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Tired, can I ask again why you posed question #2?

Were you the original WS and your BS had an "RA"?

TOTALLY UNINFORMED SPECULATION WARNING:

The reason I ask is that it almost sounds like you're trying to find support to throw back in your BS's face that what they did was as bad, or maybe even worse.

Idk seward different strokes for different folks I guess, maybe it’s generally different for men vs women, but not always. Of course I was attached and faithful to my wife prior to her affair, but it doesn’t mean that I wasn’t a human who found other women desirable or sexually attractive like any guy would. I just valued my wife, our marriage, and honesty more than I did the obvious fun aspect of sex with new women... hence not a cheater...once she made or marriage open, , what was the point of me continuing to uphold her with respect if she didn’t do the same? I didn’t want to suffer in humiliation and take it on the chin just to say that I upheld my vows like they were some magical powerful entity that defined me as a person. Too grandiose for me. She threw the vows out the window, what good would it do me to suffer in silence and carry the burden? This is where we differ I think. I didn’t sleep with other women exclusively to punish her, ( although one I did to punish the OM, his BW) i did it because I always enjoyed having sex, and put aside natural attractions in the name of something I thought was sacred and cherished... when she turned it to ash, why wouldn’t i enjoy the freedom i exchanged for marriage? The marriage wasn’t worth it, is what I had come to beleive. Also want to point out that I am in a new exclusive relationship, and we have both been victims of infidelity. I have no desire or intentions to cheat on her, despite finding other women attractive, and I think that’s healthily normal. My values are firmly in place, and I presume, to the degree that I can, that she feels the same way. So I don’t inherently beleive that I have the issues that cause most people to cheat, although by law, technically I am a cheater.

[This message edited by nicenomore at 2:50 PM, January 22nd (Monday)]

silver - i think it's the other way around.

nice, yeah ppl are different that is for sure.

Thanks Sewardak.

The closer to home the affair person is (close friend/family) the worse, then you are being betrayed by 2 people you trust not just one, also it usually means a split of the family or friendships, where someone you don't know seems cleaner on the back end. Either way no matter who your spouse cheats with it's still a shit sandwich , a friend or family member just makes the smell worse.

To me I think an RA would be a confidence booster especially for a man, I know my self esteem especially in the bedroom took a hit.

The original A is worse it led the marriage down the path where the BS would even consider a RA call it the gateway drug.

That said it would bring me down to her level, well maybe not with just one affair she's still up on me by a few. LOL

[This message edited by trainedmonkey at 3:01 PM, January 22nd (Monday)]

TiredSoul - I originally responded on Friday, and I was a bit triggered and peeved at the question. My response probably wasn't helpful at all. I apologize. I've read some of your posts and thought more about this.

The definition of a Revenge Affair is up to interpretation. If it's about getting revenge, I can't see how that's even possible.

You could give the metaphor of an affair as a spouse whacking you upside the back of the head with a stick when you're not looking. Being blindsided is part of what is so painful to a BS. After revealing an affair, a WS knows an affair is possible, so you lose that side of the revenge. And if a WS is so damaged as to believe that whacking someone upside the back of the head (or having an affair) is an appropriate way to deal with a problem, well they are probably not going to feel as bad if you do it too.

Did your earlier posts say your BS affair was 12 years ago and yours is recent? Also, your descriptions of him sounds controlling and mean. If that's true, I wouldn't consider it a revenge affair. It sounds more like you and your marriage didn't heal. Maybe that's more like an exit affair or just a plain dysfunctional affair and way of coping. Bless you and I hope you find healing and peace.

If two businesses have a contract between them, and one business breaks that contract - is the contract then void?

This about sums it up in my opinion. I can't think of a more accurate metaphor.

I'm no lawyer but I'd guess its void and you can sue them for remuneration of the undeliverables. But, I can't think of the undelivered good/service in my arrangement unless its sex and I'd rather stick my dick into a blender than try and recover that from XWW!

Silver, I think maybe you're missing me again here.

First, you indicated that you weren't religious...essentially.

But context is everything - you responded to my post (and I'm not religious) by invoking that language. Hence I pointed out that I didn't find that persuasive.

But no, I don't think religion (or lack thereof) has the slightest impact on morality, honesty, etc.

Then somewhat later, you said this:

Regarding the vows, once again, that seems to me to be a matter of whether you're looking at it from a religious standpoint.

Otherwise, those words are really only ritualistic in nature, a cultural thing that stays around because of tradition. Kind of like how the oath is administered to all witnesses in some places on the Bible or before "god", etc. Or how some legal documents like Subpoenas say something like "The People of the State of STATE, Free by the Grace of God".

I couldn't have cared less in terms of what the specifics of the vows were, so I just deferred to my W. She wanted to be married in a church and to have the religious / traditional vows, and I know my mother appreciates that stuff as well. Since it wasn't something I had any strong opinion on, I wasn't going to make an issue. I wasn't going to melt just because I walked into a church, said certain words, and so on.

And I responded with something that was essentially a paraphrased recap of what I thought I understood you to be saying. I even said that your take on that business reminds me of my own WIFE's take on it, as she's expressed her side of this very thing to me somewhat recently (even though she comes out very differently on this stuff NOW, twenty-two years later).

I realize that your wife didn't respect her "vows" or see them as binding since she violated them horribly and repeatedly behind your back. But that is somewhat irrespective of the topic point at hand. My wife did the same thing to me albeit not in exactly the same way. My guess is that you simply do not see the vows as being anything outside of a "double-or-nothing" deal and cannot even see the perspective or point that I (and Sewerdak, I think, too) was making about the INDIVIDUAL's integrity in making & keeping that vow when it is so specific in it's working and subsequent exemptions.

To wit (quoted from Wikipedia using the tagline "Marriage Vows"):

In the time of the Roman Empire (17 BC – 476 AD) the lower classes had "free" marriages. The bride's father would deliver her to the groom, and the two agreed that they were wed, and would keep the vow of marriage by mutual consent. Wealthy Romans, though, would sign documents listing property rights to publicly declare that their union was legalized and not a common law marriage. This was the beginning of the official recording of marriage[citation needed].

The oldest traditional wedding vows can be traced back to the manuals of the medieval church. In England, there were manuals of the dioceses of Salisbury (Sarum) and York. The compilers of the first Book of Common Prayer, published in 1549, based its marriage service mainly on the Sarum manual.[2][3] Upon agreement to marry, the Church of England usually offered couples a choice. The couple could promise each other to "love and cherish" or, alternatively, the groom promises to "love, cherish, and worship", and the bride to "love, cherish, and obey".[4]

Christianity[edit]

Roman Catholic[edit]

Couples wedding in the Roman Catholic Church essentially make the same pledge to one another. According to the Rite of Marriage (#25) the customary text in English is:[5]

I, ____, take you, ____, to be my (husband/wife). I promise to be true to you in good times and in bad, in sickness and in health. I will love you and honour you all the days of my life.

In the United States, Catholic wedding vows may also take the following form:[5]

I, ____, take you, ____, to be my lawfully wedded (husband/wife), to have and to hold, from this day forward, for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, until death do us part.

The priest will then say aloud "You have declared your consent before the Church. May the Lord in his goodness strengthen your consent and fill you both with his blessings. What God has joined, men must not divide. Amen."[6]

Anglican[edit]

The law in England authorizes marriages to be legal if properly carried out and registered in the Church of England and some other religious bodies (e.g. Jewish, Quakers): other men and women who wish to marry can be married by a local official authorized to do so (civil ceremony). Circumstances may result in the same partners having both ceremonies at different times, though this is rare. The vows, presence of witnesses, and civil registration are absolute requirements under the law.

Civil ceremonies often allow couples to choose their own marriage vows, although many civil marriage vows are adapted from the traditional vows, taken from the Book of Common Prayer, "To have and to hold from this day forward, for better for worse, for richer for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish, till death us do part."[7]

They were first published in English in the prayer book of 1549, based on earlier Latin texts (the Sarum and York Rituals of the medieval period). An older version of the final phrase is " until death us depart" where "depart" means "separate". "Until death us depart" had to be changed due to changes in the usage of "depart" in the Prayer Book of 1662. In the 1928 prayer book (not authorized) and in editions of the 1662 prayer book printed thereafter "obey" was retained (in the 1928 book an alternative version omitted this). The 1928 revised form of Matrimony was quite widely adopted, though the form of 1662 was also widely used, though less so after the introduction of the Alternative Service Book.

The original wedding vows, as printed in The Book of Common Prayer, are:

Groom: I,____, take thee,_____, to be my wedded Wife, to have and to hold from this day forward, for better for worse, for richer for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish, till death us do part, according to God's holy ordinance; and thereto I plight thee my troth.

Bride: I,_____, take thee,_____, to be my wedded Husband, to have and to hold from this day forward, for better for worse, for richer for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love, cherish, and to obey, till death us do part, according to God's holy ordinance; and thereto I give thee my troth.

Then, as the groom places the ring on the bride's finger, he says the following:

With this Ring I thee wed, with my body I thee worship, and with all my worldly goods I thee endow: In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen.

In the Alternative Service Book (1980) two versions of the vows are included: the bride and groom must select one of the versions only. Version A:

I, ____, take you, ____, to be my wife (or husband), to have and to hold from this day forward, for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish, till death us do part, according to God's holy law, and this is my solemn vow.

Version B is identical except for the clause "to love and to cherish" where the groom says "to love, cherish, and worship" and the bride says "to love, cherish, and obey".[8]

Since 2000 the service in Common Worship the normal vows are as follows:

I,N, take you, N, to be my wife (or husband), to have and to hold from this day forward, for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish, till death us do part, according to God's holy law, in the presence of God I make this vow.

However, the bride and groom may choose to replace the clause "to love and to cherish" with "to love, cherish, and obey" when the bride makes her vows.[9]

On September 12, 1922, the Episcopal Church voted to remove the word "obey" from the bride's section of wedding vows. Other churches of the Anglican Communion each have their own authorized prayer books which in general follow the vows described above though the details and languages used do vary.

there is NO mention in the traditional vows (Catholic or [Protestant]) themselves as giving an out for adultery or for whether the other participant/vowing-party is faithful or being honest in agreeing to them or keeping them or NOT. Those exceptions that most everyone cites are OUTSIDE of the terms and wording of the (traditional) vows themselves. Not within the terms of the agreement(s) being sworn to. Maybe it's all implied to you and to most people out there that such commitments are only as good as the other person's/the weakest link's integrity. But as you stated yourself, I am a "religious" person after a fashion, and since my beliefs not only make any vows I say (and intend at the time to keep) as being a binding thing...I also have the belief that marriage itself is a kind of representation of a higher principle and relationship between God and His bride--the church.

That raises all kinds of religious implications I realize, but my take on Him and His character is that He 1) keeps His Word and His promises, oaths, and vows; 2) He expects others (especially supposed followers/children of His) to do that too; 3) that His integrity and vow-keeping is not dependent upon others' faithfulness or integrity; 4) that He wants people to treat others like they want to be treated or dealt with--particularly when they say that they "love" each other and commit to such in marriage and with vows and stuff.

Some people and even people groups don't take these vows. And I pointed out earlier in this thread that even the people in the BIBLE didn't have these as such for their OWN wedding ceremonies since they weren't drafted up until after the 1500's or later. Maybe your "vows" were worded differently than these. Me and my wife drafted up our OWN custom worded vows separately, as I indicated earlier, for that matter. But our vows did reflect this absolute indissolubility (death-only) aspect, nonetheless.

While those bullet points are essentially "religious" sounding, they are also how I perceive vows and marriage concepts to be based on and originated from, so I can't easily separate those views from my own since they are synonymous.

Since you seem so not feel similarly about those things, I am only trying to understand your views on vows and integrity and honesty rather than trying to oppose you in some religious sense or convince you of being wrong and me being right or whatever.

But regarding my comments about your post that you quoted, I was saying that my own wife felt the way that I was saying there about the parrot/formality/ceremonial aspect of the death clause/vow thing...and we are reconciled for twenty-two years now and also "in love" as well, so it wasn't something I was meaning to be ugly towards you about.

If I am unclear about your view on the validity or applicability or "double-or-nothing" aspect of your own wedding vows after having read my explanation of what I understand YOU to be meaning by your posts and my reiteration of them as to what you're essentially saying thereby, then please by all means correct my misunderstanding there. But I guess I need some kind of reasoning spelled out a little more clearly than I was getting in the preceding posts if I'm still wrong about your take on all of this.

[This message edited by Cephastion at 4:26 PM, January 22nd (Monday)]

RA's - two wrongs don't make a right.

If adultery were still a crime BOTH people would be found guilty.

If someone breaks into my house and steals my TV, and I break into their house to steal something back -- we both both go to jail.

If someone cuts me off in traffic, nearly kills us both, and I do the same to them -- and a cop or witness see it -- we both get tickets.

Just because I've been wronged, I don't instantly gain a brand new 'right' to wrong the person who committed the original offense.

As with any crime or offense against us (felony punch in the face, house set on fire, whatever), if we do the same, we're still in the wrong.

Any rationalization to feel good about making a bad choice is merely a rationalization. Did the "hey THEY started it" defense ever work as a kid?

[This message edited by Oldwounds at 4:30 PM, January 22nd (Monday)]

Silverlining

sorry I am just seeing these posts asking why I asked.

Well bc my H cheated first. when I was PG with our first child. Only I didn't even know about that one until just a few months ago. That was a COW I have never seen and don't know her.

But two years ago he had an EA with a woman who befriended me. Our families hangout, our kids were friends. She isn't faceless. I know her I see her and it tortures me.

That EA ruined me. Legit I should have gotten therapy but I self medicated with booze and exercise. and then I had an A. a year ago.

I am not saying that my A is "less" awful. But I guess honestly I feel like he broke the vows. we had no marriage so in some respects I justified it to myself. Just was curious what others thought.

Justify - the operative word in being a wayward. Where do you guys stand now?

He may have been a shit husband but you have to own your side of the fence, even if yours was an exit affair.

Tired- of course you may feel guilt for what you did. It’s because you are not a morally bankrupt person or a sociopath. I too feel guilt for hurting my EX even AFTER she hurt me. And I can completely sympathize with feeling broken by his cheating first. I would never have even sought the comfort of other women if my wife hadn’t humiliated and disrespected me to my core. And for what it’s worth, I’ve never been unfaithful prior to, or after that. So it’s understandable that you feel that way. But it’s important to recognize that you need to heal for yourself. And frankly from what you have said, he sounds abusive which is wholeheartedly unacceptable. You deserve better.

"t. I would never have even sought the comfort of other women if my wife hadn’t humiliated and disrespected me to my core. "

If other ppls actions have this much influence on you then you probably need work on yourself. It's one thing to be hurt yet another to throw yourself to the wind.

sewardak

I agree with what he said about it hurting to the core. And yes a healthier person would have gone to counseling then and not cheated but the pain and humiliation I felt were unbearable and I sought other ways to feel better. Booze and attention. Horrible mix and I OWN my errors. I did justify but I do not now.

I know that I SHOULD HAVE gone to IC, MC or divorced him instead I leveled the playing field and lost my self

tired take care of yourself!

I'm kinda glad to hear your version of the thing for your part, TiredSoul, because I'm kinda guessing that most Mad Hatters on here congregate and coagulate such testimonials to the dedicated MH thread which I rarely visit and peruse.

Some of the MH'ers on the other forum categories seem to be so self-confident and without much regret over their RA's that it gets to seem like a safer bet for regaining one's self-esteem and self-respect rather than the "high road" people (like myself) who never feel completely satisfied or at rest with their own side of the equation.

As I said earlier, I am not interested in a RA in concept. I saved my sexuality for marriage with someone I felt like being intimate enough to share the rest of my entire LIFE with rather than just some random person that I managed to "score" with.

But what does drive my own curiosity is envy and feeling like I'm missing something as well as justice and some sense of response on my own part that fits the crime of having been trashed and traitored on without any real proactive response of equal force or weight (not necessarily a destructive one, but a "force" or "response" nonetheless).

I feel like she got all she can and canned all she got, and more particularly so did the MEN that she so willingly screwed to their hearts' content--all while she was going NO CONTACT with ME while going FULL CONTACT (and then some) with THEM!

Hearing that a RA is for some merely an exercise resulting in only FURTHER LOSS of-and-to one's own self, as opposed to the "glad I did it" crowd kinda helps me feel like the prison cell I'm trapped in (conscience and vows and faith and all) isn't quite as awful in it's confinements and amenities as it sometimes feels like it is.

[This message edited by Cephastion at 8:04 AM, January 23rd (Tuesday)]

#1 My wife cheated on me with her toxic ex-gf. She even said she knew just as she was making that fatal choice to go ahead with seeing her ex that because it was her ex, this one person, that it would devastate me. I often think if my wife had met someone that she developed common interests with (biking, kayaking, fishing) and had an affair with, it would have been easier, because I could see how she might feel benefited or enriched. But her ex is a wimpy, whiney, snivelly, mentally screwed-up woman who treated my wife horribly during their split. She really had nothing to offer, except opportunity for my wife to escape her own stressed reality. Plus, my wife knew it took me years to not feel somewhat intimidated by her ex, simply because I was newly "out" and didn't share a lot of the same experiences that they did. I am beginning to believe I will never be able to forgive my wife for bringing her ex into our marriage narrative. It was the ONE THING in the world she knew would devastate me, and she went ahead and did it anyway!

#2 I don't endorse or think revenge affairs are ever a good idea, although I understand the compelling motivation for some. I think the precipitating affair, however, is still the original cheater's fault, and they bear the burden for destroying the marriage.

I think a double betrayal is the worst thing. I knew my WH’s COW - not well, but I knew her. That was bad enough. If it would have been a close friend or family member, I can’t even imagine the pain.

Revenge affairs I think are easily understood, although not a choice I would make. After dday, most Betrayeds have awful coping skills. Their entire world is upside down. I developed a bit of a drinking problem and and a bit of an eating disorder - not healthy coping skills. Some lash out with hurtful words or violence. A lot of people even have to go on antidepressants to get through the pain - which is a much healthier way to get through it.

Once the door has been opened, it’s hard to say, “sorry, only I get to go have an extramarital relationship, you stay loyal now BS.” That’s just about the most ridiculous thing ever. However, if it was something I really wanted to do, I wouldn’t lie, I would just tell WH my intentions. It would be up to him if he were ok with that. In a reconciled marriage, there should be no more lying.

If I was out for true revenge, I would wait until I knew he was thoroughly invested, and then let him catch me in the act - and I’d make it somewhere he cared about too. That would actually be revenge. IMO, revenge affairs don’t make sense to raise your self esteem - that should come from within.

Tired, thanks for clarifying that. When I first read your post, I thought that it was from an original WS, which changes a lot in terms of analyzing the motive behind the question.

Meaning, if it was an original WS asking your question, it annoyed me thinking that the WS asking the question would be trying to retroactively justify their A because the BS became a MH after they blew up the M.

If other ppls actions have this much influence on you then you probably need work on yourself. It's one thing to be hurt yet another to throw yourself to the wind

.

Seward- selecting certain statements out of context to try and align them with your sanctimonious narrative for being a moral high horse martyr isn’t going to help the OP hurt any less, nor is it going to add clarity to the context of my story.

We all know “other people” and the person we thought was our soul mate are in different camps as to how much we are influenced... the kid bagging my groceries at the supermarket probably isn’t going to influence me all that much. The woman who I thought was going to be the mother of My children? Yeah I’d say I was little more vulnerable to her actions.

So I’ll clarify. I made the rational, personal, and consciencously informed decision after dday to live for ME. I didn’t throw myself to the wind. I got up, strapped on my boots, and marched out into the world i deserved. I don’t regret sleeping with other women, and I don’t regret how much sense of understanding i gained from realizing There are people out there who treat us Far better than our spouses did. I do regret the hurt my wife’s suffered but frankly it wasn’t a relatively small price to pay for me escaping the torment I imagine you are still in daily taking your route you feel is the one of most integrity.

I am not perfect, but I am happier now than I ever was staying with the cheater. Can you say you know what else your life could have been? Or are you so committed to being righteous as the victim that’s you don’t see that there are paths we take in this life that are different from one another, and that’s ok.

I didn’t come here to knock your path, as I mentioned “different strokes for different folks”, but you seem entitled to condescend to me about mine. Leaving my ex wife was the best thing I ever did after she betrayed me. And frankly, meeting new women was instrumental in me getting back to My former self. Confident, light hearted, and happy. The only technical wrong I committed was that my marriage wasn’t officially, by law, terminated. So be it if you somehow imagine that makes me morally depraved and a sinner. I can’t imagine you don’t suffer regularly with the everlasting sting of what your husband did and staying with him, but if it makes you feel better Knowing that you aren’t like him, i sincerely hope it gets better for you every day.