still calls him. She will probably see him this weekend - the premise I'm sure she'll tell me is that she was going to break up with him face to face because that's how she gets closure. Of course they'll sleep together and continue behind my back.

First, let me remind you that recovery after intimate betrayal is a process. What you feel today may not be what you feel six months from now. Toward that end, your best bet is to act in ways which keep your options open. The kneejerk reaction for most of us after DDay is to try to return to the status quo, so we end up making promises which commit us to R too early. Try to keep your options open.

That holds only IF the WS has given up the AP. There's nothing to save until that happens. So you have nothing to lose which is not already lost by laying down the ultimatum. On DDay, I swung for the fence on divorce. My WH was shell-shocked but agreeable. Then, he started doing the math. He started realizing what he was actually losing... half his income and assets, half his retirement, all of his children's respect, not to mention that of his family and friends, and ME, who had loved and protected him for over 30 years. So, within a few days he asked for time to prove himself, which I granted. He used that time to try and let the OW down easy or whatever, but the bottom line is that NC was broken. When I found out, he had about 30 seconds to decide whether he was in or out. I wasn't playing. It wasn't some kind of gambit. I meant it... and he knew it.

Cheaters have their heads firmly up their own backsides while they're cheating. It's a fantasy which has an almost addictive hold over them. Imagine it like a large bubble. You stick a pin in that bubble. Let her know that she can have her old high school boyfriend or she can have a CHANCE at saving her family dynamic. Not next month or next week, not even tomorrow. Today. Now. And if she balks, if she breaks NC, you start calling attorneys, fill out the paperwork, and sue her for divorce on grounds of adultery. You file for exclusive use of the home and temporary custody of the children. You make it so that you and your kids aren't having to give up anything that you've worked for just because she flaked out.

You don't have to be nasty. You don't have to argue or fight. But you do have to hold your ground. Whatever she's going to do, she will do regardless of your ultimatum. You're just minimizing the damage by drawing a line in the sand. Cheaters who are inclined to leave, leave no matter what you do. They just drag you through hell for a good long while before they get around to it.

Strength to you.

The people that matter in your life will not think less of you for your wife's infidelity. They will rally behind you and your kids.

I'm not quite sure that's the dominant thing - I'm a very private person in general. I also try not to burden others with my issues because, while growing up, I had to comfort my grandmother every day. She cried all the time and I was 5-9 and didn't know any better. It was basically torturous to me and I resolved to not do that to anyone else. I think I went too far though. That said, yes, there is a shame involved.

You don't have to be 'chipper' around her. Business like with an angry edge is preferred. Monotone is fine (especially since you won't break down).

I've been sending myself stuff on my phone so I can reference it. So that I can look it over several times a day. One of those things is the 180.

18. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment? Make yourself be someone they would want to be around. Not a moody, needy, pathetic individual but a self assured individual secure in the knowledge that they have value.

This is where I was coming from. I'm not sure I can do happiness/contentment. In the future when I've dealt a little more with all of this I think I'll be able to.

First you have to start looking for time to yourself (which you currently aren't because you're in husband mode). You don't have to go out for extended periods of time every evening. Even an 1 1/2 hour works as long as it's a mystery to your wife.

I'm concerned because we have kids. At least right now I just feel the need to be around them. I think I can work up to going out though.

We have had a bumpy year. I have been depressed and as a result I was neglectful

Do not fall back on depression excuse. It is a self defeating mindset. Lot of people have depression and still they do not let it control them.

Do your other responsibilities like job, studies, even better. It gives a sense of satisfaction and keep your mind occupied. It looks attractive in the eyes of everyone.

Looks like you are in a rush/impatient to get things done regarding infidelity. Do not feel overwhelmed. WW has already done the damage, no point in rushing around, instead be methodical, double check you steps with someone close to you like your friend/this forum.

Not much remorse from her. She even think the POS is great though she does not want to be with him. she is a cake eater. as they say act like you are going to end to even if you want to save it. Then she will really feel the impact

[This message edited by goalong at 2:35 PM, January 3rd (Friday)]

First, let me remind you that recovery after intimate betrayal is a process. What you feel today may not be what you feel six months from now. Toward that end, your best bet is to act in ways which keep your options open. The kneejerk reaction for most of us after DDay is to try to return to the status quo, so we end up making promises which commit us to R too early. Try to keep your options open.

True. I've already said shit about reconciling - but the contact needs to be cut. I've said my peace to her with regard to what's going on, the reasons, the whys - I've sent her material about cheating and that sort of shit. Folly in hindsight, but I didn't know.

That holds only IF the WS has given up the AP. There's nothing to save until that happens. So you have nothing to lose which is not already lost by laying down the ultimatum. On DDay, I swung for the fence on divorce. My WH was shell-shocked but agreeable. Then, he started doing the math. He started realizing what he was actually losing... half his income and assets, half his retirement, all of his children's respect, not to mention that of his family and friends, and ME, who had loved and protected him for over 30 years. So, within a few days he asked for time to prove himself, which I granted. He used that time to try and let the OW down easy or whatever, but the bottom line is that NC was broken. When I found out, he had about 30 seconds to decide whether he was in or out. I wasn't playing. It wasn't some kind of gambit. I meant it... and he knew it.

I think this is where I am and where she is - she wants to let him down easy. By that I mean that's what she said, not what the case is.

Cheaters have their heads firmly up their own backsides while they're cheating. It's a fantasy which has an almost addictive hold over them. Imagine it like a large bubble. You stick a pin in that bubble. Let her know that she can have her old high school boyfriend or she can have a CHANCE at saving her family dynamic. Not next month or next week, not even tomorrow. Today. Now. And if she balks, if she breaks NC, you start calling attorneys, fill out the paperwork, and sue her for divorce on grounds of adultery. You file for exclusive use of the home and temporary custody of the children. You make it so that you and your kids aren't having to give up anything that you've worked for just because she flaked out.

This is apt and I've already started the process of calling attorneys.

You don't have to be nasty. You don't have to argue or fight. But you do have to hold your ground. Whatever she's going to do, she will do regardless of your ultimatum. You're just minimizing the damage by drawing a line in the sand. Cheaters who are inclined to leave, leave no matter what you do. They just drag you through hell for a good long while before they get around to it.

That's the fucking truth.

Strength to you.

Thank you.

Do not fall back on depression excuse. It is a self defeating mindset. Lot of people have depression and still they do not let it control them.

True. It's tough to deal with though.

Do your other responsibilities like job, studies, even better. It gives a sense of satisfaction and keep your mind occupied. It looks attractive in the eyes of everyone.

I think this is the right thing to do.

Looks like you are in a rush/impatient to get things done regarding infidelity. Do not feel overwhelmed. WW has already done the damage, no point in rushing around, instead be methodical, double check you steps with someone close to you like your friend/this forum.

I feel like I'm in a rush/impatient when I should be methodical. Right now I've sent off a few emails for attorneys. I've sent an email to my friend - he's texted back. I will call him this weekend. I don't know about tonight.

I'm concerned because we have kids. At least right now I just feel the need to be around them. I think I can work up to going out though.

I get this but let me ask you something. You say she's going to see the POSOM this weekend. Who's watching the kids then? You I would suppose. I would take whatever time she leaves you, double it, and go out for that. Tell her it is time for her to be a Mom and leave. Don't tell her what you are doing or where you are going. Turn off your phone or location sharing if it is on. Get away from her. Don't be her stay at home babysitter while she goes out and then her at home husband when she wants you there. She better get used to being a single mother.

Our marriage was not perfect. I'm responsible for 50% of that.

This gets said a lot on SI. Gently, I'm not sure it's true and increasingly I suspect that it's not.

I'm with you. I see this a lot as well and it really should be amended to something like:

"We are both responsible for the state of our marriage but only you are responsible for the Affair".

Just take out the percentages because truthfully you don't know and it isn't necessarily 50/50. Also what I found out in my case is that the Affair actually started earlier than I originally knew so some of the crap that I heard for how bad our marriage had been for months was really that it was bad because she had a boyfriend.

You’ve received some good advice thus far. Decisiveness is key for not only your own sanity, but for clearly defining your boundaries for what is acceptable and non-acceptable to you.

Personally in your shoes I would offer to help pack her bags and take her to him, and mean it...no bluffing, no games. Drop her and her things off at his place and tell her your lawyer will be in touch. Show her you’re not messing around, not playing pick me games, that you’re taking control of the situation. Close down her options, and stand firm.

Whether you ultimately divorce or stay together is irrelevant at this point. The focus at this point is to get out of infidelity, and only you can take control of that because she won’t no matter how much you hope she might.

The attitude that you are trying to project during the 180 is "indifference." You will get out of infidelity on your terms, not hers. If she leaves you or you divorce her, you will recover and you will meet someone who will treat you as you deserve. The kids will be OK. It is better to have two happy co-parents, who both love them dearly, than to have two unhappy parents.

I'm thinking that you are in your mid-forties. This is prime time for a male. You are mature, stable, and have demonstrated that you are a loyal spouse. Those are highly-regarded traits in a man. How does she compare? (She's a cheater, disloyal, liar, lousy moral character, etc.) She should be worried to death that you will move on and not take another single bite of the shit sandwich that she has served you. SHE should be begging YOU to R (as well as working hard to deserve it). Your head should be held high, NEVER hung in shame. You are the honorable, decent, worthy prize; not your WW.

NOTE: She may come out of her fog and be horrified at what she has done. She may seek IC and change her WW ways and become worthy of the gift of R. If she does this work, it is then YOUR decision whether to give her the gift of R. She is not entitled to your gift. You are 100% in control.

The advice has been great. Use as much as is helpful to you. If some of the advice is not intuitive, ask the members to explain. They know what they are posting about.

Strength to you while you deal with this sh*tshow.

In reference to your questions about the 180...

Bear in mind that the 180 was created by Michele Weiner-Davis in her book Divorce Busting. Her theory, in a nutshell, was that you can avoid divorce by presenting an attractive alternative to leaving and by making your WS think you're moving on without them. Of course, the major flaw in that plan is that even if it works, you're not getting a partner who is doing the necessary work to repair their defective character. In essence, it's an aloof "pick me" dance. But even when you win the "pick me" you still lose, because your cheater hasn't done the work.

So, the 180 is a bit of a flawed premise. But what it excels at is creating emotional distance between you and your cheater so you can break your own enmeshment. It creates an atmosphere of polite civility and self-reliance. We tend to use 180 with recalcitrant cheaters who aren't committed to R or who are still cheating, not further on in the reconciliation process with a WS who is cooperative and remorseful.

Remember that your WW threw away her stated values of marriage and faithfulness. She gave herself permission to act outside of her own beliefs. She said 'yes' to adultery... and in so doing turned her back not only on you, but on herself. It's that gap between values and actions which allows the character defect, and that's the thing she needs to fix in order to be an acceptable partner going forward. Weiner's 180 doesn't account for that. Thus, the flawed premise.

ETA: I forgot to say that yeah, these guys are right... it's okay to show some hardening of the heart. You don't have to be nasty in your interactions, but you don't have to be nice either.

[This message edited by ChamomileTea at 3:11 PM, January 3rd (Friday)]

I get this but let me ask you something. You say she's going to see the POSOM this weekend. Who's watching the kids then? You I would suppose.

That's a good point - but I'm guessing at my darkest moments that's what she's going to do. She hasn't said she is or suggested it.

Yet.

I would take whatever time she leaves you, double it, and go out for that. Tell her it is time for her to be a Mom and leave. Don't tell her what you are doing or where you are going. Turn off your phone or location sharing if it is on. Get away from her. Don't be her stay at home babysitter while she goes out and then her at home husband when she wants you there. She better get used to being a single mother.

This is good advice. I'm going to send it to myself.

It's a shock for sure. You have a lot to learn and digest quickly.

I get you're affraid of exposure but if they have any contact the affair will continue.

The quickest and best way to try and break the affair is exposure. It should be very targeted. Family, friends, etc. no warning let them deal with the consequences.

Affairs are addictive and for the most part need to be kept in the dark and secretive to continue functioning. Don't enable it further by helping hide it for them.

There is no magic. If exposure doesn't stop it you have nothing to work on anyway. Better to find that out upfront than keep yourself in limbo hell letting her/them have control.

The truth is the only one that can keep you where you are is you.

Continued contact is just more damage. I'd give an ultimatum to zero contact or else.

However, if you give an ultimatum and not back it up you'll put yourself in worse shape.

You need a hard 180

How old are your kids?

Get out of the mindset a lot of BS's get into.

I can fix this if it was my fault. It wasn't and you can't. At this point only she can.

An affair is a very willing and cinscious decision that takes a lot of time and planning. This didn't just happen.

Clarity and knowledge will come.

On D day, for a lot of us, we’re under the impression that we’re not good enough, the AP is better and we try to "win" our spouse back. If you still somewhat feel like that, you will need to stop, and I’ll tell you why:

I've seen some version of this a lot - he's not married. He's cheated on all of his girlfriends. I asked my BS if it made a difference if he was cheating on her. She said he wouldn't do that.

So the POSOM is a broken man, and your cheating wife is a broken woman. And look! They are attracted to each other!

Now think about you. You are a faithful husband who loves his wife and children.

If you D, who do you think has a better chance to get into a new healthy relationship? Think about it.

I can almost guarantee you that your WW and her AP, it won’t work. Somebody is going to cheat again, or it will just blow up. Do you really think that guy is interested in doing day do day life with a mother of two?

In the long run, cheaters don’t get what they expect, they get what they deserve.

Then your WW will date again, to find a nice stable man for a long term relationship... Imagine the date... "Yeah, I cheated on my ex husband with a highschool sweetheart, I broke my family, and got a disease or two, but I learnt my lesson". How fast do you think her date will run?

What I’m getting at is you are in a position of strength. This is very important for you to realize. You are the prize and your WW is just a cheater . She will have to dump that guy in a second and do a whole lot of work for you to maybe, perhaps, consider granting her R without any promises.

She’s going to her AP this weekend? Not a problem. You can’t control her. But you can control you. You go talk to a lawyer and get rid of a cheater.

Doing the 180 is only for you to detach and not let the love you had for your WW cloud your judgement. That means, kick her out of your bedroom, don’t eat with her, don’t do anything for her. Just let her know that while she goes see her AP, you’ll go see a lawyer, and you would appreciate it if she could move out of the house...

Remember, you are the prize.

One more thing LostOne.

Take a breath! Things are coming at you fast and furious on this site and in life. You can take your time to process it all. The 180 is a great tool for allowing you to get some distance from this whole thing and calm down. Use it. This is a long process you are starting on whether the outcome is Divorce or Reconciliation. You don't have to try to solve it all today. What you should do though is settle in your mind, right now, that you are getting out of infidelity. For you. You are doing it. This is a different mindset than you are waiting for her to decide. That is passive.

Take charge now, on your time table, and start moving out of Infidelity. If she jumps on board then so be it. Decide then if you still want her. If she doesn't then that's okay too. You are getting out of this state and taking charge of your life. Make progress, slow or as fast as you want but make progress on this goal. If you sit and wait for her you are allowing her to continue to hurt you. Don't do that.

Understand that she is going to do what she wants to do. If she were thinking of you she wouldn't have had this Affair. She is not concerned about the effect on you right now. That might change but you can't count on that. What you can count on is taking care of yourself and getting yourself out of this state. I would tell her this point blank.

"I am leaving this state of Infidelity. You can join me and see if we can make a new relationship or you can go with AP but in either case I am not staying in this condition another second."

And mean it.