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Hmm

FWIW and I think the thread has petered out a bit with your responses, but some thoughts/questions to perhaps test your thinking in those response?

a. IMO, nothing against MJ, but if you want to wean down, you're doing it right, wean in time and intensity but not all at once.

b. Does your wife recognise the FOO issues with her mother, more than in words? Or does she still kow-tow to the line? That she is working hard for the M and wants R (at least you feel so though you cant see changes??) would indicate that inside at least she accepts that her mothers view isn't right - does that sound right?

c. What was your wife's response to the post you sent her? That would be telling IMO about the accuracy of your feelings on how she is working on the M and wants R strongly.

Oh, and I still suspect the MJ is a smokescreen (no humor intended) for other issues.

And, finally, I think you need to be stronger with her about receiving feedback on your "bids" (am a believer and have read on this), it seems a strong indicator of M health - which might be how you "sell" it to her if she believes her mothers view that all men "should come to women" and not so much vice versa... (an interpretation of what you wrote that might not be right)

cheers -- IDK

[This message edited by idontknow123 at 4:19 PM, May 18th (Thursday)]

FWIW and I think the thread has petered out a bit with your responses, but some thoughts/questions to perhaps test your thinking in those response?

The thread has certainly meandered. Go back to the original post... there has been almost no discussion of my original vent.

Does your wife recognise the FOO issues with her mother, more than in words? Or does she still kow-tow to the line? That she is working hard for the M and wants R (at least you feel so though you cant see changes??) would indicate that inside at least she accepts that her mothers view isn't right - does that sound right?

I don't know. I usually get minimal response from her regarding her mother. It's like she accepts that her mother's views are wonky, but yet doesn't think that they need to be changed.

What was your wife's response to the post you sent her? That would be telling IMO about the accuracy of your feelings on how she is working on the M and wants R strongly.

Not much. She asked why I sent it. I told her that I think that my biggest fear is that she would cheat on me again... that I want her to "fix" her issues, whatever they are. I specifically said that our MC advocated the wrong approach to reconciliation post-infidelity.

Oh, and I still suspect the MJ is a smokescreen (no humor intended) for other issues.

Do you have a guess as to what those issues are? I enjoy it... I think that it's just that simple.

And, finally, I think you need to be stronger with her about receiving feedback on your "bids" (am a believer and have read on this), it seems a strong indicator of M health

The "bids" for attention were the last thing that we covered in MC before the MC fired us. The reading that we were given was very compelling (Gottman). Beyond that, she has complained that I ignore or otherwise respond poorly to her bids for attention.

The fact that she ignores or responds poorly to my bids for attention is a new thought for me. I'm very introverted and self-reliant, so it's kind of hard for me to recognize something like that as being a problem for her. I don't have high expectations that she would satisfy my "bids", so I haven't noticed before. But, I do make some "bids" for attention and they are often ignored.

Anyway, I think that she liked the "bids" material... so I think that she'll try to accommodate that more going forward. I hope.

Im honestly confused.

She takes this seriously.. But you see no change.

You say you dont want a divorce...but havent said anything about why you want to stay married.

You say your willing to get a divorce....but its been a year and you admit she hasn't done much in the way od work...and you stay.

Very little work on her end to deal with her issues, responds thoughtfully to yoir triggers or have better communication about your needs.

No snark and im honestly interested in what your saying. I dont see it based on your posts and I absolutely love your humor as well.

[This message edited by prissy4lyfe at 4:49 PM, May 18th (Thursday)]

She takes this seriously.. But you see no change.

I think that she loves me. I am scared and reluctant to trust that, though. I'm hurt and wounded, like any betrayed spouse.

I think that she genuinely (right now) wants to be faithful for the rest of her life. However, simply wanting that... is probably insufficient. She needs to address her need for ego kibbles from someone other than me, in my opinion.

Instead, she believes that getting my depression under control will resolve her infidelity problems. I think the getting my depression under control resolves many (not all) of our marital problems, but it does not affect her penchant for infidelity at all.

Someone in another thread that her husband said the same thing: I don't ever want to cheat again. But, her husband was more likely to have a second affair than a first affair because the root problem (need for ego kibbles) was not addressed... and it's easier to cheat after you have done it once.

You say you dont want a divorce...but havent said anything about why you want to stay married.

Because no one asked, at least in this thread. Reason#1: I love her. Reason#2: I like her. We agree on many many issues, including politics and raising children. We enjoy each other's company very much. When we take the time to ignore the world and focus on each other, we have a great time together. Reason#3: I am very sexually attracted to her.

You say your willing to get a divorce....but its been a year and you admit she hasn't done much in the way od work...and you stay.

It's been 9 months, not a year. And I spent at least 3 of those months focusing on my depression rather than my marriage.

To be honest, I think that we are very far along for being 9-months post-D-day. My biggest concern is that we are in false R because it is going so well. I am still working hard on R... I want this. I think that she wants it too.

She says that she has done the work. I said that I don't see a difference. I am pushing her to work more.

Anyway, I stay because I want to stay. See the above response to "Why do I want to stay married to her?"

Very little work on her end to deal with her issues, responds thoughtfully to yoir triggers or have better communication about your needs

.

She responds thoughtfully to my triggers, what few that I have. If you read the complaints and concerns of other betrayed spouses, my wife exhibits very few of those (post D-day). She hasn't broken NC as far as I know. She has never sat on the fence as far as R or D. She has dealt with me and my depression for 10+ years. She should get credit for that, I think.

OK

there has been almost no discussion of my original vent.

bc it's a smokescreen disagreement for what lies behind it?

Do you have a guess as to what those issues are? I enjoy it... I think that it's just that simple.

Ha but I meant your wife's issues! - or is that your wonky sense of humor again?

It's like she accepts that her mother's views are wonky, but yet doesn't think that they need to be changed.

I find your take interesting to words. Her mothers view don't have to change. What I was asking was, how does she treat those views in her decision making, particularly regarding you? Her commitment to M and R seems to say she ignores them or is able to, yet your words around bids and treating men in her life indicate they affect her decision making. Thoughts?

I told her that I think that my biggest fear is that she would cheat on me again... that I want her to "fix" her issues, whatever they are. I specifically said that our MC advocated the wrong approach to reconciliation post-infidelity.

To which she said, but I wont! (??) I suspect from other things you've written. From which, I would note again that you two talk a lot, and well, but don't seem to draw the same message out. Why not? What's the blocking point that prevents you saying "that's not enough" (you have I think) and her understanding that it isn't enough?

Especially, if she wants to work on things with you to be (even) better? Knowing also it's a two way street, she can ask reasonable things of you, and has gotten such around your depression for example.

I repeat this bc in reading your stuff, this same thing comes up repeatedly, it seems at least to me, even if the venting issue changes. Hence, the smokescreen analogy too perhaps..

Beyond that, she has complained that I ignore or otherwise respond poorly to her bids for attention.

so, something for you

I don't have high expectations that she would satisfy my "bids",

Why not, shouldn't you?? Wouldn't that be part of a better M for you both?

But, I do make some "bids" for attention and they are often ignored.

And something for her

She says that she has done the work. I said that I don't see a difference.

Different question then, what would convince you she had? What action or behaviour?

cheers -- IDK (with thanks to Prissy for the stolen response to her question)

[This message edited by idontknow123 at 5:38 PM, May 18th (Thursday)]

Ha but I meant your wife's issues! - or is that your wonky sense of humor again?

Nope. That was a genuine misunderstanding.

I think that it's probably a control issue for her. Also, she might have a mental block about being married to a stoner. Ironic, considering that she was the one who encouraged me to try it in the first place.

What I was asking was, how does she treat those views in her decision making, particularly regarding you? Her commitment to M and R seems to say she ignores them or is able to, yet your words around bids and treating men in her life indicate they affect her decision making. Thoughts?

Her response is confusing. She agrees that her mother's views are weird and she agrees that she (my wife) shares the views of her mother... but my wife doesn't change them.

To which she said, but I wont! (??)

Yes, exactly.

I would note again that you two talk a lot, and well, but don't seem to draw the same message out. Why not? What's the blocking point that prevents you saying "that's not enough" (you have I think) and her understanding that it isn't enough?

The first issue is simply human nature. Why dig deeper when you have a reasonable cause (my depression) that represents an easy solution (no work for her). The second issue is that both our MC and her IC re-inforced her opinion that my depression caused her affair.

Especially, if she wants to work on things with you to be (even) better? Knowing also it's a two way street, she can ask reasonable things of you, and has gotten such around your depression for example.

Why not, shouldn't you?? Wouldn't that be part of a better M for you both?

Because that's my personality. I am a "classic" middle-child. I don't require a lot of attention; I don't want a lot of attention. That's my nature. Her denial of my 'bids' for attention is something that I figured out only a day or two ago. Seriously.

Different question then, what would convince you she had? What action or behaviour?

Well, the first piece of convincing would be the fact that she would stop saying that getting my depression under control will prevent her from having another affair.

Beyond that, it would be really nice if she spoke highly of me (I have requested that she compliment me -- she doesn't). Now that I realize it, I'd like for her to stop denying my bids for attention.

The first issue is simply human nature. Why dig deeper when you have a reasonable cause (my depression) that represents an easy solution (no work for her). The second issue is that both our MC and her IC re-inforced her opinion that my depression caused her affair.

Because she wants to stay married to you and it's not enough for you. In the end, if it's not enough, it's not. Doesn't matter what her IC and MC said, which hurt you btw and she should know that. You don't have to disagree that your depression made the pre-A M difficult, but it is not, and never will be a reason (so says the canon here at SI, no?).

What if your pot, which she recommended, becomes the new depression? She's already become critical.

If she cant do that for you or admit it to herself, then where are you? IMO, that's an MC issue or you can state directly and see what happens.

Well, the first piece of convincing would be the fact that she would stop saying that getting my depression under control will prevent her from having another affair.

Beyond that, it would be really nice if she spoke highly of me (I have requested that she compliment me -- she doesn't). Now that I realize it, I'd like for her to stop denying my bids for attention.

So, really, you want a better M than you have now, post-depression, and she doesn't or doesn't see a need.

Does she know she's choosing that with her actions?

Just my 23p -- IDK

Because she wants to stay married to you and it's not enough for you. In the end, if it's not enough, it's not.

It's my job to communicate that to her, correct? And that's basically the topic of my threads of late.

What if your pot, which she recommended, becomes the new depression? She's already become critical.

Totally, absolutely different. My depression was a 24-7 type of problem. Pot is after 9pm on nights when we have nothing else going on. Regardless, I would quit the pot if she asked... or at least quit using it regularly.

Does she know she's choosing that with her actions?

I think that a proper response to this question is simply:

Are we reconciled? No.

Are we doing well, going down the path of reconciliation? I think so.

Are we guaranteed to reconcile even though it's generally going well? No. We still have a lot of work to do and it could always go sideways.

I'm tardy to the party, but here's my take Bob-

There's a lot of you you you with your wife, eh? Not a whole lot of internal reflection. This is the shit that I can't deal with. "You can't see how much I love you" "you needed to control yourself so I wouldn't stray" (!!!) "you need to give me more attention, even though you need that too and I'm ambivalent on my desire to accommodate."

And this pot use is a major falsehood. We smoke up too- it makes shit better. She wants you calmer. Happier. So why would she see pot as a negative when she has explicitly informed you that your lessened negativity is a good thing?

And the orgasm thing. Holy shit. Why would she do that except if she was done with sex with you? I always go for the O, no matter how long it takes, because that's the prize! If I can't I just say so. But to fake it is troubling. Either she is so codependent that she is just out to make you happy regardless (which I doubt because she isn't putting much work in otherwise and that whole A to-do) or she wants to end the good times early and get onto her sewing and finish herself off later. Or there's a guilt thing?

Are you certain she still isn't cheating? I am pretty sure you've got more TT ahead of you if not.

Major hugs. This shit stinks.

There's a lot of you you you with your wife, eh?

Yes, there is a lot of narcissism in her -- that is a major FOO issue. I have started asking her directly "What is in the marriage for ME?" Sure, I get sex... but I am certain that I can find someone else for that (or just get a bottle of lotion). I don't need a mom who cooks and cleans for me. I want a best friend and a support network and love and intimacy and a partner-in-crime.

So why would she see pot as a negative when she has explicitly informed you that your lessened negativity is a good thing?

I think this is primarily an FOO issue/control issue. In her FOO, alcohol is fine; pot is not. In her FOO, her mother tries to control her father and limit his "bad behavior". If you all haven't figured it out, smoking pot is about the worst behavior that I ever exhibit (I'm a pretty straight-arrow guy)... so she picks on that because she doesn't have much else to pick on.

Why would she do that except if she was done with sex with you? I always go for the O, no matter how long it takes, because that's the prize! If I can't I just say so.

Some of this is TMI that I don't want to explain (because I am lazy). However, she doesn't fake an orgasm (it's not obvious when a woman has an orgasm like with a guy -- actually, she has accused me of faking an orgasm now and then!?!?!?!?!???!). It's more like I'd ask her afterwards if she did... and she'd say "yes" when she didn't.

Either she is so codependent that she is just out to make you happy regardless (which I doubt because she isn't putting much work in otherwise and that whole A to-do) or she wants to end the good times early and get onto her sewing and finish herself off later. Or there's a guilt thing?

I have no idea. The co-dependency is an idea that merits further consideration. I'll think about that.

I think that she just didn't want to upset me by saying that she didn't. It definitely isn't something to end the good times early. First, I've made it clear that I'd be happy to do whatever that would help. Second, sex is almost always first thing in the morning or last thing at the end of the day.

Are you certain she still isn't cheating? I am pretty sure you've got more TT ahead of you if not.

I am pretty sure that she is not cheating now, at least physically. I can't track all of her communications, obviously. She doesn't hide her phone anymore.

She is a very devoted mother, so there isn't much time during the day where she isn't at work or with the kids. Her opportunity for infidelity is in the evening when the kids are asleep and I am not at home.

As far as the potential for an EA, I don't think that she has any contact with her AP. I told OBS and I am pretty certain that she has a close eye on her husband. They are VERY wealthy (he's a neurosurgeon) and OBS really likes the money (and hates her career... she's also a doctor).

I am also worried about more TT. Actually, I am worried that there is more there but she'll never tell. There is a possibility of a polygraph in the future...

Major hugs. This shit stinks.

Thanks. This is nothing compared to what you have going on. I am actually doing well. I think most of my concerns are part of the legitimate/normal healing process that is reconciliation.

Barcher,

Seeing as you are depressive and that regular pot usage can lead to depression AND seeing as it’s an issue that disturbs your wife and therefore your marriage AND seeing as you have several times stated that it’s use is not a problem for you and you could quit anytime…

Then why don’t you just quit?

Find other healthier ways to relax.

See if you committing to this might create a positive change in your marriage. If it could help you both towards reconciliation.

Based purely on YOUR words about quitting not being hard for you and it not being an issue then to me that sounds like a small experiment well worth trying.

Seeing as you are depressive and that regular pot usage can lead to depression AND seeing as it’s an issue that disturbs your wife and therefore your marriage AND seeing as you have several times stated that it’s use is not a problem for you and you could quit anytime…

Then why don’t you just quit?

Regular pot use can lead to depression; paradoxically, regular pot use can help relieve depression symptoms. It all depends on the person.

In my case, the pot helped when I was suffering from depression. I am now, however, experience somewhere between no and minimal symptoms of depression. The pot is irrelevant with respect to depression.

My wife literally told me last night that my pot use does not bother her. I don't know what to think about her and my pot use...

Hey mate,

Rather than the quotes and followup thing. I want to add a few points since everyone's still here, or you at least What follows is all just my 23p opinion...

Communications: Perhaps you would both benefit from a communication course (not MC) or retrouvaille or similar or ??? to reinstate communication and intimacy? As you noted, all your threads seem to revolve around clear statements somehow not cross the 1m from you to her (or vice versa).

I add intimacy as she does her thing after the "arsenic hour" (our term of herding kids about and up to bed) and you yours. You've noted there is togetherness there, but perhaps more structure or something to ensure it.

Also see my thoughts as they tie into the bids thing and better communicating on that level.

MJ: FWIW, if it's about sleep only, there are alternatives and tactics/hacks to help sleep along (like red-backlighting your devices after 8pm). If it's the anxiety, by all means. I think you are smart enough to wean the dose. My only concern in what you write would be that you not quit when she wants you to (as you say you would) bc you're not communicating 100% as a couple.

Bigger's post: Why not try the experiment? You quit pot, she complements you, genuinely, at least 2x a day? (as an example, to "fake until you make it" somewhat).... Meaningfully, I might add on her part.

Bids: IMO, you both need to speak up when bids aren't met or just directly ask. I get this with my W sometimes. She wants things, I can most definitely tell, but will beat about the bush hoping I notice bc somehow any more definitive statement wrecks it. In your case, perhaps saying it takes a gloss off but helps you both recognise better what the other wants?

Reassurance: Your wife seems to need a lot. Some narcissistic qualities from her FOO/mother but not backed with anywhere near the same bottomless unquestioning self-esteem ... Perhaps she's sort of "hollow" that way and if IC cant/wont fix it, you could still provide it in an over the top way for an introvert?

"Bc I wont now" and Depression: A different thought. Perhaps she says this for two reasons:

a. with depression you were entirely a different person (or much so) and she didn't like it or the M that came with it entirely. Now that the situation is entirely reset she feels far more comfortable with the M and you in ways she never was before and cannot enunciate? I worded that badly, but do you get my gist?

b. She doesn't know how otherwise to reassure you about something impossible to prove (a negative in the future). I.e. there are no words, but she doesn't know what actions will work beyond consistency (which she seems to be showing) will get that through.

In almost all cases hereabove, I think the communication thing is really lacking. Doesn't have to be MC, but perhaps simple over direct talking?

Now an intrusive suggestion (if the others weren't) ... Just found an article entitled "The Surprising Benefits of Kissing" by Sean Horan about a 2014 study that showed it also reduced cholesterol and stress. I have a heart rate sitting around below 60 (very fit) but high cholesterol (no drugs tho), so my wife who is very tactile has taken to "accepting" more kisses from me to lower my cholesterol (it's her bid of choice really). In any event, my suggestion if you don't already, is that I am not allowed to leave the house or car or her in any way without a small kiss. Plus at least 2-3x per day in passing. Try it, at least your cholesterol will go down?

go well -- IDK

Communications: Perhaps you would both benefit from a communication course (not MC) or retrouvaille or similar or ??? to reinstate communication and intimacy?

Intimacy is not an issue. That's all that I'll say.

Communication is an issue. Mostly with her... although she says it is getting better as the depression become further into the past.

MJ/ Bigger's post: Why not try the experiment? You quit pot, she complements you, genuinely, at least 2x a day? (as an example, to "fake until you make it" somewhat).... Meaningfully, I might add on her part.

I am going to take the week off from MJ. This is not for her; it is for me. You'd have to talk to her about the 2 compliments a day. I doubt that she could do that.

Bids: IMO, you both need to speak up when bids aren't met or just directly ask.

Yes, we are both working on this. She has expressed a desire that I acknowledge her bids. I have definitely improved in this area and she knows it. The fact that I want her to reciprocate is new -- too new say that she does or does not do it.

Reassurance: Your wife seems to need a lot. Some narcissistic qualities from her FOO/mother but not backed with anywhere near the same bottomless unquestioning self-esteem ... Perhaps she's sort of "hollow" that way and if IC cant/wont fix it, you could still provide it in an over the top way for an introvert?

I am openly and strongly affectionate with her. Always.

with depression you were entirely a different person (or much so) and she didn't like it or the M that came with it entirely. Now that the situation is entirely reset she feels far more comfortable with the M and you in ways she never was before and cannot enunciate? I worded that badly, but do you get my gist?

I don't know if I get what you are saying. However, I can say that things are VERY different with the depression under control. I am still trying to adjust to life without depression... it's very different. She is too.

She doesn't know how otherwise to reassure you about something impossible to prove (a negative in the future).

Correct. But I want her to understand that her affair is not my fault. I want her to address her problems. I also want her to recognize that divorce is acceptable, affairs are not.

Plus at least 2-3x per day in passing. Try it, at least your cholesterol will go down?

Not an issue. We kiss often. We are very touchy-feely all of the time (except when socially inappropriate).

Barcher,

You'd have to talk to her about the 2 compliments a day. I doubt that she could do that.

Why me and why not you? Why couldn't she? "Barcher you look great, I really like that shirt I got you on you" and "Thanks for helping with the kids during arsenic hour, you're so great with cajoling X to brush their teeth" ... if I can do it, why can't she....

You're responses on intimacy ( ) imply physically so (good!), but also suggest she should well be able to do this in words to engender (New thing I just made up) communicative intimacy? Or does it make her vulnerable and she doesn't like that specific part? Or simply is it from the years of depression where it was hard?

I don't know if I get what you are saying. However, I can say that things are VERY different with the depression under control. I am still trying to adjust to life without depression... it's very different. She is too.

You got it. It is perhaps an all or mostly new H and M, so perhaps those changes in her mind make it much more worthwhile and so on... The "she is too" implies this...

Now, I find it hard to believe another shot at MC (at least) wouldn't help,solve all this easily and she should want that, which confuses me, but and especially because ....

Correct. But I want her to understand that her affair is not my fault. I want her to address her problems. I also want her to recognize that divorce is acceptable, affairs are not.

I'm sure you've said this point blank, and I suspect she's said so,etching along the lines that she does understand, and said it earnestly. Clearly, to me via words, this is your deal breaker and also the thing that triggers you, if you will, back to these questions.

So, if it's not IC or MC, which failed you inn this regard before, what would truly truly convince you of her understanding of these things, and what is it worth to you to get it? How do you think you might reach this goal? Is it just time and consistent actions?

Oh, and the MJ, imo, and I'm biased, good for you! If you ever want getting to sleep tips I've got them. I wake up a lot, so staying asleep I suck at, but, getting there!

I've enjoyed the conversation, I hope you've found it useful, and apologiesmif not...

Go well -- idk

I'm sure you've said this point blank,

I'll start with this because it applies to most everything that I say to my wife. I am very direct, perhaps to the point of being inappropriate. It was certainly a problem with the depression because there was often a hint of anger associated with my honesty.

Why me and why not you? Why couldn't she? "Barcher you look great, I really like that shirt I got you on you" and "Thanks for helping with the kids during arsenic hour, you're so great with cajoling X to brush their teeth" ... if I can do it, why can't she....

See the above comment. I have directly told her that I need compliments on occasion, repeatedly going back at least 10 years. She has always been good at sharing criticisms (I can handle that), but it gets old only hearing the bad and never the good. When I ask for compliments, she'll try for a day or two but then go back to her own ways.

This is an example of what I call "imitation parenting" (which sounds worse). But, in general, kids don't listen to what you say very much, but they learn to imitate their parents. In this case, my WW imitates her mother, who I have never heard her say a positive/complimentary thing about anyone, ever.

Or does it make her vulnerable and she doesn't like that specific part? Or simply is it from the years of depression where it was hard?

I think that she was raised to never should vulnerability to her spouse (see above). Certainly, the depression made it a lot worse.

It is perhaps an all or mostly new H and M, so perhaps those changes in her mind make it much more worthwhile and so on... The "she is too" implies this...

There is no arguing that my depression damaged her and she is still licking her wounds, so to speak. There are a couple of on-going threads initiated by female members of SI whose husbands are just plain bat-shit crazy. (I'd name them except for the SI policy of calling out people... I don't need another warning) I'd like to think that I wasn't as bad as these guys, but maybe I was.

To give you an example of how different this is for me, I am spending the weekend alone with my daughter at a lake cabin. It has been cold and rainy continuously, thus it is kind of a shitty weekend. It feels like the "best weekend ever" in comparison to life with depression. I literally told my wife that yesterday morning.

So, if it's not IC or MC, which failed you inn this regard before, what would truly truly convince you of her understanding of these things, and what is it worth to you to get it? How do you think you might reach this goal? Is it just time and consistent actions?

IC and MC failed as far as dealing with the infidelity. The MC was good as far as garden-variety marriage counseling. She dealt with a bunch of our communication issues, both speaking out and listening (the 'bids' stuff... that was learned at MC). Right now, I don't see a point in going to MC until we put into practice what we have already learned. So, yeah, time and consistent actions.

Oh, and the MJ, imo, and I'm biased, good for you! If you ever want getting to sleep tips I've got them. I wake up a lot, so staying asleep I suck at, but, getting there!

LOL. If you need sleeping tips, try a strongly indica strain of MJ. It really really works.

I normally do okay with sleeping.

I've enjoyed the conversation, I hope you've found it useful, and apologiesmif not...

I've enjoyed it too. Thanks for the input -- I appreciate it.

[This message edited by barcher144 at 7:40 AM, May 21st (Sunday)]

Two things and one for fun:

There is no arguing that my depression damaged her and she is still licking her wounds, so to speak.

I think that she was raised to never should vulnerability to her spouse (see above).

Right now, I don't see a point in going to MC until we put into practice what we have already learned.

Maybe the first two are the basis of a conversation on what's important to each of you to build on - the "must or really want to haves". Yes, depression does not excuse the A in any way, but you both have healing to do from each other's damage. Rather than put a scale on it, how about talking with her about how to heal each other directly via time and consistent specific actions?

I.e. if not MC, how about a joint plan to work on together complete with reminder notes... In particular, given your W's "imitation parenting" (not a bad phrase the way you defined it, btw) she's going to have to "fake it until she makes it" to change I suspect. Perhaps you too around some things. as you grow into the "new you". Like using more words rather than blunt directness? You could both be winners.

I'd also note the other thing I was thinking yesterday when I wrote you was "I wonder if barcher and his W ever talk about their future, not the future or their kids future or the future of their M after the A, but their future, goals, dreams and the like, or if that intimacy is missing" .. Shared dreams go far and I suspect are destroyed by the A, but perhaps they are also a part of reshaping that future in R (eventually if not now).

It feels like the "best weekend ever" in comparison to life with depression. I literally told my wife that yesterday morning.

Awesome! What did your W say? Sounds like she *does* have a new H, which is good for you both.

LOL. If you need sleeping tips, try a strongly indica strain of MJ.

Long ago in a life far far away from the New Zealand I live in now... It's not as legal here as where you are and I don't like supporting motorcycle gangs (our entrepreneurs of choice it seems), so I stick with Belgian and Belgian style beer with the occasional single malt.. My own form of self medication.

Go well -- IDK