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barcher,

I have not been coy, ever, in my life. But, that doesn't mean that you are wrong.

I would note that in a prior post you said something along the lines of "she thinks I have divorce papers ready, but I am far from it" and in response to a question from me or another you basically said something to the effect of "Ive told her Im not so don't need to reinforce"

That's either coy or your PhD education talking (says another PhD). I may also have misread, so apologies, but...

p.s. I am a little disappointed that she thinks that I would hide divorce papers in the most obvious of locations. Bummer.

Mate, she's probably looked everywhere else accessible, no?

Now to my main addition FWIW:

A. Your wife, per what I read, has little sense of self-confidence. She needs her family validation that she's good etc.

B. I am very athletic with concomitant sports injuries and physio (age sucks!). Anyway, when recovering I often give little "tests" to see how much it hurts or does it hurt less ... It's not useful at all but I am semi-obsessively constantly testing, looking for reassurance about it or some information all will be well - else I am "depressed" (read as "sadder").

==> IMO, I wonder if your wife sometimes picks fights or other issues to test you on (and you post/vent) just to get reassurance that you are still there and care, and wont leave her.

So, why not offer that reassurance? You say she is working (generally) hard on the M (barring these points that pop up). And that is her job, true. But, perhaps as the BS you can offer this reassurance.

First up, why not ask her if she is looking for that reassurance. I suspect so, because this is the 3rd or 4th post of yours I have seen this trend of her thinking the worst case of you.

go well -- IDK

[This message edited by idontknow123 at 5:16 PM, May 16th (Tuesday)]

you basically said something to the effect of "Ive told her Im not so don't need to reinforce"

Perhaps my sense-of-humor has gotten in the way of good communication between you and me. I have directly told her that I am not anywhere close to filing for divorce. I have, in addition, I promised her (because she asked) that I would give the marriage until at least the end of August (1 year from D-day).

Mate, she's probably looked everywhere else accessible, no?

That was complete oddball humor there.

Your wife, per what I read, has little sense of self-confidence. She needs her family validation that she's good etc.

Spot-on. I give her a lot of validation; her family gives her zero validation. I would like some validation; I get zero validation from her. I have explicitly asked, repeatedly, for validation. Many times, before D-day, after D-day, yesterday, today, any day that you can think of... it still does not come.

First up, why not ask her if she is looking for that reassurance.

Yes, I'll ask. To be honest, now that you have me thinking... I think that she needs to go back to IC. I believe that I give her quite a good deal of validation. Why isn't this enough? I don't know... but the consequences of her ignoring my validation is that she went to AP for it. Repeatedly. One of her little pieces of trickle truth is that AP did not initiate the affair... she did.

Ok, this is my vent thread, so this is not even a thread jack.

FUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCK!!!!!!

ok, i feel better now. i should just get a fucking divorce.

Yes, I'll ask.

The answer could be quite telling as I think all the fights etc are just her way of seeking that without having to ask (humiliating, shameful or weak to ask?).

To be honest, now that you have me thinking... I think that she needs to go back to IC.

I was headed there, but know you haven't had good experiences in past.

I believe that I give her quite a good deal of validation. Why isn't this enough? I don't know... but the consequences of her ignoring my validation is that she went to AP for it. Repeatedly.

To get her to go or see the issue, mention perhaps what I noted about seeking reassurance and these words of yours above ^^^

Then you could add:

I give her a lot of validation; her family gives her zero validation. I would like some validation; I get zero validation from her.

Noting that this is essentially, to me at least, what appears to be a root problem and major FOO issue (for IC). Get past it and things could be way better(??) .. These little fights/issues always seem to involve you reassuring and validating her.

Mate, she's probably looked everywhere else accessible, no?

To me it's not oddball or was it you?? Anyway, actually, since she seems locked in on your divorcing her, despite firm assurance otherwise, she probably has been looking for clues everywhere. Never underestimate the mindset.

A suggestion: renegotiate your August deadline if, and only if, after directly asking, she will commit something. If this is the issue...

Perhaps my sense-of-humor has gotten in the way of good communication between you and me.

I know you've told her directly you're not, at least until August, but clearly she hasn't taken it on board. I.e. you're not miscommunicating with me, you're miscommunicating with her - sorta clearly to my (limited view) eye.

I only have your words to go by, but in the other post you didn't think you needed to reconfirm that as you had (as stated above) told her quite directly. To you that was enough. To her, maybe not, or maybe August is looming and...

oddball humor

One over-educated person to another, what we think is humor, others often see as just "odd". A fair warning you already know.

PS: per last post, don't divorce her if she's trying and you want her. You're smart enough to suss this out... My pro-M, optimistic take only..

go well and good luck -- IDK

[This message edited by idontknow123 at 8:22 PM, May 16th (Tuesday)]

So, some updates:

She assures me that her concerns were strictly about my marijuana use... and primarily... I am not the problem... she is the problem. That is, she wouldn't have a problem if I had a couple of glasses of wine every day. She admitted that my marijuana use is without any issues at all (i.e., I don't neglect any of my responsibilities... I am not obnoxious when stoned... I can and do take care of myself while stoned... etc).

I explicitly told her that I think that she needs to go back to therapy. She has a huge need for attention and my ego kibbles are often insufficient for her. She disagrees, stating that now that my depression is under control... she is much happier.

We also discussed the fact that she compliments me never. She agreed that I have brought this up many many times and that she has never changed.

I went a step further this time and reminded her of the "attention bids" that we learned about in marriage counseling (See Gottman). I pointed out that she got incredibly frustrated with me whenever I didn't acquiesce to her bid for attention IMMEDIATELY. I have worked on and improved this. It makes her happy.

I then pointed out that she is HORRIBLE at satisfying my bids for attention. For example, she will sit on the couch and knit while I watch TV (usually stoned) at night. She wants to knit for 30-45 minutes each night. She has made it clear that she "needs" that time no matter what. I pointed out that she is being hypocritical when she complains about me not meeting her bid for attention but then she doesn't reciprocate.

So, good news... I "won" our argument. I won using logic and reason and pointing out to her that I simply want what she wants.

Unfortunately, I'll probably "lose" the long-term battle. I seriously doubt that she will change. I say this because I have made requests like this numerous times and she will do better for a day or two, but then go back to her old ways.

[This message edited by barcher144 at 1:02 PM, May 17th (Wednesday)]

Barcher,

MC then. If you want your bids accepted and she doesn't seem able to then it's either bc

a. IC for her issues around reassurance from you

b. MC so you can both speak the same language. As I noted, I think you two talk a lot, I don't think you hear the same things. That has to be pretty close to the definition of needing MC. Would it help that it was a joint thing and you could interview MCs etc?

IMO, your go to line is:

pointing out to her that I simply want what she wants

To which I would add, as it seems to me this is true, ... and you both want more from the relationship beyond that, which will require some compromise to move further to something even better.

To which I would finally ask, does she think you can be better as a couple than you are? Maybe she doesn't and you do?

Oh, and on the MJ, you know dude, wine is cool too, yeah? If we were friends/neighbours IRL it wouldn't bother me anymore than it does here, but I too might have some weird internal different feelings on it. Said with all intents to be gentle yet honest. Perhaps that is her bias as well (as mine)?

cheers -- IDK

I think it's interesting that you pointed out a very real issue with her - ego kibbles - that contributed to the A and she deflected by saying she's happier because your depression is under control. It doesn't seem like she thinks she has to make any changes to herself to become a safe partner if you're willing to take the blame for her A.

"What does idk mean? I don't know. Well you don't have to be a jerk about it."

That's a running joke we have at work.

That's how you t/j, barcher!

I know you mentioned she used mj in the past, could it be that even though she's used it, she still has a stigma against it?

In all honesty, as I've mentioned before, most of us were ingrained with the fact that any drugs were bad. But, with mj, not so much. I don't have a pony in this race, but it's very hard to overcome that stigma, as with any other ingrained stigma.

Btw, you're sense of humor is like mine. Scary.

My H was a regular marijuana smoker - was before we were married and for many years after. He was never "stoned" either - I actually encouraged it because it helped with his anxiety and it motivated him (he doesn't get sleepy or lazy - likely because he has ADHD and it has the opposite effect)...it is decriminalized here, but in his current position, he is subject to random piss tests, so he had to stop. I have him on an essential oil concoction that helps with his ADHD and anxiety - not quite the same as the marijuana, but better than some of the pharmaceuticals and their side effects for those conditions. My point is, if this is something that calms you, and you don't have to test, why worry about it? Wine (not that I don't love my wine every now and again) - any alcohol for that matter, is another potentially addictive drug, not to mention that it puts weight on you (although, depending on the degree of the munchies you get when you are high )

I'm sorry you were triggered, barcher.

I explicitly told her that I think that she needs to go back to therapy. She has a huge need for attention and my ego kibbles are often insufficient for her. She disagrees, stating that now that my depression is under control... she is much happier.

I agree with you. My FWH had a innate need for ego kibbles and attention; he was in IC for almost 3 years. Most of his latter sessions focused on just having someone to whom he could spill his guts and get that extra attention and validation, specifically related to his FOO issues (long story; his many of his family members, including his mother, are whackadoodles).

idk123 said:

MC so you can both speak the same language. As I noted, I think you two talk a lot, I don't think you hear the same things. That has to be pretty close to the definition of needing MC. Would it help that it was a joint thing and you could interview MCs etc?

Very spot-on. FWH and I did MC as well as IC - our MC was very good at helping us truly "hear" one another and gave us "homework" to help us connect given that we are wired so very differently.

[This message edited by Lalagirl at 7:15 AM, May 18th (Thursday)]

As far as MJ, I understand that people have different opinions about it. I'm pretty discreet about it. I seriously doubt that my neighbors had a clue when I was smoking it (stronger odor) but even less so now that I am using a dry vaporizer (less odor). It helps that my house is such that I have a good deal of privacy.

I think that my wife's issue is that I have progressed from never using it at all (prior to March 2016) to experimenting with it to using it regularly. This is with a person who drinks alcohol very rarely (I probably consume a case of beer per year... it has literally been YEARS since I was "drunk"), who has never smoked a cigarette, and who had never used an illicit drug before.

Prior to her complaints, I had decided to cut back my use anyway. The specific issue that concerns me is that MJ is very good at helping me fall asleep, such that it becomes difficult to sleep if I don't get high. I don't want that problem. My plan, going forward, is to limit my use to every-other-day.

edited to add: I have very little "legal" reason to be concerned about MJ use since it is decriminalized in my state. I also have no professional concerns. My job does not EVER require drug testing. I don't think if my employer decided (for some reason) to start a drug testing program... that they would be allowed to test me (i.e., it could only affect new hires going forward).

[This message edited by barcher144 at 7:30 AM, May 18th (Thursday)]

As far as the marriage, I am not sure that we need to go back to marriage counseling just yet. Our marriage counselor was pretty good at marriage counseling (generally), just bad at dealing with infidelity.

I don't trust much that my wife says these days (for obvious reasons), but I do trust that she wants to make this marriage work. For now, polite reminders are probably the best approach. My concern is that I have asked her to make some small changes in the past and it has never stuck.

Part of the problem is her FOO. Her mother is highly narcissistic and believes that women can do no wrong. Ergo, if there is a problem with a marriage, it's the husband's fault. For now, I am just pointing out the hypocrisy of some of her views.

Another part of the problem is our marriage counselor's views on infidelity. I have talked about this elsewhere but the MC was very much of the opinion that the infidelity is the responsibility of both spouses. I have tried and tried to convince her otherwise.

Yesterday, ChamomileTea wrote something that I thought was really good, so I sent it to my wife. I don't know if it had an impact on her, but this is what I sent:

There is an antiquated model that is still popular with many therapists. It's all about whether or not one's Emotional Needs are being met within the relationship.

Let me tell you what happens when you buy into that though...

In 2004, I caught my husband involving himself in online emotional affairs with cybersexing, sexts, and phoning. So, I saw an attorney while he was at work, called him on the phone and told him he needed to come home so we could talk. He pretty much knew he was busted and made it home in record time, where I basically presented my evidence and told him I was going to file immediately for divorce. He gave me crocodile tears, we went to marriage counseling for awhile, and I started learning all I could about infidelity. Of course, this "Emotional Needs" model was the first thing I ran into. And being the compassionate empathizer I am... I bought in heavily and started doing the "pick me dance" like a pro.

Things went pretty well for a few years, and then, unbeknownst to me, my husband started looking for women online again. By 2014, he was finding them. And this time, in person.

I've come to believe that cheating is about one's character and how that person deals with their perceived problems. We've all got issues in our relationships, needs unmet or ignored from time to time, built up resentments over unresolved grievances. But... not all of us cheat.

The more compelling piece of evidence to put the "Emotional Needs" argument to rest though... is the RISK involved. My husband risked the loss of his marriage, his family, his reputation, his livelihood, his retirement, and even his own health. He could've been killed. He didn't really KNOW any of those people. All he had to base his actions on was a few week's worth of internet messages and phone calls. He could've been mugged and shot by some criminal who had reeled him in. But he risked everything... for some strange ass.

That's not about the marriage. It's not about "Emotional Needs" or getting told 'not tonight dear' one too many times. It's about thrill-seeking and adrenaline. It's about nursed resentments and internal disappointments and anger turned inward.

Yes. We make mistakes in marriage. But NOTHING we've done will make a person risk everything they've ever worked for or held dear. Nothing we've done will make them engage in behaviors that are alien to their own internal values. Nothing we've done will make them turn their anger inward. The first person an adulterer lies to is himself.

It's okay to talk about unmet needs in the context of marriage counseling. When we're talking about how the relationship is working on a day-to-day basis, the need for healthy companionship, communication, and sexual attention are all valid concerns. At that point, we're addressing the contentment and satisfaction we're deriving from a relationship we've invested in. We're putting this much in, what are we getting back? Marriage is a transaction in this regard, so we've each got our 50% to put into it and get out of it.

But it is NOT okay for a counselor to blame us as if we were somehow responsible for our spouse's internal coping mechanisms or for their inability to be self-fruitful in terms of happiness. We are NOT our spouse's keeper in those areas. Every person must be complete within themselves.

So, if you're running into this model when dealing with infidelity issues, reject it, and move on. If you're talking about marital satisfaction, fine, "unmet needs" can be on the table. But if we're talking about adultery and our spouse's risk of all that was valuable to him... that's about him not being complete within himself.

It's okay to interview several therapists and it's okay for a therapist to challenge your views. But it's NOT okay for one to blame you for your cheating husband's choice to commit adultery.

I think that my wife's issue is that I have progressed from never using it at all (prior to March 2016) to experimenting with it to using it regularly. This is with a person who drinks alcohol very rarely (I probably consume a case of beer per year... it has literally been YEARS since I was "drunk"), who has never smoked a cigarette, and who had never used an illicit drug before.

Same with my hubby - no cigs, very little alcohol since 2008 - maybe a beer or two a year(he actually had a problem with alcohol back in his A days and quit). Anyway, if it helps you sleep (ambien has potentially awful side effects, like getting up and doing things you don't remember doing, uh...like DRIVING), and it helps with your depression, IMHO, I see no harm in it. Just my two cents.

My job does not EVER require drug testing

Thank God. You're lucky. My husband is in a trade where being under the influence could have hazardous reprecussions. But he NEVER used on the job...but the problem is, MJ stays in your system for so damn long and when you test, you're either dirty or not dirty. There's no indicator noting whether you used it 2 weeks ago or an hour ago.

Anyway, if it helps you sleep (ambien has potentially awful side effects, like getting up and doing things you don't remember doing, uh...like DRIVING), and it helps with your depression, IMHO, I see no harm in it.

I don't see any harm in it either. I'm obviously very logical and analytical and I can't think of obvious reasons to stop.

One reason that I will stop is if my wife asks me to quit... if she does, then I will do it. My vent is related to the fact that I have asked her repeatedly if she had a problem with it... she said no then, but then she said yes the other night (hence my vent).

Right now, my 'biggest problem' with MJ is the fact that I get dependent on it to fall asleep. While this is great if I am having trouble sleeping (for example, I recommend MJ for folks who have trouble sleeping after D-day), it is paradoxically problematic because it makes it difficult on the nights when I don't get high to fall asleep.

I don't know how much it helps with my depression anymore. The anti-depressants really help with that. Even without the anti-depressants, MJ was simply a band-aid... it gave me a couple of hours of relief -- it wasn't a permanent solution (thankfully, the ADs are a permanent solution -- knock on wood).

For now, I just like being high. It's enjoyable. It has few consequences in my life. I got a little too high last night (I've cut back lately and my tolerance has gone down -- oops) and I have no ill-effects today.

I have the world's greatest job as far as good pay, ridiculous job security, great benefits, etc. Last year, when the depression was starting to get really bad (before D-day), I started hating my job (a symptom of the depression). I talked to my therapist about it and she suggested getting a new job... which I logically didn't want to do because of the pay and security. She used the term "golden handcuffs" to describe my job.

The good news is that my depression continues to abate. I started working normally about a month ago... and the last two weeks, I have been enthusiastic about my job... I am working more and more because it is again "fun."

Btw, you're sense of humor is like mine. Scary.

Yeah, dude... you got problems if that is true.

I think it's interesting that you pointed out a very real issue with her - ego kibbles - that contributed to the A and she deflected by saying she's happier because your depression is under control. It doesn't seem like she thinks she has to make any changes to herself to become a safe partner if you're willing to take the blame for her A.

She recognizes the problem with ego kibbles, somewhat.

She said yesterday that she wanted those ego kibbles from me but couldn't get them because of my depression. I responded that ego kibbles should NEVER come from someone else while married. She agreed, sort of.

Still, it's so easy for her to blame her affair on my depression. This problem is exacerbated because that is what our MC and her IC reinforced for her.

Her reluctance to change is an FOO issue -- it is ingrained. Her mother is a very strong-willed person and she has raised her daughters to think that men/husbands are lazy and stupid and could not survive without a woman to take care of them. In her mother's mind, the woman/wife is perfect and never makes a mistake.

I have pointed out to my wife that I don't need her to "take care of me" in the way that her mother has taught her. I can cook, clean, whatever. I don't need a fucking maid or a mother.

I want a best friend and a lover, someone who cares for my emotional needs. Yes, it's great that she cooks (a hobby of hers - she rarely lets me cook, something that I also enjoy) and cleans (I help), but that's simply an arbitrary division of labor by two busy people.

I hope for the best for you but in my experience, there's no difference between someone who can't change and someone who won't in terms of outcome. It doesn't matter how much they want the marriage to work if they're unwilling to change what lead to it breaking. Recognizing the problem somewhat is not enough because it won't facilitate change without full acknowledgement. You can understand everything about how your WW ticks and still have an unsafe partner because you can't do the work for her. I don't know how long you plan on letting counseling go , but I hope you listen to ChamomileTea and screen for a good therapist to get you on the right track.

My vent is related to the fact that I have asked her repeatedly if she had a problem with it... she said no then, but then she said yes the other night (hence my vent).

Understood.

That must be beyond frustrating. Damned if you do and damned if you don't.

there's no difference between someone who can't change and someone who won't in terms of outcome.

I think that she is willing to change... but I am not sure that she is capable. She definitely wants to change. She wants her marriage to improve. I am going to give her a chance.

I don't know how long you plan on letting counseling go , but I hope you listen to ChamomileTea and screen for a good therapist to get you on the right track.

I don't know if I will ever require that she go back to a therapist and I don't know if we will go back to marriage counseling. I think that we have learned enough at marriage counseling (for now) to resolve our problems. The real fix at MC does not occur in the office, but rather at home.

As far as the marriage, I am not sure that we need to go back to marriage counseling just yet. Our marriage counselor was pretty good at marriage counseling (generally), just bad at dealing with infidelity.

Can I ask you why you believe you are not rug sweeping or co-dependant?

The only work being done in your marriage is you medicating your depression. I have seen you point out abuse in others threads ...do believe there is any mental or emotional abuse in your marriage towards you?

And I see you give advice to others but seem resistant to advice that been given? (IC or MC for you or your wife)

Honestly my friend I am floored as too why you think you have a good AUTHENTIC marriage.

[This message edited by prissy4lyfe at 3:27 PM, May 18th (Thursday)]

Can I ask you why you believe you are not rug sweeping or co-dependant?

Sure. You can ask. I can't answer your question, though. Why and what do you think that I am rugsweeping and/or co-dependent? (I often use sarcasm; not here)

To be clear, I am not entirely certain that I know what it means to be "co-dependent." My understanding of co-dependence is that it is related to some sort of problem with my spouse. For example, she is an alcoholic and I do everything that I can to enable her alcoholism (covering for her, etc) and thus I am sort of dependent on alcohol too (thus co-dependent). That is definitely not the case.

The other definition that seems common at SI is the situation where a person values the marriage more than they value themselves. I don't think that is the case with me either. I don't want to get divorced, but I will if it becomes necessary.

As far as rugsweeping, I don't think so. I mean, I initiate threads like this because I am concerned that she is rugsweeping. I don't want to continue my marriage unless I am convinced that it is a safe marriage. If she cheats again, it'll probably kill me (literally). I don't want to fuck around with that.

I am guessing that you are interpreting my DIY-preference for living as rugsweeping. This is not the case. I don't think therapists are a magic solution; indeed, a bad therapist is worse than rugsweeping.

The only work being done in your marriage is you medicating your depression. I have seen you point out abuse in others threads ...do believe there is any mental or emotional abuse in your marriage?

There was definitely mental/emotional abuse in my marriage in the past. She did a lot of lying and gaslighting. I'd like to think that she has stopped lying. But, when can you tell when someone has stopped lying? I also have done a bunch of things (depression-related) that she considers to be emotional abuse. I wouldn't call them that, but I definitely don't consider my behavior acceptable either.

She has done quite a bit of work on herself, she claims. I don't see a difference but that doesn't mean that she hasn't changed. She says that she is much more comfortable talking to me about her concerns. She says that she recognizes her insecurities and how they led to the affair. I don't believe that she considers her insecurities as the primary cause of her affair, but I have told her that is the case.

My wife takes reconciliation very seriously, I think (she could be lying... she's good at that, as I have discovered). We are far enough past D-day that the majority of our reconciliation-related conversations are not emotional.

[This message edited by barcher144 at 3:39 PM, May 18th (Thursday)]